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Legion Buff -- Deep Wound change; Adds new secondary power -- Mob Mentality
(Thanks @UlvenDagoth for the inspiration.)
Here's my idea to help with, imo, Legion's two main problems:
* For killers, that’s getting a second hit and downing the survivor.
* For survivors, it's having to mend, which is boring and makes Legion obnoxious to go against.
My solution -- Change the Deep Wound status effect and give Legion a secondary power -- Mob Mentality.
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Feral Frenzy:
Hitting a survivor not affected by the Deep Wound status effect during Feral Frenzy applies DW and gives Legion 1 charge of Mob Mentality.
Deep Wound now applies a 20 percent penalty to repair, healing and sabotage speeds.
Survivors now remove the DW status effect by healing to full health, not by mending. DW lasts indefinitely.
Hitting a survivor affected by DW during Feral Frenzy applies 1 more DW. Survivors suffering from 4 Deep Wounds will enter the dying state. This will be tracked on the HUD.
Legion cannot use Mob Mentality during Feral Frenzy.
Legion can have up to 3 charges of Mob Mentality at one time.
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Mob Mentality:
Press the secondary power button to use 1 charge and summon a Legion member.
Any survivor within 16 meters of Legion will hear an audio cue -- a whistle -- when Mob Mentality is used.
The Legion member will appear 2 seconds later, crouched down in the spot you summoned him or her and wait for any survivor to get within range. When a survivor is within range, the Legion member will lunge at the survivor and attempt to hit them.
If a healthy survivor is hit, he or she will be injured; if an injured survivor is hit, he or she will enter the dying state.
Regardless of whether the hit connects, the Legion member will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.
Legion can summon all three other members this way. If Legion summons a member while all three members are currently on the map, the first member to be summoned will switch to the new location. Legion cannot summon members within 8 meters of another member.
Survivors within 16 meters of Legion members can detect them by looking in their direction for 3 seconds. During detection, survivors will receive an audio cue. Once fully detected, the Legion members will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.
If a survivor sets off a Mob Mentality trap, the Legion receives an audio and visual cue. If survivors fully detect a Legion member, the Legion does not receive an audio and visual cue.
Also, Mob Mentality is a trap so perks, such as Small Game, will work against it.
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Add-on changes to reflect the new Deep Wound status effect and Mob Mentality:
Smiley Face Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality.
Defaced Smiley Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 3 seconds.
The Legion Pin -- Start with 2 charges of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 5 seconds.
Nasty Blade -- Slightly increases the penalty to Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (5 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.
Filthy Blade -- Moderately increases the penalty to Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (10 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.
Frank’s Mixed Tape -- Legion members are invisible to survivors outside of 8 meters.
Fuming Mixed Tape -- Legion no longer needs charges to use Mob Mentality. MM now has a 10-second cooldown. The Legion can no longer use Feral Frenzy.
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This will allow Legion to still be a rush down killer and buffs them by providing them a tool -- Mob Mentality -- to counter looping, as well as set ambushes.
This new change also allows Legion to use Mob Mentality whenever Legion wants (albeit not in Feral Frenzy), and the survivor will only be aware that Legion has used MM if the survivor is within 16 meters of Legion when MM is used.
The change to the DW status effect also means survivors no longer have to worry about mending. Survivors suffering from DW can heal themselves back to full health slightly slower than normal or the survivor can find a teammate not suffering from DW to heal back to full health without any speed penalty -- making going against Legion more enjoyable for survivors.
(This also would get rid of a few not strictly Legion problems: Nurse’s Calling not detecting mending and other anti-healing perks not affecting mending, and killers who can drop their terror radiuses like Freddy and The Pig making the DW timer tick down while still chasing a survivor, which feels cheap.)
(Borrowed Time can be changed to something like: After unhooking a Survivor within the Killer's Terror Radius, for 11/13/15 seconds, any damage taken that would put the unhooked Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound status effect.)
Plus, I think it would be awesome for Legion to actually play like, you know, a Legion! Lastly, if possible, it would be extremely cool if the teammates you summoned could wear any cosmetics you’ve acquired, making it so you could customize the look of your own Legion.
Comments
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..... OH MY GODDESS THAT SOUNDS COOL!
That's some good thinking there! You get to keep the rush down with FF but then you get a bit of a Trap play too. I love the idea of cosmetics carrying over AND it keeps the reason to buy them for the Devs!
I love the idea of any power that makes a lunge kinda thing. I've lobbied for Doc to get illusions to lunge to scare survivors... BUT HOLY CRAP! The thought of a survivor losing Deep wounds, getting confused then getting jumped by Joe with a heavy slash from triggering the trap! Woo!
I've always wanted to have them work TOGETHER but I couldn't get the idea to work in my head BUT THIS IS AMAZING! Ahhh! I wish the Devs would comment and see all this! All of the ideas here are so good!
The only question I have is, would Legion have an alert to let them know one of the other members have been "banished"?
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Wow. Thanks man!!! :) I'm a little biased, hehe, but I too would love it if this would be implemented. I would actually start playing Legion again. I read about that Doctor lunge idea last week and thought it was cool. I'm sure it was in the back of my head and helped me come up with this idea.
I don't have a strong opinion on whether Legion should be alerted or not. I could go either way.
Right now, here's what I'm leaning toward though. If the survivor sets off the Mob Mentality trap, the Legion gets some kind of audio and/or visual cue. If the survivor fully detects the trap, the Legion doesn't get notified.
This way Legion gets rewarded for good and hard to spot trap placement and the survivors get rewarded for good detection.
What do you think?
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Good ideas! The only other thing is what is the minimum range that the "Stare at trap and make it go bye bye" thing would come into effect? I might Edit my first post to include this in it so people see it first! (Crediting you of course!)
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Ok. Thanks! Sure. Feel free to do that.
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Damn, this is pretty creative. A good addition taking advantage on the whole 'we are legion' theme without making it a complete rework, love that aspect of it.
That being said, I don't think tying it to DW this hard is a good idea. Remotely removing DW from a survivor sounds clunky and unintuitive for one.
And this would mean that the trap placing would announce itself with bright red light. Which sounds fine in theory since counterplay and all the jazz but we can already kinda see how it would play out through the example of all the trap killers that are in the game.
The moment DW is gone survivors will ran far away from the area the Legion player is currently at, potentially taking a mental note to come back and 'disarm' the trap once they are safe. IF Legion just hits them and not chases them they will start mending immediately depriving Legion of the chance to ever place a trap in the first place.
So in the end they wouldn't do much beside having a very small area denial effect?
Traps are only really effective if the survivor doesn't see you place it. Like look at pallet Freddy, fake pallets are 100% useless when placed in a chase, they only work if you set them up beforehand and even then, good survivors will avoid, find and disarm them.
I dunno, personally I'd just let Legion place his buddies from the getgo and maybe make it so they can only hit injured or DW survivors? Kinda like how in the lore they ganged up on one victim, all taking turns after the leader (Frank) stabbed him.
And I'd tackle the mending problem separately.
Also, Mob Mentality is a trap so perks, such as Small Game, will work against it.
Tbh I don't see what's the point of that if survivors would get an audio clue when looking at a Legion trap anyway :B
But yeah, as I said, kudos for thinking outside the box.
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Yeah! He put the idea in my Legion thread! Can you add this in there or would you like to come by and give some feedback to the ideas posted there?
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I like the idea of having traps for Legion since it works with the playstyle. Legion is an information killer, and must act on it quickly. Setting up ambushes makes sense with their lore anyway, so I'm surprised it wasn't there...
I would advise instead of just disappearing in smoke, that they attack then run away behind cover before vanishing. That way it feels like there is more than one killer is in the map at once. It'd require a bit of coding on the Dev's part, but I think this suggestion would give Legion a non frustrating element to them.
Oh, and maybe they chase after the survivor that triggers the trap until they get hit or they miss. That'd be cool too.
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Good Idea! Can I put this in my thread too?
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Sounds unique and cool conceptually! The one issue is that you switched THE most annoying mechanic, for the second most annoying mechanic, and that's the detection mechanic. Which is buggy and inconsistent. Maybe it'd be different if they're still, but knowing this game, it'll be messy.
Still love the idea though, I'd love to at least see it in action.
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Sure, go ahead. More discussion the better. : P
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Thanks a lot for the feedback!
Maybe I can change your mind about a few things.
1) Having Small Game work against Mob Mentality would be very beneficial for survivors. If The Legion player is smart, they'd use MM next to vaults and doorways so survivors won't see the traps before the survivors have crossed the threshold and taken the hit. Small Game alerts them that there is a Legion member there without having to see them.
As for the audio cue for detecting MM, this would only trigger after after a brief amount of time of the survivor holding the camera on the Legion member like it does for Ghostface so the survivor will actually have to spot them.
2) When Mob Mentality is used, survivors need some way to know. If not, MM will be way too OP as no survivor would ever be able to loop anything. For example, anytime a survivor started to loop, Legion would simply use MM, the unknowing survivor would continue the loop and either get hit by MM or turn around and get hit by The Legion.
3) I like The Legion using active DW status effects for charges of MM. Here's why: A. No survivor likes mending. Therefore, when Legion uses MM, the DW-affected survivors can start playing again. B. It keeps Legion from having two powers with cooldowns, which would be be annoying for the player. C. It provides a visual cue (disappearance of DW bar) that survivors will have to pay attention too, rather than an audio cue (such as The Legion whistling for a teammate to come). Looping a good killer is hard and having to pay attention to one more thing makes it even harder. D. Conceptually, it makes sense. "Hey, Joe. I've really injured this survivor. Come here and help me finish the job." E. It rewards The Legion for successfully hitting survivors with FF, giving The Legion MM, and rewards survivors for successfully evading Legion, denying The Legion MM.
4) Survivors knowing you've placed a trap is only a bad thing if The Legion uses MM poorly. If Legion pushes the survivor to an area with only 2 paths, he uses MM to block one of the paths and moves the other way to block the other path. And if the survivor gets to a strong loop, Legion can use MM to force the survivor away from it.
5) After hitting a survivor with FF, if you leave that survivor and chase after another survivor, The Legion has until that survivor completes the mend action to use MM, by default 15 seconds. That's more than enough time to get close to another survivor, use MM, circle around the other direction, hit that survivor with FF, and chase that survivor back in the direction of where you used MM and get the down.
Anyway thanks again. Whatever the Devs decide to do with Legion, doing something with all Legion members would be cool.
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That would be neat too. My concept of Mob Mentality essentially being mines that detonate when survivors get close is to make it as simple as possible for the Devs to implement, but if they'd be willing to do more, I'd be all for that.
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My ONLY issue with this is that getting rid of the mending would kill the only SLIGHT slow down Legion has. That and if Survivors just mend quickly, then you lose your power in a way. It always feels like by the time I hit someone else, that the first is mended...
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Thanks! If there's a better way to detect MM and disarm it, I'd be all for that. However, I don't think the detection mechanic would be that annoying in this case since the Legion members do not move and do not hide behind anything. The reason Ghostface is annoying to detect is that he's a moving target that's weaving in and out of objects.
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Yeah, it would be a trade-off. Legion becomes more lethal but doesn't slowdown the game as much. One option, you could use the Filthy Blade add-on to give yourself more time to use MM. You also wouldn't have to use MM at all and play normally. And for example, let's say you already have all 3 Legion members on the map and hit someone with FF, you don't have to use MM and can force them to mend.
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I thought more about what you said and changed Deep Wounds to Marked for Death.
I think this is more in line with what you suggested. What do you think?
Thanks
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Hmm, I can see that alleviate my issues with the whole 'DW remote removal is clunky'.
However, wouldn't that just make Legion and vs Legion gameplay more shallow? I mean the first version offered you a choice to set a trap or let the survivor waste their time mending which, after thinking a bit more about it, is actually a neat dilemma, even if it isn't a particularly balanced trade-off imo.
Also, without the DW effect I have a hard time justifying the fact that you can't down injured people with FF. I mean if it can put you from healthy to injured then why can't it put you from injured to down.
1) I mean I wasn't saying it's a bad idea, just that depending on how obvious the Legion traps would be it could be a superfluous benefit.
For example, anytime a survivor started to loop, Legion would simply use MM
I mean not really since FF has a 20s cd and a missed attack cancels it, that honestly already puts a massive limiter on the power. And since it can be prevented with mending you can't just stock up on traps.
Imagine if the Trapper could only pick up a trap once every 20s and also needed to hit someone before the prompt appears.
I'll, however, agree that it doesn't sound a fun thing to go up against, going down to an unpredictable and unannounced trap would be frustrating. If FF was made lot less punishing and far mory dynamic (like for example, usable partially charged and stuff) then I would have no qualms about notifiying the survivor about the trap placement.
A. No survivor likes mending. Therefore, when Legion uses MM, the DW-affected survivors can start playing again.
I mean they would still have to mend this way, it'd actually be more important than currently as you'd be able to prevent the placement of traps.
It provides a visual cue (disappearance of DW bar) that survivors will have to pay attention too
Well, the DW bar isn't the only visual cue: while inflicted with DW the survivor's screen gets a greytone shader and a 'random blood splatter' effect. Noticing DW is gone wouldn't require you to pay special attention as your entire sceen would change.
D. Conceptually, it makes sense. "Hey, Joe. I've really injured this survivor. Come here and help me finish the job." E. It rewards The Legion for successfully hitting survivors with FF, giving The Legion MM, and rewards survivors for successfully evading Legion, denying The Legion MM.
Fair points :>
4) Kind of a valid point. A power should require some skill and knowledge to utilize perfectly. However, you should also take it to account that the survivor could also be good and is able to thwart your efforts to force them into such situations.
The Legion has until that survivor completes the mend action to use MM, by default 15 seconds. That's more than enough time to get close to another survivor, use MM, circle around the other direction, hit that survivor with FF, and chase that survivor back in the direction of where you used MM and get the down.
Having played plenty of Legion I can safely say that 'not really'. 10s of FF is already not enough to catch up to a survivor that has at least 10m head start, that can easily proven with basic math. Any survivor worth their salt knows that they need to start making distance/ get to a safe loop the moment they hear the TR after seeing someone get inflicted with DW.
So you spend 10s to catch up to your second target (who is most likely on the other side of the map anyway casue splitting up is the numero uno thing you do against Legion) then you get hit by a 4s stun (during which you obv can't set traps) leaving you with potentally only 1s to hastily set a trap. Even if you manage to do so it's not very likely to be in a strategical position.
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You know I would like to summon another Legions via lockers, I mean, open the locker, enter, and change the Legion you're using, if a survivor opens a Locker Legion is already in, s/he will scare them and close the locker so loud that you'll get a notification.
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Maybe I am missing something, but what does being Marked For Death do to a Survivor as far as base kit? I know there are add-ons that inflict penalties to anyone Marked for Death, but does it do anything besides just let the Legion summon a henchman? I ask because it seems like the Mob Mentality ability does not care about who is Marked for Death, only that someone is Marked for Death and that you summon a henchman within a minute of applying Marked for Death.
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I wouldn't want to have to go to the locker for it every time.
Also I was curious about this, and when you answer i'll update it on my thread too.
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No, you're not missing anything; what you're saying is correct. The base effect of MFD is it provides a charge for you to use your Mob Mentality power, as well as serves as a substitute for the Deep Wound effect, which essentially is a shield against Legion being able to down people with Feral Frenzy.
I can see that the MFD name is confusing though since as Legion you wouldn't have to go after that survivor and use your Mob Mentality power.
I'm open to better names or better ideas.
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I'm all for any change of Legion that removes the Deep Wounds nonsense.
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I think what they are asking is "Does MFD do anything to them without add-ons, other than letting Legion summon someone?"
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Thanks a lot for the long response! You bring up a lot of good points!
The MFD was a way for MM to make more sense conceptually and for the survivors to have more fun against Legion by not having to ever worry about mending; however, changing DW to MFD would definitely limit the Legion's options; you're right about that.
The thing I'd like the most is for the Legion to be able to keep his Feral Frenzy and in addition be able to use his teammates during the match as traps so it would be more fun to play as, and for survivors, get rid of having to spend so much time mending so Legion is more fun to versus.
However, that's implemented I'd be fine with. If someone can come up with a better way to do it, I'd be all for it! :)
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No, it doesn't do anything to the survivor without add-ons.
It would just let Legion summon someone.
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Ahh okay. I thought that's what it was, and that's why I put it that way in my thread. Not sure if it's a 100% good trade off, but I'll think about it. Might wanna make it lower base repair or something, so Legion has to think if it's good to remove or not.
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I fiddled around a little bit more with my Legion change, and I think this is the best version yet. It's the cleanest and easiest for people to understand, and it addresses some of the problems that people brought up. What do you guys think?
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I actually had thought of a similar- ish concept. My version is more of a passive ability and i don’t know how to addons or how rebalancing would work, but calling them legion had always bugged me. The long and short of it is the other members are hidden on the map and you can switch to them using the ability. You’d only ever control one at a time but in a way you could use the ability to more or less cover the entire map. I probably didn’t do a good job describing it before but I have made a forum on it. However I do like your idea alot.
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Wait... I see what you did. Sneaky. Good way to use DW too
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@MongByeolBuddies Imma update this on my thread!
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Awesome! Thanks to your and people's feedback, I realized doing it this way is better as it doesn't force Legion to have to rush to use his Mob Mentality power, meaning Legion can use it more strategically.
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Exactly! I hope no one minds me ever taking the idea or hoping you post it in my thread too. I kinda want a "One Stop Shop" for Legion ideas for the Devs! But i'm so happy we could help you!
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Ah, the important thing is to make Legion and DbD better; however, that's accomplished is not nearly as big a deal.
Also, I noticed I made one typo in my post. Could you fix it in your post please?
I left out -- "the penalty to" in the Filthy Blade description.
Filthy Blade -- Moderately increases the penalty to Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (10 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.
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I got ya man. And yes, I agree with the important thing
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Thanks buddy! 😀
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I approve of this idea. It would make the Legion into a fun, threatening killer that is an actual Legion.
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I've always wanted the "multiple killers" aspect to be incorporated into their power somehow, I think this would be a cool idea and would make Legion an interesting killer as opposed to how they are right now
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Awesome! I’m glad you like it. Also thanks for reviving this thread; I didn’t expect to see it again.
I think this would turn Legion from DBD’s most ridiculed killer into one of its most liked.
Also, it would get rid of the current Mending/No Terror Radius problem, which would be great as well.
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Yeah, I really hope BHVR sees this thread and uses it as a basis for a Legion rework. Though I admit I don't have the largest hope for it.
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How we can continue to discuss any new ideas if they in 3.4.0 with slightly buffs also nerf Legion? We can just stop, they wants Legion to be in grave, forever.
P.S: FF nerfed. Now attack during FF not count as basic attack. Minus couple of synergy perks.
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I don't have the highest hopes either, but the DEVs did rework Freddy, and they did a great job so who knows. Maybe it'll happen with Legion too.
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I'm glad you're giving Legion a reason to have that title.
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I am too
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This is so cool! You have put a lot of thought into the to make it fun for both suvs and killers, I hope something like this gets implemented/created. If the Devs don't want to rework legion like this I really hope another killer is created using a similar/modified mechanic because this is awesome! Props to you sir seriously well done!
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Thanks man! Yeah, I play both sides so I especially want Killers to be both fun to play and versus.
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HELLO! The Fanatical Legion main here, really happy that you are keeping this live!
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Holy Crap! You're alive! 😁 Good to have you back.
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Good to be back! Hope we can get some love for Legion going!
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Well, if there's anyone who can do it, it's you. With the upcoming changes, Legion needs help more than ever.
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Yeah! I get why they did it, but it still sucks. The Pallet vault is SEXY but it's not enough to counter act taking away so many perks that were what Legion was able to take advantage of! I need to play them more when they get released (cause last PTB was so bad) But i'm not confident it will get better with use.
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