The new tome level isn’t that bad.
Excluding endgame collapse challenges, most challenges are fine, you’ll just have to grind a bit. The unhook 25 survivors one kinda sucks too since it encourages bt hook farming and the Trapper one might be difficult but most are still fine.
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You are completely right: These challenges encourage hook farming and other stuff to throw the game. Happened already to me today.
I really have to think about playing anything else than 4-men-SWF. I'm not in a happy mood after the matches I had this evening.
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Might be difficult? Maybe in r20-r15 but good luck having 5 traps cath survivors that are optimal.
Besides that some force you to play swf because trying to do it solo is a giant middlefinger from bhvr to you.
Also dont take this as an insult or an attack, just a mere observation, but i get the feeling you are trying to make these "challenges" not look bad because you want to keep that trusted title, againt not an insult or an attack just an observation and a good one since i always see people trying to defend stuff that is lazily made only to get goodboy points from dev.
(And i have a feeling il get banned for posting this but cant care enough if i get spat by the community everyday for 3 years straight)
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Thing is I personally haven't got time to grind. I have other, more important things to do and the truth is the reward for completing the challenges are minor.
Oh well, lesson learned...no more Premium crap for me.
Post edited by Dr_Loomis on14 -
Everything like this will have outliers, people will get done with this challenge soon though.
I’ve played Trapper in red ranks and trapped five survivors plenty of times, I already said which challenges I dislike and why I dislike them, I gave some constructive feedback, I’m just not going to insult anyone over the challenges.
Wouldn’t of insulted anyone over it before I became trusted.
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Keys are everywhere since the introduction of tome 3.
What a ######### joy
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I’m just gonna use broken keys.
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Because I know you're a sweet boy.
But Im using Franklin's demise and it is not working -_-
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That sucks :(
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It's not really that good either though
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Every survivor starting for 25 safe unhooks IS pretty bad. I haven't gotten into game yet but I can only imagine how nightmarish this is going to be.
The 15 from last time took WAY longer than I initially expected it to take. This time its 25 and EVERY SURVIVOR I SEE will have this challenge on....
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"Everything like this will have outliers, people will get done with this challenge soon though."
So you are telling me to not play the game for a couple of days because the devs came up with a challenge that encourages ruining the match for other people?
Wouldn't it be better to clearly tell the devs how bad these challenges are?
The saddest thing is that it was clearly foreseeable that something like this would happen with this kind of challenge.
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I just don't get it. We finally get challenges in DBD and people are complaining because they can't finish the challenges on their first try everytime.
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If you don't have time to grind no one is forcing you to pay for something that requires playing the game a lot. If you don't have time then don't play the game. It's not a grind though, they are challenges. They are completely optional. What did you think the challenges would be???
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People are complaining because a lot of these challenges have nothing to do with skill. Some are just a lot of farming, others depend on how (bad) the opponent plays. Some even require you to play bad on purpose.
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It really does :(
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No, I’m telling you that stuff like this will always find a way of happening.
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😘
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Survivors run into traps all the time, on the PTB I got the challenge done first game. Just be unpredictable with traps and survivors will fall for them.
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To be fair, I can't think of a single challenge they could have implemented which people wouldn't have rushed and ruined the game for other players by focusing on the challenge instead of playing the game normally.
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With the current state of the game, yolo-saving will always be an issue. But that challenge encourages people to go for yolo-saves, therefore it's unhealthy for the game.
I don't see a reason why we shouldn't say it how it is. If we pretend that it's not so bad, we will get more challenges like that.
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Exactly! It doesn't matter what challenges they picked survivors would be going out of their way for it. If the challenges are doing totems then people are going to go out of the way for totems, if it's unhooking people are going to bum rush hooks, hell if it's doing gens people will start complaining because the survivors are doing gens instead of going for hook saves. That's the nature of everyone having the same challenges at the same time. People will do those challenges and then will be back to normal
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For example:
Escape/Get x amount of kills with no perks/a certain perk/without using a certain perk.
Escape/kill everyone within a certain amount of time.
Last x amount of time in a chase without getting downed.
Vault x amount of windows during a chase.
That comes to my mind immediately, so it shouldn't be a problem for somebody who is doing this for a living to come up with something better.
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All of the challenges would have to be the same in order to not be abused.
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Anything that involves escaping under certain conditions is going to have people who fulfill those conditions and then go hide in a corner for the rest of the game to make sure they're the last one left alive.
Escaping/4king within a certain amount of time won't encourage abnormal gameplay, I grant you, but it will encourage optimal strategies such as tunnelling or genrushing, or the use of powerful items such as keys and ebony moris, all of which have a reputation for making the game frustrating and unfun for the opposing side. It's also very much dependent on the other players and/or luck, which I believe is one of the chief complaints people have about the current challenges.
Lasting a certain amount of time during a chase, again, is very much opposition and/or luck-dependent. It also encourages the use of "infinite" loops (again, perfectly acceptable but not fun to go up against) and even exploits, since you can bet people will be doing whatever they can to win the chase, just like they're doing with challenges right now.
Vaulting windows during a chase will have people throwing chases just to get as many vaults in as they can before they go down, similarly to the problem that the pallet throwing challenge in level II suffered from.
I'm not trying to throw cold water, just trying to prove the point that whatever challenges they come up with, people will pursue them without care for anything else, and will go out of their way to throw matches or to make their opponents' and even teammates' lives miserable for the sake of completing the challenge. Some of this stuff is fine if it only happens occasionally, but when it's every other match it gets demoralising for the other players very quickly, and we're back to square one.
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My Survivor games were alright. I completed the two Killer games first (got 3 times Suffocation Pit on the "Hook 15 people in the Basement" Challenge, when I used McMillian Offering for small Maps..) so I now have to do the Iridescent Challenge. I dont care for the Unhook-Challenge at the moment (in fact, I dont need to care for any of these, I am at Tier 70).
My Killer games were better, got a 4K in 2 minutes because they rushed the Hook, instead of letting me go away.
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The grindy challenges should maybe be made more grindy but accumulate through the course of playing the game normal. Keep the master challenges as is. But rescue 25 people off hooks, and repair 25 gens shouldn't be one or the other.
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@Fibijean I don't see a problem with "encouraging optimal strategies", it's the normal thing happening at the higher ranks anyway. Not a lot of people will attempt to get their challenges done with meme builds anyway.
Lasting a certain amount of time in a chase heavily relies on your own skill and is the opposite of luck-dependent. Survivors are running "infinite loops" already, it's the devs' jobs to fix these.
Vaulting windows does not encourage people to throw chases. It's literally the opposite of "just drop as many pallets as possible" which is making the game worse for all survivors.
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Optimal strategies are not a problem in themselves, but by their nature they do tend to be unenjoyable for the opposing side, and so coming up against them over and over can be quite demoralising and drain the fun out of the game. There are good reasons why many people like to avoid red ranks.
The reason I said that the chase idea was luck-dependent is because, while it does depend on your own skill to an extent, it also depends on map selection, tile generation, the killer's skill and which killer is being played, since some are much easier to loop (and to stay consistently in a chase with) than others.
We might have to agree to disagree on the window vaulting one. I can absolutely see people just staying at the same window, vaulting back and forth as much as they can while the killer closes in, because who cares if they get caught as long as they get their challenge? (Their teammates, that's who.)
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Optimal strategies are the reality. If they are unfun, this has to do with imbalance/too strong items/too strong perks/too strong game mechanis. If we are at a point where players say "playing the game optimally is unfun" and "let's not encourage players to play optimally", it's time to really worry about the game.
Challenges should be about the player's skill. Chases are basically the only skill-dependent activity in DbD. Repairing gens & unhooking survs is not skill-related. If you say that chases are luck-dependent, then everything else in this game is just even more luck-dependent. 🤷
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No but really the devs need to go back to the drawing board on some challenges. If you play at red ranks you are going to have to throw the game for some of these.
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Imbalances aren't necessarily something that can be fixed before the next Rift, though. Challenges have to be designed around the game as it is now.
I'm definitely not saying that optimal play ought to be discouraged - it's possible that you're thinking I subscribe to a certain popular pattern of thinking which I'm actually very much opposed to. What I am saying is that, given that one of the primary complaints about the current challenges is that they're not fun or ruin the game for other players, strategies such as tunneling ought not to be rewarded any more than they already are simply by way of being optimal, because they do unfortunately hurt the other players' experience somewhat.
And yes, that's correct. One could argue that everything in the game is luck-dependent in some way. And that's exactly my point - there is no challenge which can be devised that people won't find frustrating or unfun or unfair, or complain that it is ruining their experience in some way.
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As a solo survivor some of these challenges are going to require a lot of luck to achieve...
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Devs are too greedy.
Which would be fine if they actually used the money they gain to fix the game.
At least basic stuff like framerate,lobbies,dedicated servers...
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They could have named the new Rift "Rise of the Insidious Bubba and his toxic friends". Already had 4 games in a row like this. Literally unplayable. Pretty good job so far.
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The actual "grind" ones don't bother me... it's the pure luck-based "complete in a single trial" ones that are absolutely unfathomable.
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If the EGC Hook Rescue challenge was something else, this tome would be super fair, imo.
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I'm just gonna farm for the trapper one I did it for level 1 and 2 lol
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Completable for the "average player" who only plays 1-2 hours a day. Just wanna quote that.
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Guess they didn't think about the fact that 1-2 hours equates to 3 or 4 matches with the current queue times lol
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Thank you for actually being a voice of reason. It doesn't matter what challenges there are people are going to go out of their way for challenges. The only way to avoid it is just have no challenges and I don't want that
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I encountered perhaps one of the angriest survivors I have ever seen today.
I camped his whole team in the basement with Bubba and boy howdy was he upset.
So yeah, challenges don't seem that bad to me lol.
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Wow. Epic gamer moment bro
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Honestly I gotta disagree. I simply can't see how "Unhook 2 survivors during EGC and they must be safe hooks in one trial" is not bad. That's an atrocious challenge, and it's not even skill based, it's pure luck.
This is just one challenge of an entire level of poorly thought out challenges. Some more examples of bad ones.
1: Sacrifice 2 survivors during EGC with noed.
2: Hook a survivor in the basement while someone is already in the basement wirth Monstrous Shrine.
3: Escape a trial without being hooked using Spine Chill.
The whole of levels 3 and 4 are just clearly not tested. There's no way a dev tester tried these challenges and said "yea an average player can do this easily." These challenges are pure luck based, and someone on the reddit said it best, they said that if the master challenges were simply not trial restricted, then it wouldn't be as bad as it could still be done realistically, just really time consuming. This is what needs too be done too make the challenges not luck based.
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This is Tome 1 so they could be saving those for a different one? Like the vaulting challenge could be a Kate or Feng one. A trophy you earn is from Kate's chapter so maybe.
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I talked about the ones I didn’t like in the thread, you can’t make conclusions based on only the title.
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I read the original post, but that doesn't change my point on the fact challenges shouldn't be stuck on single trials.
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one thing is having challenges that change the monotony of a player normal play style, another thing is to ask for very specific conditions to be met in order to complete them, especially when they rely so much on things beyond your control (like never being found, have team mates still alive in EGC [but potato enough to getting hooked anyway...?], don't have survivors run to the opposite side of the map because they don't want to give you the basement..)
Take the Spine Chill challenge - you have to escape without getting hooked. It's not at all an impossible challenge, in fact it can even be easy for certain players, but it goes in the opposite direction of what a good challenge should be, since you can fail the challenge as soon as... what, 20 seconds into the game?
You could change with something like Using Spine Chill, don't get chased for more than 2 minutes and survive. Now even if you get hooked you have a chance to complete the challenge and you can't really know if you were chased for more than 2 minutes - and since you also need to survive, you won't simply throw a chase to avoid it getting too long.
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My original post: “Excluding endgame collapse challenges, most challenges are fine, you’ll just have to grind a bit. The unhook 25 survivors one kinda sucks too since it encourages bt hook farming and the Trapper one might be difficult but most are still fine.”
Your initial comment:”Honestly I gotta disagree. I simply can't see how "Unhook 2 survivors during EGC and they must be safe hooks in one trial" is not bad. That's an atrocious challenge, and it's not even skill based, it's pure luck.
This is just one challenge of an entire level of poorly thought out challenges. Some more examples of bad ones.
1: Sacrifice 2 survivors during EGC with noed.
2: Hook a survivor in the basement while someone is already in the basement wirth Monstrous Shrine.
3: Escape a trial without being hooked using Spine Chill.
The whole of levels 3 and 4 are just clearly not tested. There's no way a dev tester tried these challenges and said "yea an average player can do this easily." These challenges are pure luck based, and someone on the reddit said it best, they said that if the master challenges were simply not trial restricted, then it wouldn't be as bad as it could still be done realistically, just really time consuming. This is what needs too be done too make the challenges not luck based.”
Why bring up the egc ones claiming that I said they were fine even though my original post says that they aren’t?
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Y'know, regardless of how good or bad the last Tome will be, it'll be a good learning experience for the team.
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I see your point, but at the same time there are a significant proportion of people who feel the opposite way - they prefer challenges with very specific activation conditions because it gives them something to strive for. No matter what kind of challenges they put in the Tome, a bunch of people are going to be unhappy about it.
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