The problem with the archives is the comunity
The problem i see with the archives is the comunity.
When the devs make the challanges short there to short, when they make them take longer there to long, you can't have gens cause that incurages gen rushing, you can't have unhooks cause that incurages bt hook farming, you can't have pallet while being chased because that incurages throwing the game by throwing all pallets instantly when chased, you can't just be chased cause then nobody would do the objectiv and would just try to get the killers atention, you can't have blinding because that incurages toxicness, but it also can't be something to specivic to not get done in a match.
But what else could you do? The real problems with the archives is a comunity that can't let these challanges happen naturally instead having to force them threw as fast as possible.
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I'm going to have to agree.
The main complaint seems to be that the challenges promote unhealthy gameplay because they encourage people to focus on the challenge objective rather than just playing the game as they normally would, but the thing is there is no challenge the developers could possibly devise where that wouldn't be the case.
If you give people another objective, particularly a time-limited one, they are naturally going to go out of their way to pursue it ingame. If that weren't the case, there would be no point in having challenges. It doesn't matter what that objective is.
The other major complaint is that the challenges are too difficult. In my opinion, such a complaint would hold more water if those making it had spent more than two days trying to complete challenges which are designed to take three weeks for the average player, before making any conclusive judgements about them.
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not at all trying to suggest that players shouldn't be allowed to complain or criticise. I just think, firstly, that player attitudes are a much bigger part of the problem than the challenges themselves, and secondly that the community at large jumped the gun a bit without personally giving the challenges an honest shot first.
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You are right, the problem is the community. Anything relating to objectives being done much faster (Dark Sense Challenge), or camping a certain objective (You, Yes, You! Challenge) is going to raise some eyebrows or spark some rage. Because it can turn a normal average game into a sweat-filled hell. And I don't think I need to say anything else other than the fact that being sweaty is not fun for most people.
I like these challenges. I prefer them for being a test of skill. I don't dislike them because of their difficulty (hell, some of them are piss easy). I do dislike them for having some challenges that are very luck based (EGC Challenges, Hook 4 Survivors in the Basement.)
It's made all the more impossible as I personally am stuck in Red Ranks, and you know how Survivors and Killers can be in those ranks. They will either spend no time gunning for the escape or show no mercy during the Endgame.
If the challenges were more personal and doesn't require the teamwork (or luck, if you're in solo) of others. I'm sure the community won't be as mad as it is.
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Why shouldn't we encourage gen rushing?
Are the devs scared to show the true balance in this game?
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"The real problems with the archives is a comunity that can't let these challanges happen naturally instead having to force them threw as fast as possible."
The challenges don't happen naturally because of the way that it's implemented. Because you need to pick a specific challenge to do, people will do that challenge.
There's two ways to fix that:
1) Give the option to select multiple challenges, like 3 or so
2) Make challenges that are all active at the same time, like:
- Repair 30 gens
- Heal 30 healthstates
- Get 20 safe unhooks
etc. And make these challenges harder the further we go in the Rift
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I have no problem with challenges that are meant to be spread over a couple matches like complete 25 gens.
I have no problem with challenges that requires you to use a specific perk like opening a certain amount of chests with plunderers instinct
I have no problem with challenges that require you to do a decent amount of things in one game for example heal people up four health states
However I have problems with challenges that require you to hope that a certain situation happens for you to even be able to attempt it.
Save two people during endgame collapse is ridiculous:
you would have to have at least three people survive until the gates are open including yourself you could do this with just one other person but it's harder.
Then you would have to hope those people go down.
Then you would have to hope that the killer doesn't defend their kills and allows you to get the save that's a safe rescue.
If it's not a safe rescue you're out of luck if someone beat you to it you're out of luck.
Any challenges that require you to hope something specific happens in the game is bad design.
Hell even with the four basement sacrifices you would have to hope that the survivors don't catch on to what you're doing and run away to the other side of the map or that they don't disconnect
Any challenges like the two I mentioned above or more that follow the same theme are just terrible
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I feel like challenges that wouldn't have any big chance to effect gameplay are possible.
Keep them simplistic and don't require any specifics like egc.
Do gens/drop pallets/heal/sacrifice/hit/use a specific perk etc are all good challenges.
Stuff you'd be doing normally anyway.
Unhooks are only a problem due to farming people hate getting farmed.
Challenges like get sacrifices during egc with noed could just be run noed and get sacrifices at any time.
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Of course you can do challenges that don't hurt the game's health (significantly). Was there a massive outcry about the challenges of level 1 and level 2? No.
@Fibijean I get that you want to defend the devs but putting the blame on the players instead of the bad challenges is not the way go. Luckily the devs realized that these challenges aren't good for the game in their current state.
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This situation took me 5 hours to achieve in only one opportunity, not to mention all the early dcs I did to avoid killers from camping me in the basement. The difficulty wasn't as hard as much as the opportunity for it to even happen. This along with normal booboo has left me with little tolerance of any kind leading me to dc often. Once the one trial missions are done I can finally play normally without having to worry about being murdered and camped early
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Not at all - if I were interested in defending the devs just for the sake of it, I would be defending their decision to make adjustments to the challenges.
As hard as some might find it to believe, all I'm doing is expressing my own honest opinions about the archives and how the community has responded to them. If anything, the devs and I seem to disagree on this particular point.
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Thing is, as the OP pointed out, even simplistic challenges will see people shift their style of gameplay to focus on completing the challenge, whether it's gen repairs, pallet drops, heals, vaults, item uses, hits, or sacrifices.
I'm not saying it's impossible to have challenges that don't encourage toxic behaviour, but what I am saying is that almost by definition, challenges encourage players to change how they play in order to pursue a singular objective, regardless of what that objective is.
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Just to clariffy I am not talking about the master challenges. I do think that the last minute hero challenge should have been a side node if it has to exist at all. My point is about the grind challenges and how the comunity handels them. The problem with the grind challenges is that there is no way to make them not encurage unfun behaviar if trying to do them in as little matches as possible.
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I'd agree with you if they completed passively.
Say, 3 unhooks, 2 gens and an endgame unhook all added onto their respective challenges at the end of a match.
The fact that I HAVE to do 25 unhooks AND 2 EGC unhooks before accessing the rest of the survivor challenges, (many of which seem more fun to me) or completely equally forced and grindy killer challenges, means that yes, I'm going to get through those damn unhooks as fast as possible.
I think they should do away with the webs, or at least take out certain larger goal objectives and let them passively accumulate at the same time over many matches.
Yeah, we get it, the devs want to force us into playing a TONNE of matches so they can inflate their numbers, but it's honestly already at the point of being harmful to the game and we're only on tome 1 where they SHOULDN'T be completely out of ideas.
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Almost all problems in the game is due to community lol
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You have 2 weeks till the next level and after that you have 4 till the rift closes. I think that is enought time to finish them all and even if not, you could just grind the last rift shards your missing by not doing some of them.
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Did they release the numbers of that survey?
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You have an unlimited amount of time to work on these challenges. The only real time limit you have is the rift, and we still have over a month of it. You don't need to hard-focus on the challenges to get them done, and most of them aren't even that hard. They just take some time.
@Sairek "I think you're woefully underestimating how long it takes to grind the rift."
I dunno, if you do the challenges and play semi-regularly you can do it without really trying. I'm at Tier 50 and I still have most of the challenges in Tome 3 to do, and Tome 4 is still coming.
Sure its time consuming but if you are playing the game you are going to get through most of it. I agree that most people don't have the tenacity to play so much as to complete the Rifts through playing, but we still have over a month.
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But the current problems seem to originate from every one doing the challenges and, by proxy, the rift. So it seems to me that there is an interest from the comunity. If there where only like 25% of players interested there woun´t be this massiv problem. And if they just wanted to make money they could just have sold those skins seperatly. I argue that they could have made more money this way, without giving auracells back and nobody would have complained.
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If they weren't planning on making money on the Rift, they'd not have allowed players to buy tiers. This one single feature show Behavior's intention behind the Rift. Combine that with the immense grind required to actually get enough fragments to complete the Rift itself, and their actions are speaking for themselves.
They hope that people give into buying tiers to complete the Rift.
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I am aware that the rift wasn't a benevolent gift. But i don't beleave it was, like you sugested, implemented against the wish of the comunity just to make as much money as possible.
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The problem isn't the community at all. All these challanges can be done. Some harder then other, but all are doable. The problem is that you have to do them one by one, as others said above. The same problem was and still is in Battlefield 5. The devs (Dice) don't listen and this results in a lot of frustration of their community. The same is here. Making tree based challenges is always unhealthy. Just adding challenges that get done while you play normally is much better. This gives the player the option to either play normally or concentrate on a challenge. The 4 gens by yourself of Rift 4 for example: I've already done that in a normal game. Will I be able to do it when I select the challenge? Maybe. I guess it will be rather frustrating, cause it will take foreveeeeeeeerrrrrrrr to finish it.
@Peanits why didn't you guys do that way? Why an unhealthy tree based challenge?
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Its ironic how ppl will do things like farm hook saves so they can rush through a tome, only to then complain that they dont have anymore challenges to do once they finish them all in 2 days.
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A solution for the problem that people focus too much on that single challenge they chose is this:
Do not implement the challenges in a web-like structure, but make then accessible and active all at once. Change the requirements to finish a level to a percentage of challenges you need completed.
This way you could play normally, but do "escape the trial with Hope" the same time you "healed 4 Survivors in one match". The grindy Challenges wouldn't be that problem either, because you repair gens, save and heal every game. This way you could even increase the amount you need for that (with more reward of course), because you can do all at the same time.
I think this would be more healthy for the game.
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@bendermac You just need to finish the Gen. No need to do it all from 0 to 100. I know that for a fact, because I only fully repaired one Gen and finished 2 other.
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Its not just the community. There are always people who would complain under any situation, you dont have to care for them. Also there are alsways people having different views, cause of different playstyles like those who play much say its too easy ot those who play not much say its too hard. For those you have to find an agreement. BUT, the battlepass itself has such a bad design that you are forced to play different for certain "challenges" to progress instead of being able to do them if you want to or if its just happened. This Battlepass-system here is fundamentally wrong designed, just compare them to any other battlepass-like systems in other games. But I dont think that BHVR will change anything of its design for the next Rift, cause they dont seem to care much for feedback.
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That was tome 2. I was talking about tome 4 and we don't know yet if you just need to be on the gen when it pops or do it fully alone.
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@bendermac that is the same challenge (same words they used) like in level 2 but with 4 gens instead of 3.
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Grind challenges aren't bad but I think the whole idea of them should be casual friendly as the rift and archives are meant to be.
The devs stated the rift should be able to be done with around 1h of playtime a day.
Knowing this means challenges then need to be part of that so in theory then they should take no more than 1 hour of playtime. It's a problem with the over all system and how it was planned to be available for all.
If a challenge takes 15 games for example that means and average 150m so 2.5 hours which goes against that. It's an issue they have atm due to what they originally stated was the goal for completion.
Personally I like the grind ones more but being able to do too many in a match is the issue not just the act itself. When you need 10 saves and can use bt and farm hooks you could do it in 2 games but it ruins the match for everyone else.
My proposal was to limit it to say 2 hooks per match which could also be the same for gen ones and applied to all grind challenges. This should be easily possibly in 5 games then which is 50m if playtime (playtime not queue time which is another discussion)
The ones I don't really like are luck based ones like kill or unhook in the egc, using certain perks or basement kills as these not only add more grind but are also more luck dependant which means the 1h scenario doesn't work as it could take 1 or 15 matches to get it done.
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So you say you would be at level 31, meaning you´d be mising 39 Tiers and of today you have 39 days left. seems to checkout to me.
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I did some math:
The first Tome Level gives you 93 Riftshards, the second 84, the third 90 and the forth 85 (Asumed they wont change the layout before releasing it) that makes 352 Riftshards. It takes 690 Shards to complete the Rift, meaning 338 Shards have to be grinded with xp. It takes 800 xp to get a shard making it a total of 270400 xp. you can get a daily bonus of 600 if you both play a round of killer and survivor giving you 42000 xp over 70 days leaving 228400 xp. let´s say you make around 550 xp per game it would take 415,27 games to get to the end. Meaning you need to play 5.9 games a day to get the rift to it´s end, if you miss a daily xp bonus you would need one or two games more.
I would say it´s probably a more than one hour a day. But in my opinion 6 Games a day don´t seem unreasonable especially if you consider you can earn more than 550 xp per round with good emblems.
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