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Four Perk Slots and the complementary perk problem
I think it's no secret that the meta for Dead by Daylight has been... rather unchanging. With the same handful of perks for both Killer (BBQ, Ruin, NOED, Nurse's Calling, Enduring, with Spirit Fury and Sloppy Butcher being newer additions to this meta) and Survivor (Self Care and variants, Exhaustion perks, Borrowed Time, Adrenaline, Decisive Strike) being mainstays in the meta since they were added. While I could complain about all these perks and how "Adrenaline hasn't been changed in 2 years and it's received nothing but buffs nyehh!" I want to bring up another point.
With Yui coming out I'm personally really excited to run what I humbly call the "mom" build, consisting of Windows of Opportunity and By Any Means Necessary. The idea of this build is simple: know where the dropped pallets are to pick up after your kids.
With that being said Window's range is... kinda godawful. I could ask for a buff to Windows but since I'm not going to wait forever for that to happen I figure I may as well run Open Handed to increase the range of Windows for my funny build. But then I thought "if I'm running Open Handed I may as well run Bond too, right?"
And then I realized: "If I run Windows of Opportunity, Bond, Open Handed, and By Any Means Necessary that's 4 perks, and I don't have any of the crutch meta perks that are essentially mandatory to play Survivor." No Lithe (which is kinda the main reason to run Windows?) or similar Exhaustion perk, no Spine Chill to keep stealthy with a stealth build, no self-healing perk of any kind (granted "Self Care wastes time" meta is stronk nowadays, but I also wouldn't have any perks to help with being injured like Iron Will), no Decisive Strike to stop tunneling (heavy quotation marks), no Borrowed Time to stop camping, no Adrenawin...
This is an issue that almost every new perk faces, which is why so many new perks fall by the wayside into C tier or lower when compared to other options. There are a lot of really cool options out there that never see use because the meta is just way too strong. Stake Out, Leader, Lightweight, Breakdown, Quick and Quiet, Wake Up, Spies from the Shadows, Stridor, I'm All Ears, Fire Up, Iron Maiden, and a lot of Hex perks - all of these perks fall by the wayside because "Oh I'm making a Survivor build better equip Balanced Landing, Iron Will, Spine Chill, annnnd that's 3 perks" or "Oh I'm making a Killer build better equip BBQ & Chili, Ruin, Whispers, annnd that's 3 perks." Even just going back to Survivor you've got Lithe, Quick and Quiet, Dance with Me, and Windows of Opportunity all based on finding windows to vault to gain a benefit. But the problem is that this build is 4 perks dedicated entirely to one purpose, and you (again) lack any stealth perks, Exhaustion perks, anti-injured perks...
Instead of launching into the usual rant of "the meta is too boring! this perk needs a nerf! this perk should be baseline! devs don't want to make good perks! arble garble garble" I need to ask... do we need more perk slots? I don't think we should just have 5 or 6 perk slots no. The last thing I want is to go up against some chucklefuck Freddy running Jump Rope, Swing Chains, Ruin, Thanataphobia, Dying Light, Huntress' Lullaby, Pop Goes the Weasel, and BBQ.
But should we have dedicated perk slots for specific types of perks? Just as an example for Survivor: a slot for Exhaustion perks and a slot for anti-injured perks? Now what constitutes an "anti-injured perk" is loose to say the least but I think Exhaustion perks are easily quantifiable.
Inversely for Killer: how would a perk slot for game stall perks and a perk slot for tracking perks go? It would certainly alleviate some builds if you could stick BBQ and Ruin on without being starved for other perks. Or if you're so inclined: Thrilling Tremors and Corrupt Intervention? Whispers and Pop Goes the Weasel? Bloodhound and Huntress' Lulla-on second thought don't run those perks.
I realize this is a big proposition but it's really disheartening that every time a new perk is released there's a week or two of excited theorizing and build testing before everyone realizes "Oh I need crutch bullshit to survive / kill" and immediately goes back to slave to the meta. I don't think people who meme in SWF / at Rank 10 are your main market Behaviour, and while they may enjoy the addition of 6 more meme perks to add to the pile the vast majority of the playerbase is falling asleep as they get into another match with a Killer running Ruin, BBQ, Whispers, and Pop Goes against 4 Survivors running Iron Will, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, and Adrenaline.
Comments
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Yes its a shame that so much time has been spent on creating perks that will get used for the achievement and then abandoned forever.
If you can accept the inevitable drop in effectiveness, it is enjoyable to just ditch your crutch perks and play around with fun and interesting builds. But then you get matched against a hardcore meta-perk SWF team or Tunnelling/Camping/Ebony Mori Killer that gives you a "ggez" at the end just makes you want to abandon the fun and back to the same boring perks again.
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I agree, sometimes I get sick of using the same 4 perks every match and when I try something different all the other perks are just awful to downright useless, especially if you're not in a SWF. So I don't even bother with them.
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Adrenaline used to heal 2 health states, so it was nerfed.
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Oh and it apparently didn't cause exhaustion initially. So it's been nerfed twice. Not sure what the buff is
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As great a suggestion as that is, and whilst it would certainly aid in the diversity of perks initially, there will always be a meta. People will soon figure out the 6 meta perks to have, with the 2 that need constraints. For example, deadhard is "almost" in every meta build, so itd be the exhaustion perk, and adrenaline could be counted as an anti-injured perk, so those 2 perks that are already everywhere, would still be everywhere.
Theres also the issue, that it'll super charge both sides. Having more perks would turn the already powerful killers more powerful, and the already godlike survivors more godlike. It would be a balancing nightmare
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Perks should enhance something you already have, not giving abilities.
Image Survivor has all those abilities by default (Dead hard, DS, even able to re-build pallets..ect) of course Killer will have good abilities to match up with those. And Perks are just give you to do something better (like this Perk gives you Dead hard 2m further; this Perk gives your DS stuns Killer 2sec longer..ect).
This is also what we can see in Killer side: BBQ, LightBorn, Nurse call...give Killer new abilities. Perks like Brutal strenght / ShadowBorn are just enhance what Killer already have, which rarely used
Currently, I really do want to try something new, but as soon as I remove DS, I get hard tunneled and "how could I so stupid to put DS out of my loadout?"
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The problem in my eyes is that for every one extra perk slot the Killer gets, the Survivor team gets four extra slots total (even if those extra slots are conditional in what they are allowed to be). Even though the ratio would still be the same, I don't think both sides get equal benefit from such a thing.
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Changing out survivor perks is easier than changing killer perks. For me the only 'crutch' perk is spine chill. Closely followed by empathy. But i only have empathy on Claudette so i dont use it alot. I frequently change all my perks. For every game i wish i would have had DS. Theres 3 or 4 where having DS wouldnt have mattered. BT i don't use and never miss.
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Adrenaline has received nothing but buffs since its release. It used to be unable to pick you up from being slugged unless it was level 3, and used to only last 3 seconds at level 1. The only "nerf" it got was causing Exhaustion which was only added after they added Exhaustion mechanics to Sprint Burst.
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With five perk slots killers would just throw ruin on every build and survivors unbreakable or deliverance.
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You're reading it wrong. Also, changing level 1 to level 3 values isn't a buff. Nobody keeps a perk at level 1 for long
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Your build is only complementary to the way the killer plays, if it’s not doing it’s job, you’ve basically brought a meme build as in you aren’t doing anything but following someone around aka not working on any main objectives. Which many killers break pallets right after they get thrown.
With that being said, just like every other pvp scenario in a game there are always some builds that are stronger than others. So why wouldn’t people play the stronger builds?
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The idea's come up before and I still find it problematic.
Firstly, who does it impact the least/most? Killers who are incredibly strong regardless of perks like Nurse, Spirit, Billy and Freddy will remain at the peak of killers because most only really need one or two perks that synergise with them, like BBQ or Stridor. M1 killers on the other hand lose combinations like Enduring/Spirit Fury which would both be in the same category when combinations like these are what give them SOME semblance of competition with more mobile killers, or those that have alternative methods of dealing with pallets.
Second, does it really fix anything? BBQ is a detection perk. Ruin is stalling. Enduring or SF are chasing. NOED is none of the above. Nurse's Calling would conflict with BBQ but it's dropped off severely in use in the last year or so, or is used with injury/stall builds moreso than generic "4 meta" builds. On the survivor side, it would be a massive nerf overall because DS/BT/Adren/probably Unbreakable would all be classed as "extra hit" perks.
Third, what would be the outcome? Survivor players would see this as a massive hit and something like this would probably be enough to make a lot of people quit, if nearly all of their "builds" aren't just nerfed, but are unusable. It doesn't do anything to solve perks being really low value, it just forces you to bring some perks you don't like because it's that or nothing. Hell, you can't even use the combinations of perks you discuss as being interested in in your post, because they're all information tools that would conflict.
Overall, it's a nice concept, but it doesn't really make anything in the game better or healthier, and we're far too far down the rabbit hole to restrict perk choices like that without consequences.
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There are actually no perks that are figuratively mandatory to play survivor.
All the meta is is what the community at large considers the "best" perks. Sometimes the meta changes due to the introduction of new perks, sometimes it's because of changes in the game, and sometimes it's just because a streamer with a huge sphere of influence managed to convince their audience that a particular perk is better than people are giving it credit for. That's how fragile the meta actually is.
Try just forgetting about meta perks for a while, and experiment with different builds like the one you're proposing for Yui. Some of them won't work too well, that's natural, but you may surprise yourself with how effective others can be.
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Would love more perks slots. Or i want some perks combined together. Such as Hope is pretty awful by itself. Combined with another perk. We need to make some perks stronger.
While were at it, can we rework the addon system into a 10 point system where we have loadouts, addons are not consumed instead strongest addons take up 10 pts, and weaker addons scale down so we can mix and match. Making it also easier to balance competitively since people will always have access to the same ones.
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That being said some perks (Ruin) are mandatory for Killer, and I honestly wish they'd make it baseline to some extent.
Another interesting idea could be to add a few "minor" perk slots for perks like Hope and (current) No One Left Behind. Thing is that even Hope is actually really strong. 5% movement speed doesn't sound like a lot but it makes you 10% slower than default Killers (instead of 15%) and also allows you to outrun Tier 1 Myers and 1 Blink Nurse. Niche use cases but the point still stands.
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So everyone has already said why this idea is bad but here is an alternative to your idea.
What if every character was allowed to use 1 perk from their own personal perks in addition to the 4?
For example: One of Dwight's personal perks is Bond so he can choose to use Bond and then use Open Handed, Kindred, Urban Evasion, and Spinechill. This build is for being stealthy and if you need heals you can find your buddy which you can find very easily and if you're on the hook everyone sees everyone. Bond isn't actually needed in this build but it's an example. Another example is that Hag starts with Ruin but then she can run an entire build free from the fear of not being able to use Ruin because she starts with it for free.
This idea wouldn't help every Killer as all of Demogorgon's perks suck(pretty embarrassing for a highly anticipated licensed character) but you get the idea and it could help a little bit in having a little more freedom for perk choices and make every Survivor unique instead of just being a skin.
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That would end up making "meta" survivors, which are suppose to only be skins. Would also make certain perk choices really obvious to the killer. While I already assume all Lauries have DS and all Davids have dead hard...this would pretty much guarantee those suspicions. Theres already a lack of people playing Jane, Jeff and Quentin, this would just put a nail in that coffin.
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It would just mean we'd no longer see most of the survivor cast. You'd have Lauries everywhere for DS or Bills for BT, or Meg for Adren, then it'd just be 5 perk builds with the same broken combinations.
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Im pretty sure this would also gut Feng's popularity since her only "popular" perk is lithe...which isnt very popular.
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I mean Alert is a good perk, but nobody's going to pick her for it when they can have 5 chase/second chance perks on Laurie and Bill.
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While I have seen killers 4k without Ruin (I do it all the time, but my killer is very low-ranked), or with a Ruin that was broken about 30 seconds in, I definitely agree that the killer meta is a lot more integral than the survivor meta, and that changes probably ought to be made to the game such that Ruin isn't such a necessary perk for many.
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I lvled up my Feng and started playing her, just for those shades and those sweet headphones.
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Adrenaline didn’t healed you after you got unhooked and I believe it even activated when you were carried by the killer. So that was a huge buff even tho it started as a bug and became a feature
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It only triggered when the killer was in the pick up animation, but then it would be wasted because the killer would hook you and thus reinjure you and you'd lose the speed boost, which was a bug and be exhausted. Not sure what you think was a bug turned into a feature.
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So... after you brought up Alert last night I decided to try it out... It is AWESOME, lol. Getting a notification everytime a killer kicks a gen is EPIC in that I started screwing with killers by tapping gens as I go to make an unhook or something. Even if the gen is at 0.0001% done, for some reason Ive seen alot of em still take the time to kick it later on, and I get a little chuckle.
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Patch 1.5.0
- Mechanics Change: Adrenaline now causes Exhaustion for 60/50/40 seconds.
- Quality of Life: ignores the Exhaustion condition.
- Quality of Life: Adrenaline is now on hold if you are disable at the moment it should take effect and will activate when freed.
(which proves that it wasn't a bug as you stated)
Patch 1.8.1
- Quality of Life & Buff: Adrenaline now heals one Health State no matter the state the Survivor is in and grants a sprint burst of 5 seconds across all Tiers.
- Quality of LifeQ: Adrenaline now wakes up sleeping Survivors.
Source: https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Adrenaline
So it got buffed multiple times & the only nerf should be the exhaustion one.
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While I understand where the OP is coming from I'd say no. I don't want arbitrary rules controlling my build. For instance, I don't use exhaustion perks. But your idea requires me to slot one.
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Why run mediocre perks when you can just run the 4 best?
Ds grants you 120 seconds of no hooking.
Bt grants you free bodyblocks. (can't even tunnel the person that blocked a hit with bt because they have ds lmfao)
Dead Hard is too versatile.
Adrenaline grants free wins if you have a coordinated team.
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And you see every time the killer is in a chase with someone else because they break a pallet. And every time you drop a pallet you see whether the killer doubles back or which way they're going to react appropriately.
Also Billy and Nurse are great cos they telegraph where they're headed right after they kick a gen.
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Well one could argue that bad perks could be reworked/buffed.
While i also support the 4+1 perk idea for both sides, it's obvious that the characters with the meta perks are favored by that system.
Although its funny that its been kinda implemented for nurse.
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Honestly I just wanted to say that this was really well written and I agree with you.
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The main issue with this concept is that everyone would play either Meg or Claudette or Nea or some character with a top tier perk. It's good in theory but the choice of Survivors is already beyond dull with everyone playing the same 5 or so Survivors. I have plenty of friends who main Survivors with bad perks like Steve and Ace, and I personally have Jane and Ash at P3 as well. No one would play these Survivors because their perks are hot garbage.
There's another discussion to be had about so many Survivors being released with C tier meme perks but that's not a discussion for here.
Even if the Ruin gets found very quickly it's still time that the Survivors spend looking for the totem, or hitting at least a few failed skill checks. The issue with Ruin is that even the worst case scenario still buys you about 20 seconds. It's why it's so much stronger than every other gen stall perk: it's 100% reliable to do at least something, and while perks like Corrupt Intervention and Pop Goes the Weasel may last longer they can be ignored or countered entirely while Ruin will always have at least some effect.
It causes no harm to you to bring it as an extra perk. My point is that some of the top tier meta perks that are always included in builds should always be an option because the vast majority of people use them. It's really annoying that every single build has 2 or 3 slots taken by perks which are essentially mandatory to function.
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But no perk is mandatory. I don't use any exhaustion perks. Or Ds, Adrenaline, or Borrowed Time. Those can arguably make your game easier. But they are hardly mandatory.
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