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Legion Rework Thread
Legion Rework
Alright, so, at this point in time, I am becoming the fanatical Legion main. Unfortunately, our previous leader needed to take a break. That being said, I am typing this in hopes of the Devs responding, as it is a respectful and, hopefully, will-written paper.
To begin, Legion is a very interesting Killer. I love the design of him and the lore. Even gameplay wise, I love him. Unfortunately, Legion’s power is fundamentally poorly designed. There was little way for the Devs to see this at the time, though, now our hindsight is 20/20. My goal is to provide good feedback and suggestions while keeping true to the basis of the Legion. Feel free to comment and suggest ideas and point out where I’m being an idiot.
First off, Deep Wounds has to go. It can only be either extremely underpowered or extremely overpowered. It will never be fun for BOTH sides.
- Feral Frenzy now applies the Frenzied Slashes (FS)
Frenzied Slashes is a new status affect. The numbers are purely experimental and are more of a proof of concept than a legitimate attempt to balance it. Please keep that in mind.
- FS applies Hemorrhage and louder grunts until fully healed
- FS applies a 2 second Exhaustion
Hemorrhage is for easier tracking, as are the louder grunts. Two seconds of Exhaustion is designed to regulate the Survivors perk use. This Legion specializes in the chase and stall. Therefore, his strongest point will be in the chase. It is only two seconds because to allow the Survivor to recover Exhaustion if the Legion makes a bad read and to quickly recover it when Legion leaves them alone.
- FS applies a 3% repair debuff and a significant healing speed debuff. The repair speed debuff will remain until the Survivor fully heals. This debuff is unique. If one Survivor has FS, they have a 3% debuff. Hit another? Those two have a 6% debuff. Get all four? They all have a 12% debuff.
The repair debuff is probably too low, however, I don’t want it to be oppressive. Everyone knows gens are very boring. As for the healing speed debuff, this applies only to your self-healing and will slightly slow down your healing of others, think one stack of old Thana. It is NOT the Mangled status effect. You will still be healed at the same rate, unless the other Survivor has also been hit by FS. It is not meant to be oppressive, it is only meant as an incentive to heal. Being injured isn't a huge issue in Dead By Daylight, even in 2021, hence why players need an incentive to heal.
- FS will not down Survivors normally, however, if the Survivor has been hit by FS three times, and has not healed, they will go down. This is not designed to be a common thing, nor will it be efficient at all, as hitting a Survivor twice will still cancel your power. It will have a 3 second stun, similar to a pallet stun. No vision clouding.
- It will have a 30 second recharge and will have a default length of 15 seconds, being extended everytime you hit a Survivor.
FS is meant as a purely stalling power, not to down Survivors normally, therefore, the stun will be reduced.
- FS will recede when the Survivor heals one health state.
This is to discourage slugging early in the game when you need the gen pressure, while still leaving it viable in the late game
- The speed of Legion’s power will remain the same as it is in the 3.4.0 patch.
- Missing an attack will no longer remove your power, it will cancel it, but it will keep the charge it had when you missed.
- Hitting a Survivor with a M1 will no longer drain the power at all.
- Because of stacking issues, FS will not be a basic attack.
The speed of Legion’s power feels MUCH better in the 3.4.0 patch, therefore, it will be kept the same. Missing an attack is very easy with Legion, therefore, it will still punish bad players, but will not be so harsh on players who genuinely missed. The power drain on Live is ridiculous, however, I kept a small drain to prevent potential abuse and spam. FS cannot be a basic attack because of Mangled and other status affects.
This is what I have so far, feel free to suggest stuff and add-on to what I have, I can edit the post and type what you have into the document. Also, please be sure to point out where I sound like an idiot. I’ve tried to make this as a better version of the Dev’s original design for the Legion. A slash and dash Killer, if you will. This will be going in General Discussions as it is both a suggestion but I need people to contribute!
Thank you all for reading!
Comments
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Why does M1 need to drain the power?
Like, at all?
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Because Devs and DBD.
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ok but this is @Pulsar's suggestion. And since he's bringing it up I can ask why he isn't just removing it outright.
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Never said you couldn't ask and I don't know why he doesn't remove it outright. It's a stupid mechanic and I'm not sure why it was ever included. Sorry if I come off as aggressive or tilted, these new Legion changes have me real pissed off.
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I'm just rolling my eyes about it at this point.
Legion won't be good until they embrace his lethality potential.
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Point taken. I figured there was a reason, but I cannot think of any.
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Legion cannot have a lethal power without creating a new Killer. Deep Wounds is atrocious, we know that. It is either hilariously weak and unfun or hilariously strong and unfun.
In order to keep close to what the Devs designed him as, I had to make it into a legitimate stalling power with the ability to down if Survivors get cocky.
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It is indeed a redundant mechanic. I have removed it from my list. This is why I wanted the Community's input :)
Thank you!
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I like this, it doesn't add anything they don't already have it just changes what they actually do and some values.
I really like the 3rd FS stab on an injured Survivor downing them, that encourages Survivors to heal and not just walk around injured. And to be honest it almost isn't even necessary since they're already injured so it's kind of a placebo effect of a power and if Survivors complain about that they don't understand that if you're injured you can get downed lol
The 3% debuff is fine and almost not worth it but you can stack it with Thana and Dying without it being oppressive. Legion is fast and using his power isn't punishing and nor does it actually inconvenience Survivors at all since they're just loud and bleeding everywhere and the debuff is negligible.
I would be happy with this and the change is super simple since it's changing very little.
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My important question is, will it help them out of D-tier or do I need to add more? If I do, what would you recommend?
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So I re-read it, I was incredibly bummed out when I read it the first time, and I do have questions now.
So the Legion we have now encourages players to pinball between Survivors with DW and the Pin add-ons, basically it says use your power even if they're injured. Your version doesn't have this. Once you hit everyone with FS they all have the 3% and if they choose not to heal then they're always a 1 shot but then you have no reason to use your ability anymore; you'd be exactly like Plague. Once she Breaks everyone she has no use for her ability anymore until someone cleanses, once everyone is injured by Legion they have no reason to use their power and it takes a long time to get their power back so it isn't even worth using to travel around the map since that would be a waste since it takes 30 seconds to do it again.
This version of Legion has no use for their power once everyone is injured, they become a M1 Killer. You can use FS to vault windows in a chase but that's stupid because of the stun which even if it is 3 seconds it is still enough time to get to a window or pallet meaning you wasted your time by using your ability. Why should Legion pinball between Survivors once they're injured? If they heal then they do but once they're injured it doesn't do anything.
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Old speed not bad its now between old and nerf LEgion ;D
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The 3% stacks per Survivor afflicted. I saw the problem with Plague, no debuff. 12% isn't a lot, but it is an incentive. I have to balance with Thana and Dying Light in mind.
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Oh it's PER Survivor afflicted? I thought everyone just got a flat 3.
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Nope, if you hit one Survivor, they get a 3% debuff. You hit another? Those two now have a 6%. Think of it as a small Thana. It still doesn't affect the rate at which you are healed and it doesn't affect Survivors not afflicted with FS.
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OK so even if you don't have Thana Survivors will still want to heal, kind of like a better Plague since Survivors don't have a reason to cleanse. OK yeah this would work then.
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im actually in favour with this when i saw the patch notes i was unhappy weaken the stall for more speed and i knew they were going to do something with the nemisis and beast of prey umm wont say expolit but will say an oppurtunity of old legion lol but what you have suggested is actually fair and would be fun i do hope the devs respond as i cant see how they can ignore all the negative feedback from people and this would seem to resolve alot of issues. @Peanits im going to tag a dev as i think it should be something to look
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Just let Legion rest in peace. It's obvious the devs hate him. Maybe he'll get reworked in two years. Until then, take the Freddypill. He is fun.
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Nope, gonna keep at this.
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im already a freddy main lol but i do enjoy legion but i feel like we cant drop this and wait for two years. i cant see devs hating on legion unless they all play survivors lol(jk), but i think it would be hard to deny that these changes they did was not well recived both in ptb and live (even though its been two days i have seen alot of negative feedbacks over the postive) even if it just a dev saying we will look at this suggestion or at least something to say that they acknowledge the concerns. i would be happy to just hear something along that lines
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I understand they want to avoid knee jerk reactions. However, now would be a great time for some sort of official statement. Even if its just, "We aren't sure what to do, but we are working on it."
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Go with the Legion's Blessing. This is a good idea, and I enjoy the flavor. It's just as good as @MongByeolBuddies 's "Mob Mentality."
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I like his design, the only problem is that I don't think the devs are interested in giving him a full redesign, hence why my design is more of adjustment.
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I would love for the Devs to look at this, as it is probably my most constructive creation. I think it resolves most of the major gripes with Legion.
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Sorry to message you again, but, do you mind if I use some of the suggestions from your Legion megathread?
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Go for it. You can use whatever you need.
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Thank you :)
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Alright, I'm thinking of making another change to the original document, currently thinking about adding a little map pressure, any ideas?
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Would the m1 attack penalty go away, the map pressure of the Legion would already be better, because we would be able to use frenzy more often as before, but besides making frenzy stronger with this and similar buffs, I have no idea.
The reason for this is, because I like to avoid a strong dw ability. That is just my reason for it, because I prefer a Legion with a stronger frenzy abilitiy above a Legion with a stronger dw abilitiy.
I think even so far -and with this for sure to far for the most people- that the dw ability should be erased in exchange to a damage only ability with maybe 10-20% of the strength of the m1 attacks.
In exchange to that, we could hit people with dw multiple times again.
But that are just my thoughts of dw and don't take them serious.
The real and important thing are the m1 penalty imo and that you have already mention ;) :).
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I'd add input to the Legion changes, but killer queues seem to be very very VERY LONG to the point where I have to cancel out and go to work.
But currently, I' running Thanatophobia, Ruin, Enduring, and BBQ with Green Legion Pin and Stolen Sketchbook... With the most overpowered thing in the game... Christmas sweater Suzie.
Just wish I could get into a game to play it.
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In my rework, I completely removed Deep Wounds and replaced it with a new effect.
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I know. Your idea sounds also intersting.
Sometimes I wish, there would be a ptr online to directly test things like that out. Needless to say, that never gonna happen. I would like to make a test with your adjustments, thats for sure.
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I wouldn't say never, there are simply more pressing issues than developing a PTR. I appreciate the compliments though, they mean a lot :)
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I love me some Christmas sweater Susie. What platform are you on? I play on Xbox and the queue's were fine last night.
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PC
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Ah, well, I can't really say too much then.
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i think ff should apply the mangled effect anyhow. youre PLUNGING a knife into a body.
and if you know anything about knife wounds or medicine, the fatality, bleeding, damage, and complications are way higher with a stab over a slash or chop. a slash will hit bone usually before vitals. a stab is deep, hard to treat, and really messy because of the depth of penetration compared to a slash.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1285245/?page=5
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True. According to the world of medicine, you are 100% right. However, it doesn't really work for balance. Slashes cause bleeding and can be a hinderance, but they are treatable.
But let's be real, after getting hit with a chainsaw or hanging on a meat hook, you probably wouldn't be doing so hot, realism doesn't come into play much.
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i mean.... YEAH.... lol
you right, you right....
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Okay, I like to idea, but there's a few things I'd like to change if you don't mind.
If you disagree, which is fine, we can try to find a solution together by arguing points!
FS Should Apply:
- Hemorrhage
- New Health State: Critical State (Survivors will have 90 seconds to heal themselves)
Hemorrhage
Hemorrhage is buffed to have a Bloodhound effect where blood trials are easier to see.
Sloppy Butcher no longer inflicts the Hemorrhage effect.
Bloodhound will reveal the auras of all injured survivors for 3/4/5 seconds after you damage a generator or pallet.
Survivors suffer a 6%/8%/10% hindered status effect towards walking and crouching speeds while injured.
Deep Wounds (Survivors will have 90 seconds to heal themselves)
This version is different because you have a timer that slowly decreases to 0 seconds and will only pause while the affected survivor is running. Once the timer expires, the next attack by FS will down you.
Critical State is a new health state that will only be applied to survivors who take a hit while they have the Endurance status effect. This is exactly like the previous Deep Wounds Status effect, but it's now considered a health state and healing action.
FSing survivors who are already Deep Woundes will have no effect and cancel the power at whatever the progress meter was at. While in Frenzy, red markers represent survivors who aren't Deep Wounded and white markers represent survivors who's Deep Wound timer expired. Downing a survivor with Frenzy will not cancel your power.
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Something I don't really understand. Why the hell does a deep wound disappear when you're hit? Was the wound healed? but shouldn't a deep wound get worse?
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the critical state timer shouldn't go down in a chase
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I like the idea.
But, I was always fond of the idea of making ambushes with the other legion members. (They could be wearing the body cosmetics of other legion members, or heck, the player can set up how the ambushers look, but the default will be Suzie, Joey, and Julie [or Frank, if they are wearing the Julie body piece].)
idk, I just always thought that it would be cool for the killer to feel like there are multiple of them. The main Legion member will set the ambush location, when a survivor triggers the trap, they'll spawn 1 legion member, chase, and stab with frenzy, then go to a spot not seen by survivors and despawn.
Just a bit of map pressure to their kit. Idk how popular it could be, but it fits with the lore.
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Hmm...
This is, by design, the most interesting direction I've seen for a Legion rework idea, of course because Deep Wound is out and Frenzied Slash is in. I'm honestly not sure how I can give too much detailed though on it, because it's a completely unique concept, but here I go.
I think there's a bit of design clash with wanting FS to be strongest in chase but also even more useful in game delay than it previously was. Yeah, Hemorrhage and Exhaustion is something new and exciting, but it seems pretty unlikely that tracking would even become an issue when the stun time when FF ends is reduced and the blurring is removed. Additionally, during this stun time, survivors could also take advantage and stop running in order to relieve some Exhaustion. 2 seconds is pretty short (5 seconds would likely be more useful), and this would probably be pretty niche if the survivor has Sprint Burst, Lithe, Head On, or is not using an Exhaustion perk at all.
I also do have concern with FS' delay effect. It's definitely way stronger than current FF. Deep Wound is nothing compared to an injury and healing and repair speed penalties, especially because survivors actually need to heal in order to avoid being instadowned. This would make Forever Legion an issue again, as he could potentially have a double Thanatophobia effect along with Ruin, Pop, Corrupt, Surge, etc.
Definitely think that it's a smart move to remove the weird penalty with missing attacks and hitting survivors (AKA doing your job).
I'm not exactly sure how I can contribute to you idea and attempt to make it more balanced while maintaining the spirit of the design, because it's a weird, unique concept. However, I really like this odd approach at changing Legion, and I could see it working well if done right, this just needs a bit more work.
:)
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The Exhaustion being so short is by design. Survivors need to choose between gaining more distance or removing their Exhaustion, I do not want to lock them into one option, so it's up to them to decide which is more important. Thana no longer slows healing speed, and quite honestly, I could remove the healing speed penalty entirely and still get my point across.
His slowdown shouldn't be too oppressive, Plague is in a similar situation.
What I wanted to do was preserve the Legion's chase pressure, but have them leave a lasting effect that encourages Survivors to heal. Currently, when Legion hits you, you waste 12 seconds, which is nothing and it's usually a one-time thing.
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Yeah, I get the point of giving the survivors a choice between recovering from Exhaustion or making distance, but just a moderately safe loop, pallet, or window is enough to make up for the time lost I think, and usually in this situation, the survivor will have already used their Sprint Burst, Head On, or Lithe, so 2 additional seconds of Exhaustion becomes a non issue, and will only effect the primarily mid-chase Exhaustion perks such as Dead Hard, Smash Hit, and Balanced Landing. Also if the survivor just isn't running an Exhaustion perk, it becomes a non issue and they'll always make distance, which is why I'm always concerned with the proposition or addition of Exhaustion as a primary mechanic to a killer's power.
In this version of Legion, survivors will always, always, always have to heal-- what I mean with the potential double Thanatophobia effect. If all survivors are effected, that could be -32%, with the ever-present threat that Legion could down you in Frenzy.
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I've tried to edit it with your input in mind.
I misspoke when I said stacking. I meant that the effect will remain on those Survivors until they are fully healed, similar to Thana, not that it would continue to stack on every hit.
Considering the 3 second stun, Survivors will not make NEARLY as much distance as before with our lovely Live 4 second stun. The Exhaustion isn't meant to be a real hinderance, though I may bump it up to 4 seconds if you truly think it's not impactful enough.
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Sounds good. :)
I've been thinking of the idea of FF maybe not procing the post-hit speed boost, which would be more universal than Exhaustion, and also make Hemorrhage a bit more relevant. Thoughts?
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I have a question?
Maybe I read this wrong or missed something, but what's to stop Legion from just tunneling Survivors like original Legion?
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The same thing that stops current Legion.
It takes well over 45 seconds of stuns and cooldowns to do so
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