Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
So, was Legion buffed or nerfed? Here's the answer!!1!
no click bait :P
Ok, just a bit of setting: I'm currently a rank 2 killer (ps4), I play a lot of Legion and was really unhappy on some of the changes before the patch went live. Now that I played 10+ games I think I can try to summarise how really the new Legion feels.
The awesome
Vaulting speed.
The change in vaulting speed is so important, it cannot be understated. After the first big nerf to Legion they felt so sluggish and unarmed against good loopers, but now a survivor vaulting a window or a pallet gets itself in a very bad position, especially if they try to juke you. Very, very good.
The good
Feral Frenzy speed and the new pin add-ons.
The speed improvement is noticeable, even if not that groundbreaking as the vaulting speed is you can still create some new interesting plays, like blocking vaults or paths with much more ease.
The new pin add-ons mechanics are probably taking the spot though. Now there's a feeling to accomplish something other than simply injuring other survivors every time you chain a deep wound, and even if the debuff applied to survivors is only for 60 seconds, it can be important, especially against swf groups which would heal each other almost instantaneously. For now I'm just using the pin which applies the broken status effect, but depending on your builds others can work as well.
The bad (?)
Here's the thing: do you play a slow down Legion? If so, you will be really unhappy about the decreased mending time and the FF hits not applying any debuffs without add-ons. Forget about a Sloppy Butcher build with knife add-ons, it just won't work.
If instead you weren't relying on slow down builds, but you wanted an active one, maybe by using my sweetheart Save The Best For Last (STBFL)... you're in for a very good surprise.
Yes, STBFL tokens cannot be collected during feral frenzy, but also the opposite is true: you can't lose them.
What this means is that once you gain at least 4 tokens, which is not that difficult, your basic hits will start flowing very quickly, but you don't need to lose 4 tokens to down the obsession anymore.
Once you see her, use your FF for the first hit, and you'll preserve your stacks. By doing so you could even find someone else nearby you didn't notice, and actually saving the best for last :P - either way, you'll gain something from the situation.
Trust me: it's slightly slower to gain momentum with your tokens, but it's very easier to maintain them - especially because you can hit anyone in FF without second thoughts.
What about mending time, though? Well, there's an unexpected outcome coming from the quicker mending time - since a lot of survivors will (wrongly) mend as soon as you go in search of their team mates, chances are that eventually you'll see their red heart beat before FF runs out. Now what you can do is to apply your pin effect even to the original survivor, or in any case you'll have an idea on where an injured survivor is located.
I won't go so far to say that this is a buff - it still is a nerf because of the implications regarding slow down builds, but you can work around it and make it work anyway.
Conclusions
Is Legion fun to play? Yes, much more than before, a lot thanks to vaulting speed and the new pins.
Is Legion a viable killer on high rank? Well, it's not Spirit, but as I said, I'm rank 2 and play mainly Legion this season, so by definition I should say yes to this as well.
Should Legion be changed from here? I think some of their add-ons are borderline useless, and the FF ending stun is still slightly too long - I would take away between 0.2 and 0.5 seconds from it, just to see how it goes.
But mostly, should @UlvenDagoth reinstall the game and try Legion out? Yes of course :P.
Comments
-
Good post. This clarifies a lot to me.
3 -
You are really overestimating the Pin add-ons.
9 -
While I respect your analysis, I have to disagree. I think the cases where you are able to get FF rolling are few and far between and deep wounds is pretty much useless. I loved slow down legion and he's gone now leaving a fast, but ultimately weak killer.
8 -
I cannot disagree with you: if you loved slow down Legion, this new Legion is something you really won't like. You should try out some different builds. Mine is:
Hex Ruin, Monitor & Abuse, Pop, STBFL
I tried thana instead of STBFL but for my play style it doesn't work.
Post edited by Nobsyde on2 -
but FF doesnt apply the mangled status anymore, right?
1 -
Or you are really underestimating them, who knows!
1 -
Exactly - that's the reason why slow down builds with Sloppy don't work anymore. You can put a patch on it using dedicated pins, but the effect would be much less prominent.
0 -
The Pin addons are ok. Sloppy doesn't work anymore, but therefore you got the yellow Pin addon. You don't rely on Frenzy duration anymore because you got more speed. Also, it's almost impossible to dodge any Frenzy hit now when Legion vaults a pallet because of how fast he does it. Bamboozle is now pretty good. The only thing I don't like is the 4 second stun and a few Add-Ons. Otherwise he is pretty fun and solid now.
1 -
This was the most well done post, not talking about opinions, you are the exemple of a dedicated user. About Legion, I tough that people would change their minds after seing that vault and movement speed are HUGE™ stuff; I always tough that was the best buff for Legion, but there is a lot of things to be changed, mainly (I think) the cooldown
4 -
Thank you Bruce for the kind words, you're the best ^^.
I'll save you for last 😎.
2 -
Why do you think I got so upset in the first place? I tried them and instantly saw how badly they got screwed over. So no, I won't. Anyone that calls this a buff doesn't play Legion enough to understand the Killer (at least in my mind) That or they are massive suck ups (not exactly you). The movement speed "buffs" only feel better because they are a reverted nerf. That's all. Legion has no power in a chase, even less against survivors who stay injured and are any good at loops. The Deep wound is worse than worthless now, and none of the "Buffs" out weigh even the nerfs that come with them, let alone the 4 second slowdown, losing 50% of your power on an m1 and long long cool down we already suffered with. At the end of the day, Legion is a very loopable m1 Killer still, now with less perk synergy and even less slowdown.
Post edited by UlvenDagoth on3 -
Omg someone being positive about the Legion
I'm gonna nut
4 -
Well man, I do play Legion a lot and I do have a lot of success with them. If with the new patch you can't see how to make Legion work there are two possibilities: either you are not able to adapt, or you just don't want to.
If you don't want to, maybe because you like slow down Legion, that's totally fine - there's no reason to stick around a killer / game which you don't enjoy anymore.
If you're not able to... well, I'm sorry to hear that, maybe you just don't play Legion enough to understand the killer :).
Also, notice that I didn't say anywhere Legion was actually buffed, I just pointed out what were the changes and how those affect the game play. If, after reading what those changes are, you think that implicitly I'm stating that Legion was buffed that's all on your mind: in other words, you really think that the overall changes led to a buff, not me :).
What I can say (and in fact, I did) is that Legion, subjectively, is more fun to play.
3 -
Fun doesn't equal good. Fun is subjective. You have no argument for me. Everything you listed I see the negatives for, other than pallet vaulting speed. That is literally the only good thing in my eyes.
Don't even get me started on you saying I can't adapt or don't want too. I've played Legion almost exclusively SINCE THEY CAME OUT! I've had to roll with the punches and adapt and change and figure things out till I am sick of it now. I refuse to have faith in BHVR when they NERFED one of the weakest Killers. Literally the only thing Legion is good at is getting Emblems, Pips, and BPs which is prolly why you feel you are doing "Good" With them.
Oh and "you think that implicitly I'm stating that Legion was buffed that's all on your mind: in other words, you really think that the overall changes led to a buff, not me" HAVE YOU NOT SEEN THE THREAD WHERE IM MAD THEY NERFED THEM AND LEFT THE GAME?!
So you can take your insulting, condescending tone outta this talk right now or i'm not gonna bother talking to you in a thread YOU mentioned me in knowing i'd have issues with what you said.
3 -
I'm not condescending, I'm just trying to be polite with someone that just said that people who don't see Legion as you do are either bad at using the killer or massive suck ups - not the best way to approach the other speaker, don't you think?
I mentioned you because you raged (and considering the caps lock, still raging?) about the changes what, 24 hours after the patch? It really is not enough time to digest what changed, and since you uninstalled the game I honestly thought you would have taken pleasure to read that actually Legion is still a good killer - and maybe you were just too quick in your judgement. Apparently that's not the case, well, I'm sorry then, what else can i say?
Yes, I do double pip a lot, I 32k a lot and 4K a lot, and yes, I think this makes me if not good with Legion, at least decent? I don't know how else should I see if I am or am not proficient with a killer, other than pips, kills and bp.
3 -
Fun is subjective though good is not. Legion still is down there as one of the weakest killers because of primarily the stun and the addons not even working on the first stab (which is really dumb) ontop of them increasing the mending time instead of fixing the addons which made legion even worse. Maybe if he just lost the synergies id be fine with it but there was a lot of things that went into this. Especially the fact DW will never run out as long as you sprint.
3 -
Yes, fun is subjective, in fact I said it myself:
What I can say (and in fact, I did) is that Legion, subjectively, is more fun to play.
I'm not entirely sure what makes a killer good in your opinion though. I can agree that Legion is not top tier, but I don't agree with them being between the weakest though.
As for Deep Wound / mending timer changes... yeah, it's a bit of a controversial point. On paper those are nerfs that will punish Legion, but by playing I don't really see that much of a difference, in fact it often helped me (see the first post for a couple of examples).
This being said, I opened a thread yesterday with three possible changes to Deep Wound which could be interesting to see (but we won't see because @Peanits will never read them :P)
I copy them here:
Proposed DW changes
How can we make the DW effect more dynamic for a survivor POV, and more rewarding for a killer? I propose three possible changes (obviously pick just one).
- Mending needs to be completed in one single go, like Snapping Out for Doc. It's quick and easy enough (no skill checks...) to not be a problem when the killer is not around, but the change can be very interesting if the killer sticks around - you now are really a ticking bomb, but a skilled survivor can still work around it.
- While in DW a survivor is on the edge! So: while in DW the survivor hears a constant terror radius like if the killer is just behind them. Again, not a problem if the player is aware of its surrounding, but could lead to wrong decisions (e.g. fast vaults, dropping pallets, wasting time running far away etc)
- While in DW a survivor attention is all on its wounds! While in DW the survivor is affected by the Oblivious status effect. Basically the opposite of point 2, now the survivors could end up in a false sense of security, leading them to lower their alert and helping the killer to sneak out on them if so they wish.
2 -
Raged? My friend, I am depressed over the changes. What I rage about is people like you who don't see what they did to Legion. I've explained myself till i'm blue in the face, fought for legion changes for months and even had two mega threads of ideas for them.... for what? For the Devs to ignore it all and nerf Legion who was already one of the weakest? For people like you to tell ME that I don't know my favorite Killer who I've done so much for? SO, don't mention me again. You obviously had no idea i'd be so against you. Legion is not a good Killer and wasn't before. They are not fun, original, or anything other than an M1 Killer with a useless power that punishes you for using it.
Deep wound should be removed from the power so they can finally balance Legion instead of nerfing them into the ground. Legion needs a full rework. That's it.
0 -
Imagine thinking legion is good at all, much less thinking that after his nerf.
1 -
I really don't care if you agree with me or not, in fact I much prefer people who don't agree with me, that's the basis for any discussion - if we already are on the same page, what's there to talk about?
What I despise though is arrogance, and I'll leave you at that. Take care and I sincerely hope you'll find another game to enjoy in your free time :).
1 -
Imagine calling someone else arrogant when you called them out multiple times and then acted arrogant right back while telling them that they don't know anything about something they are well known for supporting. (oh and nice claims of constant 4ks and all with no proof. So "Killer Main, BTW") Have Fun in the Fog man. I'll come back when BHVR does something to earn my faith back. That's the main thing with all of this. I lost all faith in BHVR that they listen to feedback, know their own game, or understand anything about their community.
3 -
:)
0 -
Too bad this thread got hijacked. It started with a clear description of changes to a killer, which I really appreciated as someone who just started playing (and loving!) the game a few weeks ago, not only because it tells a lot about Legion, but because any pros/cons analysis like this helps newcomers like me to extrapolate and generalize to other aspects of gameplay.
I get now why fans of DbD are so addicted to this game. It's smart, it rewards being smart, and it punishes (or at least tries to punish) being stupid. "Stupid" here refers to my own stupid gameplay. I get slaughtered routinely, but never discouraged, because I know there's always a reason. What did I do wrong? Aside from poor execution of a loop or coming out of a locker too soon, what didn't I understand about the killer that got me killed? I eagerly await the end-game screen that reveals what perks the killer was using. Almost invariably it gives me an AHA! moment.
Like with Legion, for example: When I started playing, I was so proud of myself for using Dwight with Prove Thyself because, despite sucking at the game, I felt like it gave me a way to help the other survivors by working with them together on the same gens. For some reason I didn't yet understand, Legion kept showing up to spoil the party. I learned after that match what the Discordance perk does. It was actually a joyful revelation.
I know that's a facile example. My point is simply that DbD rests upon a unique density of argumentation that is really mind-blowing to newcomers but that experienced players might take for granted. That's why this thread is so fascinating to me. It focuses on an apparently radical change and attempts to sort out the consequences. Differences of opinion are to be expected, but I never would have comprehended the basis of disagreement without a clear description of what was the case, what changed, and how your behavior needs to change to be successful with this killer. So I hope that experienced players will continue to write posts like this, and I really, really hope that differences of opinion can be expressed respectfully so the discussion doesn't degenerate into aggressive rhetorical nonsense.
Edys, thanks for the post. I really appreciated it. Do more!
0 -
Thanks for the kind words!
I play 50/50 survivor and killer, with my go to killers being Hag, Legion and Doctor.
I enjoy make these kind of posts, which can help new or otherwise inexperienced players and at the same time be somehow useful for the more experienced ones, so if there’s some topic you would like me to address I’ll be glad to do that ^^.
P.S. the topic wasn’t really hijacked, yeah there was a bit of commotion but it was mainly in topic, don’t worry too much about that :)
0 -
First of all, no matter ifyou agree or disagree to it, this is a great, summerized post (except calling out someone who is clearly very upset about this, didn't really thought that one through)
Good job!
I still think this is overal a nerf but i do agree that it's not unplayable
I probably will still play with them
0
