People still saying DS is countered by not tunneling
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DS it irrelevant. I just slug the team.
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Not a counter against a good team
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the probem with ds is that gives 60 seconds of immunity were survivor are ruthless and do dumb things that nrmally would be punished. but u cant because they have immunity to do gens or whatever, going into the locker preventing sluging that person so u need to leave that person to not lose more time, that locker play shouldnt exist, no counter if u grab DS time if u leave that person is not sluged so it will come out of the locker and do a gen thinking he is immune to everything the killer can do and they pretty much are alright no counter at all with the locker play... it doesnt even give u the slug so at least they are not doing gens... not even that.
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Right! I play survivor too so I know why suriviors use it... because it is just so strong!!! So I don’t blame them, same as I can’t blame Them for using stupidly strong loops... I do the same thing as survivor
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Always works, especially when I camp altruistic teams.
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Yeah but at high rank unless they are not swf AND bad you won't run into that very often.
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It is fun watching them tear themselves apart.
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Even high rank happens ALOT especially with swf they are really altruistic.
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Its not always countered by not tunneling, unfortunately it often has to be countered by prioritizing a survivor's safety in situations where the killer has an opportunity to make a good play. The killer shouldn't have to give up on a play because a survivor perk guarantees almost total immunity from actual pressure for a whole minute. Borrowed time is annoying but 15 seconds isn't that long, and in the grand scheme it isn't that hard to work around when you see it coming. DS is a constant thorn in the killer's side that discourages them from being aggressive, which is hard enough to do for most killers as is. Maybe the time needs cut down to around 30 seconds and deactivate in the event that another survivor is downed or hooked, or when their next chase ends. I just don't think survivors should get to be untouchable for such a long time. Its like the issue with Spirit, its just not fun when the only counter is to not play the game.
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I can't count how many times I've had someone unhook, have me down the person unhooking, hook them, and then find and down the person who was just hooked, only to get DS'd. That's not tunneling in any, way, shape or form, and the fact that an anti-tunneling perk punishes me for not tunneling shows the inherent flaw in the perk. That itself can kill pressure and make you lose games if you eat it late game. DS is one of a few select few perks in the game that gives EVERY survivor added strength because even if they don't run DS, a killer feels like they have to slug you.
It shouldn't be my job to micromanage this survivor, or that survivor, and count in my head and "just leave them slugged" or whatever else you want to say. Just because you can do this, or you can do that, doesn't mean a perk isn't ridiculous. It's the same stupid argument people make with NOED. "Just destroy the totems" because that totally justifies a busted, crutch perk, right?
Do you know how ridiculous it is to run into a scenario like that, and you have to be aware of x person having DS, otherwise they can lead you on a short chase and jump in a locker, just wasting all of your time. Like, this perk was built to help survivors deal with people who tunnel, but all it ######### does is punish killers who play fair and are just good at the damn game.
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Trust me, it was worse Pre-Nerf...
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If you were to ask me right now (as a killer) which DS I would rather face, it would be the old one 100%. There was at least some counterplay.
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Completely agree upvote
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The majority of the time Ds counters tunneling. Will there be times that it punishes non tunneling behavior? Yes. Nothing works 100% of the time the way we'd like. But it does generally work as intended. Honestly if you want to counter Ds don't tunnel. That will counter it 90% of the time The rest of the time, slug them. Slugged or on hook they aren't doing gens. The amount of pressure is nearly the same. I will say Ds can certainly feel unfair during the end game. I'd even argue it should be tweaked to work differently during end game.
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What...
There was zero counter-play what do you even mean. Pre-nerf DS had no counter and it was essentially a free escape for a Survivor after a long chase...
Everyone could have it and you only needed to wiggle 40% of your bar to activate it as a non-obsession...
DS had one "counter" and it was Enduring... enduring cut the stun of DS down a bit... but that still doesn't mean they didn't get a free escape, which they could 100% exploit and extend for an even LONGER chase if possible.
If you go back to pre-nerf DS you'll see most people ran DS... there wasn't a time where I didn't encounter a DS in my lobbies. It wasn't till the nerf that you'd only see it once or twice... and it was mostly used by 1 or 2 Survivors.
You very rarely see it on 4 Survivors now, back than that was pretty common/common-ish...
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I assume they are referring to dribbling.
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That wasn't a counter either... dribbling would waste more time than it would save it...
You'd also prolong the DS... so if you messed up the next 2 dribbles or just don't do them... than you spent all that time dribbling them for nothing.
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I never said it was a good counter. But as I recall it was the counter people used.
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No I know, I'm just going off of what you said AS if he was saying it...
Just in case that's what he's referring to... which I could be 100% wrong if it isn't ... but there was only so many things that were considered "counters" to pre-ner DS... so it was either this or enduring that he's referring to.
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Just make enduring affect it again and boom, balanced.
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Fair enough.
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It's badly designed, simple as.
- It grants 60 seconds of invulnerability to the survivor. Sure, you can down them, but you can't pick them up even if you didn't effectively tunnel them. Why does this perk reward mistakes? If you get hooked and your team fail to save you and I coincidentally find you off the hook within a minute because of your mistakes, why am I punished?
"Oh that's your fault, just stop tunnelling"
Right because the survivor with the 60 seconds of invulnerability doing a generator right in front of me should be ignored right?
It needs to go, or be changed. In fact, if it waa deactivated upon meeting certain conditions (like touching a gen, saving a team mate, teammate being hooked) then it could be much fairer.
I'd bring back the wiggle to 35% before you can even use it so killers have a chance.
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You must be REALLY lucky then cause I don't get those teams
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DS is the #########. If you are wise you save it for after you are saved Twice, by then the game has rolled along and the Killer is getting desperate. It can save your ass everytime you use it, especially if your team is helping out with distractions, why wouldn't you use it?? DS is a Beast.
Even if you don't have it, the Killer might think you have it, so they leave you alone. Great perk.
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There is literally no chance that dribbling wasted more time than a survivor running away to a loop or safe point. And yea, enduring significantly cut down the stun time. Now there are no counters. Give me old DS any day.
I also don’t know what rank you are, but I see an average of 2-3 DS per game as a red rank survivor and killer.
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If they changed it to deactivate upon the next time you hook someone that would end These complaints. And it would still be anti tunnel
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People still saying DS has anything resembling counterplay, lol.
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It counters tunneling but also counters you just killing the survivors too fast. Is it my fault the survivors are terrible and go down from full hp twice within a minute?
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They could just add a mini-timer under people’s names to fix that after they ever get unhooked?
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Pop goes the weasel and make your choice are the best anti-DS perks. They encourage you to not tunnel to begin with, but if you can't make use of them they are the best DS timer.
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The counterplay is camping them to dead so they can't use it. Same with keys. It's an unfortunate part of the game.
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True that MYC does give you indication sometimes... but don’t think killers should need a perk to out-time BT and DS personally. Also if you’re trying to catch a blatant survivor making a save then MYC won’t proc.
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I mean I use them either way, because they are some of the best killer perks in the game. The built-in DS timer is just a bonus.
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Ehh 2 and 3 don't need to happen since if the timer only goes away when healed what's the point of healing just rush gens in the killers face and he can't grab you cause of ds its just easily and highly abusable just get rid of the second condition
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Except keys can still be picked up by other survivors.
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The only time I had issues with DS as a killer was... in fact, when I was tunneling. And a 5 seconds stun with a 15 second chase is not so long. If you're chasing another surv and you hear that the DS survivor was unhooked, and you approach there well, you are tunneling. There are four survivors, 60 secs seems to be long but is not. Just chase and hook someone else.
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Ok, I hook a survivor and they get unsaved literally 5 seconds later as I’m turning and starting to walk away. I turn around and down the person who made the save, hook them and the previously unhooked person is still right there and goes down. All of this happens in a minute, I don’t consider this tunneling as much as the survivors playing very poorly.
Generally if they’re this bad then the stun won’t be too bad so I eat DS... but still it’s clearly not an anti tunnel perk only
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DS is anti tunneling perk and it's also a crutch which rewards for failure. It's also massive passive buff for survivors if you need to slug every potential survivor who you think "might" have DS. Therefore potential DS is limiting your map control and snowball potential. Situations like this, it's better to eat the DS and then actually tunnel the survivor out.
I personally camp and tunnel all survivors if i get hit by DS without actually tunneling them.
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Well, exactly that happended to me yesterday. And you know what? It was my fault, because I wanted an easy hook.
it's like saying NOED it's unfair for survivors because you're being punished by doing the main objetive. You wouldn't say that would you? If someone unhook when you attempt to leave and you hit the unhooked but... surprise he has endurance, don't say BT is unfair as nobody forced you to come back nor hit the unhooked. You have two options with a DS man a) hit them and slug them (of course meanwhile searching another survivor), b) hit and grab them so that will disable their DS forever (Even if you loss the chase, sometimes it's better to disable their DS, specially if it's the early game so it won't become problematic in the late game).
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Many good killers have already adapted to ds and they never let you use it. I probably used DS twice this entire week and I bring it every single match. I suggest you do the same and adapt. It's really not that hard to avoid DS.
Unless they do something else to punish camping/tunneling, DS is fine.
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How can DS be abused if you are paying any level of attention? They jump in a locker, guaranteed DS. Either move on to pressure the map, or pull them out, eat the DS, then hunt them down. The whole process is simple. I have no problem eating DS If the survivor is being stupid and coming at me. EGC is another story. If they jump in the locker, I'll back up and wait. They have to come out at some point or die. Either way, they are not making it out. Thanks for the guaranteed kill.
I don't understand the crying about where DS is now. It is much better than before and is a reasonable defense perk. Sometimes it let's the survivor escape the match, but that is an uncommon scenario. Considering I can run any number of powerful perk combos that completely hose survivors is fine, but DS is abused? Nah, sour grapes.
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Red Rank Killer and Survivor, and I see 1 or 2 sometimes but not as much as pre-nerf DS. (I don't see why I have to tell you my rank or main... but if it gets the point across than... sure?)
You seriously don't know how good you have it from before... As a Killer main I barely get hit by DS AT ALL now, the only times I do is when the Survivor that unhooked the previous hooked Survivor is very well hidden and the hooked Survivor goes into a locker to avoid being downed and slugged... than I just grab them and get stunned and move on from the area. I could of easily just waited there to grab them or leave the area, but instead I humor it because why not? The "unhooker" is long gone anyways... but this happens VERY rarely and the unhooker is usually 90% of the time found nearby the previously hooked Survivor.
But, most of the time I find the guy who unhooked them and than proceed to chase and down them... so post-nerf DS compared to Pre-nerf DS is FAR easier to avoid 100%. Before, you couldn't avoid it at all... it was always going to happen unless you dribbled.
And if you dribbled from any hooks that were far away (which was most the time) you were easily body blocked and got wiggled out. Dribbling isn't a counter, it's a band-aid to the actual problem and doesn't stop it from happening...
Enduring also only cut the stun down a bit, it didn't actually stop them from stunning you... you can't say it's a counter because it didn't actually stop it from happening... they could still stun you and go to any window/pallet loop nearby...
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How is it an easy hook? I literally chased someone else down and hooked them first, then came back. If you don’t move away from a hook in 30 seconds you deserve to get hit again.
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DS is at it's strongest in the end game. There people will try to unhook in your face and if the gates are close, they will get out. What can you do as killer? Nothing! Either let them crawl out and hope their DS has run out or you get stunned and they give you a nice little butt dance.
I do run DS when I play survivor and it got me out a few times, when I shouldn't be able to leave the trial. DS is still OP, but no longer broken, like it was not so long ago. There needs to be a change to it, so it wont be as strong as it currently is. Not saying make it useless. Also slugging is not a counter. It's an annoyance for both sides that they have to deal with.
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Greatly reducing effects= counter. Breaking up dribbling required great coordination, so it was uncommon. DS usually wouldn’t activate for the non obsession because they had to wiggle first.
I played the game with old DS and I play now; I would rather face the old version.
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It wasn't really greatly... that also isn't countering it. A reduced effect doesn't = it was countered. Breaking up dribbling also didn't require good coordination... you just drop and pick up and if anyone came up near you than you'd get body blocked and wiggled out/DS stunned.
I also played the game before DS was nerfed, I prefer post-nerf because it's far more tame... but it's your opinion, you can prefer pre-nerf DS if you want.
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So you get to use DS only twice a week and yet you find it worth a perkslot.. sounds like a lie to me. DS is just a crutch still just like noed
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No, I'm really am serious. I am thinking about taking it off, many of my friends already did. I played with DS all day today , got to use it once and the killer could have easily avoided that.
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You and most of this community don’t understand counterplay. When most people use that word on the forums, they basically mean a foolproof option that works every time and killers can do nothing about. Using this definition, it is obvious that old DS had better counterplay.
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If I humored it had counter-play than it was still worse than post-nerf DS. Post-nerf isn't seen more than pre-nerf, post-nerf barely works outside of being tunneled or hiding in a locker, post-nerf doesn't activate everywhere and anywhere you're downed outside of being unhooked previously AND being tunneled, post-nerf can easily be circumvented by the exact thing some people hate hearing "don't tunnel."
People say that because it's true... if you don't tunnel a Survivor with DS than you'll barely EVER be hit by it. Before, you'd be hit by it anywhere and everywhere... it was seen more often AND was the most used perk for any Survivor in-game... you'd never see anyone not use it outside of their build UNLESS they wanted to change things up...
Why do you think I barely get hit by it besides the few times I somehow lose the unhooker and only find the unhooked Survivor? I either wanted it to hit me or It somehow was on 59 seconds and hit me out of nowhere...
Even if I find the person who was previously unhooked... 9 times out of 10 I just down and leave them.
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