Which do we balance around. The 1v4 or the 1v1

If the team collectively is more skilled than the one Killer, the results should speak for themselves, no?

Because you balance around a whole game, not just one aspect. The chase is one aspect of the game, not the entire game.

I don't know why people even debate this. You have to balance equally for both. That is the correct and only philosophy. If you balance too far for the 1v4, you begin ignoring the skill of the survivor and if you balance too far for the 1v1 you begin ignoring the skill of the killer.

Step 1: Stop dancing around the games win conditions. They are defined in the tutorial and everything, so why are they so against putting emphasis on them?

I mean, that kinda goes without saying.

I think the simplest way to put it is like this: Saying "chases should be balanced around 1v4" does not mean "just make the Killers stronger in a chase and leave the rest as is." It means "balance the game as a whole around the aforementioned premise, chases included."

He's saying while you're chasing the survivor the other survivors is doing something that ultimately works against your goal as the killer, the other survivors. It doesn't even have to be gens. It could be healing, cleansing your active totems, or if there's one survivor left, looking for the hatch.

The 1v1 aspect is still extremely important as well. Survivors in chases need to be able to affect chases according to their skill. And that's what BHVR is taking into consideration as well. That's why it's important for killers to have both powers that help with chases and with map pressure. If the game was only balanced around 1v4, not considering the 1v1 aspect, we'd have multiple killers in this game that would be uncounterable, even though they are not op. In that case killer players would face an entirely different problem, 30 minute queue times.

I also heavily disagree that the killer's skill does not have a sufficient impact on how long chases can go, or even on the match itself. Unless you're playing one of the really bad killers, your skill matters as much as the survivors skill, both when it comes to chases and map pressure. You don't always have to hope for the survivor to mess up. Of course this depends on the map you are playing on and the loops you are chasing a survivor at, but still.

It's probably true that the majority of killers, or at least a fair amount of them, are not viable against extremely optimal survivors teams, most likely swf teams. But these overly organized swf teams are probably like 1% of the community, and a game like DBD can't balance solely around the best of the best. Even those teams can still be beaten if you get lucky, and nobody can play perfectly 100% of the time.

"Survivors in chases need to be able to affect chases according to their skill."

I never said they shouldn't. I believe they should be able to affect chases based on their skill. Their affect is prolonging the chase.

"That's why it's important for killers to have both powers that help with chases and with map pressure"

That's why the game has a lot of issues as well currently because most killers don't have both those.

'If the game was only balanced around 1v4, not considering the 1v1 aspect, we'd have multiple killers in this game that would be uncounterable, even though they are not op."

I do not believe this. What are you using as your criteria for a statement like that? This feels like hyperbole.

". Unless you're playing one of the really bad killers, your skill matters as much as the survivors skill, both when it comes to chases and map pressure."

Really bad killers equates to 3/4 the games killer roster. I'm assuming best of the best survivors against the best of the best killers at rank 1.

"You don't always have to hope for the survivor to mess up."

You do if you aren't playing one of the few best killers in the game.

"It's probably true that the majority of killers, or at least a fair amount of them, are not viable against extremely optimal survivors teams, most likely swf teams."

SWF is a clear outlier, but I would argue that even a top tier solo group of 4 still make most of the killers unviable.

"But these overly organized swf teams are probably like 1% of the community, and a game like DBD can't balance solely around the best of the best"

I look up each group in my lobby prior to games starting and it's much, much higher than 1%. That said, I am less referring to SWF which we all already know is broken and more so just top tier solo's which at rank 1 I do not think are that rare at all as I think the skill ceiling for survivors to get to that point is quite low. Survivors could be mediocre at looping and still win simply because of gen speeds if they know how to prioritize their time.

"a game like DBD can't balance solely around the best of the best."

I think every other game balances from the top down, not from the bottom up.

I also don't think this is narrowed down to a should killers be OP or UP. Killers could simply be buffed a decent amount to be able to better have a chance against the top tier survivors while still not ruining the experience for lowers.

I do still think they should change gen requirements based on rank which would solve some of these "balance for top but not hurt the low ranks" issue. That's for another topic though.

The only way this game could be balanced is if the whole experience was based on stealth.

Once a survivor is seen the killer would have to be able to easily walk over to them and knock the survivor instantly.

That way the survivor skill is based on stealth while the killer is based on finding the survivor.

Currently this is the killers objective but survivors dont need to stealth the game to win they have stealth, numbers, and chase getaway potential.

Only way I see this game being balanced as a 4v1 and not a 1v1 is if terror radius and red stain are removed and survivors have to actually use their senses to detect the killer instead of being giving a 32 meter warning (excluding hag and M&A) and red stain so you know where a killers looking.

I think the game should be balanced around 4v1 maybe even *5v1.

*Why 4/5v1... That was just for me a other way to say that killers should be strong enough to struck fear in the hearts of survivors.

Some people say a win should be "earned" but I am not sure if that really describes it, imo.

The survivors just should go out of a match and got their "adrenaline dose" and say to themself "that was a hell of a match" - if they survive the confrontation.

The problem is, this you will never achive with killer/s that are to weak. If a basekit of a killer is to weak, the killer becomes more of a clown where survivors can make fun of, as that they would feel the pressure to do everything necessary to leave the map, as fast as possible.

And that leads me to the opinion that many killers should be buffed (not all). Imo, they should be slightly op. Slightly, not op af, because then the fun turns into frustration for the survivors and in boredom for the killers (like it is also pretty boring when you play a killer that is weak *cough*).

It has to be 1v4. A single survivor should not be able to run a killer for the full 5 gens. Killers should not have to leave good survivors or survivors at OP loops for fear of losing all the gens. The survivor's objective while getting chased should not be to loop the killer indefinitely, it should be to waste as much time as possible for their team. If every chase between survivor and killer can easily lead to all survivors escaping, then what's the point of chasing? What's the point of playing killer?

"That literally is not what happens at all. Survivors can currently do gens vastly faster than a killer has time to complete his objective."

That's untrue because if that was the case then all killers wouldn't have an average of over 50% kill rate.

"They practice and improve at the game like any other game. You balance from the top down, not the bottom up. This is how every other successful game functions."

You said the game should be a 1 vs 4 aspect, so how can they improve when there is no 1 vs 1 skill required for them to play against a killer? So if you are saying they should improve and be capable of holding the killer for a longer time, then you are agreeing that the game should have a 1 vs 1 aspect.

Not only that but how can they improve when the killer is constantly ending chases with them quickly? They are getting little to no feedback on what they are doing wrong because a killer is always meant to win chases from what you said. So how can they improve when they know there chase time would only matter against the killer they are playing with. So when up against a rank 1 or 10 killer, they know they have no chance because a killer is capable of ending chases quickly or winning it regardless of how good the surivior is.

Also since you want killers to get buff for the 1 vs 4 aspect, then killers such as the spirit would have a quicker chase time. Not only that, but killers that are already capable of having a high win rate, would just become even stronger which would just make being a new comer to the game even worst.

So you want the game to be focus on red ranks and swf. So how would solo suriviors and new comers stand a chance when all killers of whatever ranks, when all killers can beat a rank 1 surivior team. This would just make it impossible for new comers and solo surivior team to be able to win. In that logic of players improving, then couldn't you say the same for killers on how the game currently is? Afterall, they just need to improve and get good at the game.

Dead by daylight is different and unique to every other successful game. It isn't meant to be a competitive game, which is also why there is no tournaments unlike other successful games such as fortnite, black ops and e.t.c.

"No, the devs have already stated you should NOT be drawing conclusions from this data as it is HEAVILY flawed and inaccurate. The devs have stated this over and over and over on these forums but posts like these keep coming. There are a multitude of factors this data does not take into account which is why the devs have said this."

That still doesn't ignore the kills a killer is getting from each game. Not to mention if you don't want to count that data, then I can just bring out other data the devs have released such as:

"No one is comparing a rank 20 killer to rank 1 survivor."

You understand that by you talking about focusing on a 1 vs 4 aspect, there is other things to include such as how well a rank 20 killer would do in comparison to rank 1 surivior team. Afterall, since the game is focus on a 4 vs 1 than there is little to nothing a rank 1 surivior can do because the game wouldn't have a 1 vs 1 aspect to it. So there would be no indication on how a you can tell the difference between a rank 1 surivior to a rank 20 surivior.

"No, just because the game would be balanced around a 1v4 does not mean no skill is required to win the game."

Skill required would make it have a 1 vs 1 aspect because a player would be able to go against another player to equal the playing field. Otherwise if there is a 1 vs 4 there would be little skill involve in which would make it hard to tell the difference between a rank 1 to rank 20 surivior. It's obvious you want killers to get buff, so with that being said, there would be limits to what a surivior can do before in which they can do now. From that limit, it lowers the skill required which would just make ranking pointless because any surivior would quickly pick up on it.

"That literally isn't what happens at all. We have a ranking system. Yes it is a flawed ranking system, but what you saying isn't what happens outside of a swf."

Even though you are not saying it, you are sounding like you are referring to something like that. The game becoming a 1 vs 4 aspect only would just lower skills required to suriviors which would just allow any body that hop on to beat a rank 1 player. There is no reason why they can't because killers that were already strong would just become even more stronger and unfair against suriviors.

"I have literally said that the point is to waste the killers time, I have never said to take that away. A minute? Seriously? If the chases lasted a minute ya'll have completely incinerated that killer with 0 kills unless he stands in front of you facecamping. The game was not designed for chases to last even remotely close to one minute. If you look at chase times compared to gen times this is clear. If your chases are lasting that long and ya'll aren't completely destroying the killer then you are playing at low ranks and your team is doing absolutely nothing."

You want killers to get buff, right? So it's common sense that chase time would become shorter. Also, I never said that you wanted to take it away not refer to it. I was simply saying that chases would last shorter, that's all.

Chase time can last at average against a spirit 35 seconds, so with killers getting buff. You can expect chases to last way less than that if the game changes to a 1 vs 4 aspect. This information was gathered by Scott Jund while using one if not the best surivior map against a spirit. You can see it towards the end of the video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lfi9mH05hE

"It has already been said that these stats are NOT accurate and you should not be drawing conclusions from them, said by the devs. Stop trying to use these flawed stats."

Once again, the stats still shows the kill rate of what killers are getting and the devs have not said anything to disagree with what the graph said. All they did say was that conclusion was not to be drawn, they didn't say the graph isn't fact. So that excuse is still invalid. Also it doesnt matter rather or not you want to agree with it because the devs had made a previous stats during August this year in which they never said anything wrong about it. Even back then kill rates were above average against good killers.

"That is not what is being said whatsoever. Making the game balanced around a 4v1 does not make you auto lose to a rank 20 killer. That's just ridiculous."

That is what you are saying because all a surivior can do against a killer is mind game, loop and hide. You wanting killers to become stronger would just make mind game and looping less efficient than they already are from unsafe pallets. Hiding would become the new method which still won't work because there are perks killers can use to track suriviors. So you are pretty much lowering the capability a surivior can do in a game which is why I said a rank 20 killer can beat anyone. Scott Jund already confirmed spirit chase time last 35 seconds at average, so with a buff it would just be lowred even more.

"You do realize that with how short gen times are that for a killer to have a chance of winning he would have to down survivors in 20 seconds or less on every chase right? What you are saying is unreasonable is literally the requirement the killer has to have a chance of winning."

I mean if you look at the stats of how long games last at average, it doesn't seem to be as challenging or impossible as you make it seem. Also that is what you are trying to refer because killers are already making chases last that quickly or around the same time. So buffing them more would just result in lower chase time.

"Oh you mean as opposed to now with all the "fun" the killer is having getting looped for 5 gens? You act like the killer experience is fun in its current state."

So Mori isn't a thing in which can take away a user experience in less than 2 minutes of the game? Face camping and tunnelling isn't a thing? There is way more unfun stuff a killer can also do to a surivior, so I don't get your point. From how you are making it sound, you want killers to be able to ruin a surivior's experience even more, and allow the killer's experience to become more fun. Otherwise you would have spoke about the un un things killers can do because you play both side, right? So why is it that all I'm hearing is, make killers experience more fun while making suriviors experience worst.

"The game IS a 4v1, so it should be balanced around a 4v1 this is simply common sense."

The game also HAS a 1 vs 1 aspect such as perks, vaults and pallets that a surivior can use to make the game a 1 vs 1 against the killer. So what's your point here?

"Based on your opinions I do not believe you play both sides at high rank. I think if you did your opinions would change a lot."

You are saying it as if you are one to talk about playing both side. You haven't mention once the things killers can do to win games quickly against a surivior. So with things such as Mori still existing with the 4 vs 1 aspect begin pushed more forward. You are pretty much saying killers should get a free win against all noob suriviors which would just ruin the market for dead by daylight since. All you have done is talk about killer without any thoughts or regard to suriviors. I play both side and both side are pretty much as bad as each other. Killers with ultra rare add ons with Mori against a solo team. Suriviors with tool boxes and auto haven map offering against a low tier killer.

so what exactly is this thread about then? why come up with 1v1 and 1v4?

The game has to be balanced around the 1v4 aspect because although the chases are 1v1, the result of a chase shouldn't be the killer getting looped for 5 gens, it should be the survivor bought his team time to do gens. Each survivor should be contributing to distracting the killer for a portion of time.

If you balance the game around the chase, then survivors will always have an advantage. The only "solution" they've implemented to stop looping is bloodlust, which is such a ######### mechanic to begin with because when you get pallet stunned you lose it if it is in conjunction with a long wall or a scenario where you have to break the pallet.

With the current state, a survivor must make multiple mistakes to get caught and if their team isn't doing generators, then they deserve to lose. Killers must snow ball the game into their favor early to have a chance. This results in games either taking a long time, as the killer is looped until the gens are done, or quick games where the killer gets 3/4k but doesn't rank up because he didn't play for emblems.