Why the complain?
Hello out there
Please read everything before you post.
First of all i want to say that i am not here to offend anybody, but i am really curious what you opinion about this topic is, which is for some reason a bit overlooked. Also, i want you to correct me if i get something wrong.
Second this is not a Thread about emblemb or bloodpoints.
What we see are statistics on how certain Killer perform on avarage on all ranks. This means that it includes Solo and SWF incl Consol and PC.
If we excluse the nurse (she is a very hard killer to master and performs overall bad on console), the Killrate is between 55 and 70%. On redrank its even higher, up to 60-80%.
So, if i get this all right, this just means, that Killers are overall overpowered. I was always wondering as someone who plays Killer and Survivor equaly why so many Killer mains in the Forum complain. Dont we see here that we as a Killer get more then enough Kills? Actually TO MANY? I always had the feeling that i get to many kills, especially for the performance i delivere.
A balanced Matchmaking would be a 2K on average in my opinion
- What are your thoughts about this?
- Are Killer overpowered?
- Is this statistic somehow missinterpretated by me?
- Do you agree that a ballanced game would be an average of 2 kills?
Kind regards
Comments
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How did depip squad proved it?
You say that most survivor are bad at the game, and Killers are gifted pro gamer somehow? I dont think it is the main reason, why Killer perform so much better then Survivors.
I dont think we should look up for any excuses here. Red rank (and there are the best survivor, no argument possible) is apparently even better for the Killer - Kill Rate 60% - 80%.
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One good su
This. One good survivor has the potential to escape alive, but 4 good survivors against one good killer can drastically change the balance and destroy a killer if they dont play 100% optimally. Making it more stressfull to manage, not exactly harder but stressfull non the less
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What has that to do with the statistic? We can see that the Killer is performing better. Your point makes no sense to me sorry.
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The thing this data shows is that the killers are getting kills. What it doesn't show is how the matches went, how the kills happened, how many times the survivors where hit, how many hooks in total in the match, if the survivors where killed in one hook or 3, how quickly the gens where completed etc.
For example, lets use the 2 kills 2 escapes. If a killer gets 2 kills, and 2 people escape through the exit gates, odds are that killer will depip or black pip. A killer can get 2 kills by just camping a two guy to death, or he could play "fair" 2 hook everyone and everyone escapes.
This data only shows the kills, without anything else this is pretty useless data
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To many survivors are hanging around red ranks but are absolute potatoes. They waste shack pallet against Legion in frenzy mode, urban evade at the corner of the map etc, suicide 1St hook etc
It's easy to pip as survivor, but very difficult as killer in comparison. Low skilled survivors verse high skilled killers and you will get these statistics.
However, when high skilled killers verse high skilled swf groups, then you can consider yourself lucky killing one of them without ebony mori etc
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Because everything under 100% Killrate is too less for Killer Mains. It is unacceptable to lose a game, because the Killer is the Powerrole. And the Powerrole has to win everytime, regardless of how skilled the Survivors are.
And dont forget:
If you lose as Killer, the Survivors are too strong.
But if you win as Killer, it was only your skill.
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The statistic not only shows that killers are getting kills, it shows that they are getting more then 2 kills on average, which is in my opinion not how this game should be. It does not really matter which way the killer chose how he managed to get the kills, he was able to win the game more often then not.
In terms of statistic, everything above a 2K is a win for the killer, and everything above 2 Survivors escaping is a win for survivors. If you interpretate this different, this is only your interpretation then, but for the game itself (imagine for a second this would be an esports title) it does not really matter. And so are the numbers of hooks a killer get.
Like i said, this is not talking about bloodpoints or Emblem. That would be a different story (it is harder for killer to get emblem)
If this is the main complain, most killers are not complaining about unfair games, they are only complaining about unfair emblem system.
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Depip Squad is meaningless. I can make a 4 man SWF-group, called the Pip Squad and the Killers will win every game. Would this prove that SWFs and Survivors are way to weak? No, not at all.
You will not face those 4 super-optimal Survivors all the time. Sure, on rare occasions this will happen, but thats it.
And lets not forget that this was done in a whole different time of the game.
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If a killer gets three kills in the EGC after a genrush due to extremely altruistic survivors he still depips. Killrate means nothing, just a smart move from BHVR to get data for their weird balance decisions.
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Like i said, 3K before a single gen is done and last one escaping through hatch or just a NOED 3K at the end does not change anything, the outcome is the same. You might say to yourself that you actually won but thats not the truth.
So you think ballancing the Emblem system will solve it? The killer is always superior to the survivor above all ranks? (a rank 15 killer is better then the 4 rank 15 Survivors)
If thats the case, why would those killers come here and complain about it all the time? We assume they run vs survivors with the same Rank as they have.. in your book they must be better then them
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@xEa exactly on agreement right there on the emblem system, but i do disagree with the wins. Whilst true, lots of people have differing opinions on what constitutes a win, be it 2 kills, 3 kills, pips, 4 kills, escaping etc. The game is more black and white in what it classifies as a win because of the pip system.
Of course emotionally it matters too, i can have a close match, get 1 kill at the end but its after 9 hooks and 15 minutes of chasing, hitting and healing, and feel like its a hard fought victory.
All im saying is that this information is very very lacking to draw huge conclusions about whether a killer is overperforming or not. Plus i would disagree that circumstances of the kills not mattering either, if the only way a killer has a 50% kill rate is through sitting in there faces with a revved chainsaw, then that is pretty admissible for normal gameplay
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How is killrate meaningless?! Many people do base a win or a loss on the escapes. Do you think if killer averaged 1 kill, but the pipping system was changed to where you could still get pips, killers wouldn’t be complaining about the lack of deaths and would be happy with pips? Of course not. You’d want your kills too. Survivor is the same. Survivors sure as hell wouldn’t be happy if the game became a kill sim with constant 3-4Ks just because they could still pip while dying. It wouldn’t matter and they would be right. Killers want kills, survivors want escapes. How is it meaningless?
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I think i need to add: in my opinion. I base my wins on pips. Not kills or escapes.
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Many do because every other concideration of winning and loosing would not make any sense at the current state aka killers are getting to many kills. Thats also why the game will never reach a competetive level.
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I have both my killer and survivor at rank 1. I love seeing statistics but the kill rate stuff doesn't mean anything for red ranks.
If red ranks really were the best of the best then I'd agree this is way to high. However at the current moment players can get to red rank even if they are useless. If these stats were changed slightly and were based off killing survivors who had more than 1000+ hours then the average would be lower. I'm not arguing for that killer is weaker or survivor is weaker, I'm just saying these stats mean nothing for red ranks.
I'd love to see these stats again based off killing survivors who have over 1000 hours playtime.
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This data is useless. It only mentions kills, not the end of match result - e.g. Entity Displeased, Brutal/Ruthless/Merciless Killer.
Kills are not what ultimately decides how well a killer has done, and as previously mentioned by Peanits (I believe) - you should take these stats with a grain of salt.
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Fair enough, but I believe that is the minority opinion. So just to confirm, you would be perfectly happy with killrate being 25%, as long as the pipping system were changed to where you could still pip? So you would say the devs should maybe be looking at ways to make it tougher to get kills, but easier to pip?
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Please dont ever mention this redrank data again, japanese community manager confirmed that this means the game had a red rank killer.
In theory this means a rank 4 can go against rank 10 survivors and it will be counted as a red rank game which it is not at least not from my understanding.
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And why are we talking about red ranks at all? These are statistics overall. I just mentioned, that red ranks are even worse. Rank 10 Killer vs Rank 10 survivor is still the same, Killer gets more kills then he should.
The "japanese community mananger" said something nobody else did...
alright..
Also i call big bullshit on that one, as Red rank killer i run into red rank survivor all the time and so does every other Red ranked killer i know
thats what i agree aswell. Less kills, better way to pip.
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Funny story about hour shaming, I play all the time with friends on two separate Steam accounts. My spare account has about 70 hours clocked while my main account has about 800 (not counting ps4 or switch account times). I always let guests play on my main account while I, the experienced player, plays on my secondary. 9/10 times people will attack me as not knowing what I'm doing based on playtime alone when I use this account... suddenly when I switch back to my main account, people think I'm amazing again.
Also, my partner currently plays with me and, with his puny 40 some hours, already is better than most people I've encountered in ranks 20-5, definitely better than my last partner who had about 300 hours clocked in.
Playtime is meaningless.
Also, who would base balance for any game towards 1,000 + hour players only. That's the quickest way I've ever heard to absolutely destroy the playerbase of a game.
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Idc what the devs do as long as i get rewarded for my work as killer with pips.
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I just wanted to explain the stats aren't great, using red ranks as an example.
But I will admit at rank 10 the killer destroys survivors easily most of the time
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As red rank killer i get everything from red to purple to green as survivor i even get yellow killers.
You can call bs all you want, doesn't make it untrue. Just the fact that he has info we do not have access to. The data would look probably very diffrent if it was only for red ranks exclusive.
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well... according to you, that would actually even it up, if you get yellow/purple/green killer as Red rank survivor. Even it is true what this dev said, it does not matter at the end of the day since every role gets better or worse enemey from time to time.
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I feel like this data is kinda skewed. Getting lots of kills is great but that doesnt necessarily mean killers are amazing. Im rank 18 and usually get 3-4 kills but its because survivors go super obvious routes and try stuff they see on youtube. U think the game is balanced this way
Killer skill should be 100%
Survivors should have skill 80% 80% 80% 80%
The problem is survivors skill matching the killers or exceeding the killers. Because it is 4v1 or 1v1&1&1&1 The skill level of survivors should be able to work with the killer.
At least thats my 2 Cents
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Because you make some assumption? I dont know about you but when i find out that there are statistics which should represent red rank matches than I expect them to do exactly that and not only red rank killers, which are more likely to have easy matches against potatoes who are not able to obtain red rank survivor given that it is way easier to get to red ranks as survivor.
Also that is an utter speculation on your end to assume that every side gets the equal amount of bad matches.
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i did not make any speculation, i just reflected what you said: Both sides are getting opponents that are above or below their rank. You first said survivors are getting those, thats why my point is valid. In the next breath you contradict yourself with your experience as a killer saying the opposite.
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TOO
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@xEa except that matchmaking is screwed so killers and survivors aren't playing against like ranks. I play both sides and as a green or yellow rank constantly get paired with high purple and low brown ranks. That tends to scew the data. I agree I don't understand why everyone complains but it's not just killers. Survivors complain too much too. That is the biggest hindrance to the game at the moment. People on both sides spend so much time complaining about each other that we can't even get to what actually needs to be fixed like matchmaking and the ranking system
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I think the complaints are about equal. I just wish people would stop complaining about the same things over and over, especially the stuff the Developers have already addressed (camping, tunneling, t-bagging).
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Killers are not overpowered. They just have not found a way to properly separate skill level. There are survivors and you get groups of them that are almost impossible to catch. Then there are survivors at the same exact rank that you can catch blindfolded and these are the majority.
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I think that 2k being the perfect balance is the wrong way to look at this game. It's not a horror game if two are likely to escape every game. A traditional horror movie has 1 survivor and I think that's the balance. Id say killers are appropriately powerful and need absolutely zero nerfs outside of killer specific complaints
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Ranking up as survivor is way too easy I agree. Red ranks mean very little for survivors but a red ranks killer is probably a sweaty menace.
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Show me where skilled survivors are in this graph. Kill rate can mean anything. I know teams of 3 survivors who have no trouble doing 5 gens and getting out with AFK player and I know teams that cant do a single generator, because Ruin.
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- What are your thoughts about this? I don't think either role is overpowered. Depending on skill and circumstance one role may have an advantage over the other in certain situations, but I think the actual problem with balance is that it's very difficult to get 5 people of equal skill in the game.
- Are Killer overpowered? I don't think so. Player skill varies wildly between games. Although sometimes feels like as survivor you're completely overwhelmed, in my experience it's killers snowballing off of a teammate's silly mistake which ends up killing the whole team.
- Is this statistic somehow missinterpretated by me? Perhaps, or maybe not. I think you shouldn't look at the statistic in isolation and consider factors that are not visible through killrates alone.
- Do you agree that a ballanced game would be an average of 2 kills? Yes and no. To me a game where the killer hooks everyone at least 2 times and kills 2 is balanced. A game where the killer got less than 7-8 hooks during the which netted them 2 kills isn't balanced. Both scenarios end with a 2k, but in the 1st one the killer played really well and in the 2nd one they got outplayed, but still managed to kill 2. That's why i don't think just looking at kills is enough.
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Yes, 1 year ago.
Thx.
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it's 4k or nothing!!
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Here is my graph.
I dont wait for a match more than 30s, but I can get any rank survivors. So what was this game? High rank game, mid rank or low rank? Did this game count? Bubba now is top tier after this game? :D
Kill rate can mean anything.
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@Endstille is right.
forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/108370/fyi-stats-red-ranks-werent-really-red-rank-matches
The Red Rank stats were based strictly from data that only required killers to be red ranks - not survivors. Therefore many of the killers' opponents could have been Rank 10s, or if they were SWF, even Rank 20s.
It's like taking a data on 4-Man Red Rank SWF's escape rate against any ranked killer that matchmaking decides to put together - the escape rate is going to be abnormally high, but it doesn't amount to much meaning because only one side is restricted to being in red ranks.
The only thing that matters in balancing the game is taking statistical data on what happens when the game pits the potential of the best skilled survivor players (as the best 4-SWF genrushing team) against the potential of the best skilled killer players (regardless of what killer they play), and see if it is more or less than two kills on average - if it is less than two kills, buff the killers, if is more than two kills, nerf the killers. And then ultimately, balancing downwards, so that similarly skilled players end up facing each other. Nothing else really matters. Unfortunately, you can't even get a glimpse of how the game is balanced from the data we received, since the only requirement was for killers to be in the red rank at the beginning of the match.
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Kill counts doesn't really show anything. When i play survivor i prefer to die and get 2 stacks of wglf instead of leaving the game alive.
Also most of my games as killer, survivor prefer to get unhooks and give me more kills instead of just doing the gens and leave.
That doesn't mean survivors can't do the gens and leave the game asap and left killers with very low kill counts. They just prefer not to.
Also i just want to add that op sounds like someone who mostly plays survivor and struggle at it. I suggest practicing in the game instead of trying to convince people to get killers nerfed.
I would like op to play killer and chase someone like zubatlel(a streamer) and talk about killers killing so easy again...
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That data is cool and all but the real issue is the emblem system and you can't ignore it. If I get 2K I can still de-pip. If I get a 3K I can still run the risk of a safety pip. If that's a baseline then killers still get screwed because the system does not reflect that baseline.
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It’s definitely an emblem system issue, because many players do view kills/escapes as a win or loss. I would say the vast majority really. So you can’t have killer “winning” all the time because the pip system requires it. They need to tweak things to better balance the 2K as goal to where killer can pip more without the deaths. But...with that being said, I think killers would still complain then about not killing enough. Too many people just have that horror movie mindset of “this game is stupid if I can’t consistently kill at least 3 of them, I’m the monster killer/ power role”.
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"All Killers are bad and horrible but Survivors are angels that can't do bad"
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There is a huge skill gap between killer and survivor due to ranking system. Game is pretty balanced rn except for maps but those will always be broken.
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Stop trying to rank up. Simple
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A "2k average" is the ideal, but on the graph, having everyone at 50% would actually be a pretty bad point of balance.
We're measuring ONLY kills here, not how kills happen, and it's very important to think about how game results come around.
How often does a 0k actually happen? Pretty rarely. In most cases a killer can at least have someone on the hook, and anyone competent can camp/take down the unhooker repeatedly until everyone else is forced to leave. In most cases, a 0k game is bumped up to a 1k regardless of how hard the killer got stomped. That pushes your average up from what the games represent without the killer being strong or performing well.
On the other end you have 3 and 4ks. What's the difference? From a 3k it is incredibly easy for a killer to either; a. find the hatch before downing survivor number 3, usually securing survivor number 4, or b. slug survivor 3 until they find survivor 4. Both are very simple to do but push a huge amount of 3ks up to 4ks without much difficulty.
So when a graph shows "the average number of kills is 3," it doesn't necessarily reflect that killers win most games, or that the quality of their results is actually that high, just that the number of average kills does not accurately represent the quality or balance going into a match when numerical outcomes of matches don't represent the quality of that match or how well either side performed.
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So based off what you are saying, they need to make it impossible to get those cheap and campy kills. You can’t say a 3K average doesn’t matter when many players view kills and escapes as a measure of victory. Make camping a kill no longer possible then, and make all kills a measure of skill. That would be the way to go. Until that happens though, ( which it won’t, obviously), the 2K average is what we have for balance, and rightfully so.
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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. You don't deserve a free escape just because the gens are done, you still have to make it out. It just happens to be that that's when camping become optimal.
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So you're saying the game is balanced.
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Fairly balanced, yes. Which isn't to say there aren't factors on both sides that should be changed.
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