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Devs: you need to address the real reason people use Ruin
Comments
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The thing I find extremely funny is see people saying "ruin isn't good anyway, if you are a good killer you don't need it, it's a weak perk" if it's so weak and useless like people claim why bother nerfing it? "Oh ruin is used in so many games" so is adrenaline and dead hard but that's fine tho 👌
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No he does not, beat him while one of us was disconnected and he had to play against only 3.
Btw it is funny that trapper is considered low tier, if you actually look up the old data sheets from 2018 i think, you see that there is hag+trapper having the highest killrates (across all matches, dont remember the third tbh).
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No he does not, beat him while one of us was disconnected and he had to play against only 3.
Btw it is funny that trapper is considered low tier, if you actually look up the old data sheets from 2018 i think, you see that there is hag+trapper having the highest killrates (across all matches, dont remember the third tbh).
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I totally agree, however you cant balance your game around low rank survivors but high rank killers, a lot of the reasons given for nerfing ruin and changing doctor were based around low rank survivors and hiw hard it was for them. Again thats totally fine i dont wanna ruin it for them but to make major changes to something massive amount of the community uses or killers that are already underperforming because "its frustrating to play against" im just trying to see the logic behind it.
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So we should take kill stats at face value and reach the conclusion that the game is killer sided?
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Allow me to explain
they play for fun and rarely rank up or attempt to
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Given how fast the first 2 gens get done even with it up, about 60 seconds usually- they should make it not light up until 2 gens are done.
Boom, you now have the perfect updated ruin that is fair for both sides, if it is too strong later on you can address it's values or too weak again address it's values, but the main problems on the survivor side AND killer side would be fixed then.
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A good Billy rarely but a bad one that misses half his chansaws? Quite Often. The same can be said for most other players what are good with any killer. I don't see them camping as much.
Take the Spirit. Why do so many using a strong killer instantly come back to the hook? What is it that makes some what to instantly 4k in as little time as possible? As I said its a mindset which is extremely hard to change.
That is becasue they don't want to increase pressing m1 and they instead concentrated on chase times. Hence the pallet and window changes along with time changes. It seems they would rather concentrate on good play rather than just making it easier for the masses to do well without learning to run certain spots better.
Killers can end the game in under 3m its been shown many times. What that comes down too is a difference between good and bad players but for some reason being able to be the better player can and should apply to only one side it seems.
If you wish to argue a point please be better informed on what does happen in the game. 4m games are not the norm at red ranks this has already been debunked. What is the norm though is some do lose badly but may be just maybe that's probably once they lose the one perk which has them where they shouldn't be while others that don't know how to apply more pressure.
Yet most meta perks are called crutches on both sides. What is a crutch of course depends on what side they play and why it needs to be looked at from both standpoint. When a perk helps someone get to stage they shouldn't is that perk helping or carrying? That is the question you need to ask about certain ones and why a change is needed.
I'm all for a toolbox change. I have posted a few times recently that I think they should be made more to combat slow down effects and a hard cap on max gen speed needs to be set so perks and these items can't stack too much and make them go stupidly fast.
Two wrongs don't make a right and being objective means we should be looking at both aspects and never assume one is ok with the other being too strong.
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Not at all, just pointing it out that he is not super weak unlike other killers.
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Your analysis lacks nuance.
His stats are like that because stats mean nothing at the level Otz and other streamers play. Most of the playerbase is not that good at the game, even at red ranks.
You can't argue that and then disagree that Freddy is the best killer in the game, for example, which he very clearly isn't,
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Ruin didn't help people get to a stage they shouldn't be at. It was used to counter the underlying problem that the devs are failing to address. Most killers would rather not use ruin, as it is often just a wasted perk slot, but it was their only option to try and balance that underlying problem.
Two wrongs don't make a right? Sure, not that I would consider using ruin wrong. The problem is that the devs are only "fixing" one side. If there are two wrongs, then they should fix both, wouldn't you say? Not only did they nerf ruin, but they didn't remove it's obvious drawback of being so vulnerable to being completely removed from the match. It was a poorly thought out design decision..
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I just pointed out he is not as good and also exaggerates from time to time but ok. Also Trapper has potential other killers do not have.
The question than is why you even get caught by the bad one in the first place but also there he just wants to get at least one kill. The other simply leaves because he knows there is still time most will however try to get another stack of bbq.
Why do strong killers return? Well as I said, it is yet the most effective way for them to apply pressure and get the snowball going.
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If that is the case then one should not need it at all like the many others that never use it. I would argue without it many probably wouldnt make it to the rank they are at. No matter what changes to the game have been made Ruin has always been meta due to its potential to make games slower. Its because of this some will always rely too heavily on it. A test to see where some would end up without it if reset back to rank 20 would be interesting to say the least.
I never said using Ruin was wrong. I said allowing two mechaincs which are wrong shouldnt be accepted. I did say in the post you quted toolboxes need looked at. Quote from it below.
"I have posted a few times recently that I think they should be made more to combat slow down effects and a hard cap on max gen speed needs to be set so perks and these items can't stack too much and make them go stupidly fast."
Personally I dont like the change as I have said. I am all for a change to Ruin as I do feel it does artificially inflate someone's capability. The change though well quite frankly i find the perk useless now. It does nothing for the killer if they are in a chase and makes players stay on gens to finish them instead of saving.
Hooking someone and being in a chase should be applying pressure to at least 3 survivors as 1 should want to go for the save. This change seems to only now apply that pressure to 2 as they simply wont leave the gen to save for the regression aspect. I dont find any there to be urgency for survivors to remove Ruin like other perks. its not rewarding enough for the risk to use it.
I think it could do with a change but I really dont beleive this is the one.
I was speaking in general regarding camping. It is of course hard for them to catch a good player but they will eventually. Bad billy's of course are not just exclusive to low ranks. Ive seen many with over 1k hours who I do well with many other killers they play.
That just it. even with the strongest player some do it no matter how many gens are left. i can understand it if one is not fing well but to do it within the first minute of a match? yes this happens a lot. They could easily apply pressure by chasing another off a gens but they instead choose to go back to the hook with 5 gens and Ruin up.
That is the thing both sides can do things which will end the game too quickly if thats how they set out too play and why the devs want to promote doing more for more enaging matches on both sides.
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A ranking system that currently doesn’t even work
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Then there is an overall problem with the ranking system, especially for survivors. The Skillgap between a bad rank 1 and a really good rank 1 is gigantic!
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You mean the 80% in red rank?lol
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Typical, only commenting on one off subject comment instead of the post overall
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That is 20% who dont need it so thats 1 in 5 killers, so why is it always needed? dont you think it seems strange that 1 in 5 killers dont?
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By your logic ruin also didn't need a change since good survivors can hit skillchecks...
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I think you missed my point. We'll stick with the "two wrongs don't make a right" concept. The problem is that they are only attempting to fix one of them, rather than coming up with a plan to fix both and implementing them together. Using a crutch when you have a broken leg is perfectly acceptable. Ruin would only be too powerful if the other problems were fixed, but they aren't even being acknowledged by the devs.
As you say, this was a bad design change, but it is made even worse by not addressing the underlying problem that led to it.
I would also say that a lot of survivors don't deserve their ranks either, but due to the current play mechanics, they are ranked much higher than they should be. It's not just a killer thing.
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Then we also give feedback to ask for a toolbox change. Which is what I have been doing even before this change was announced.
It's rare they make changes together as they tend to like to see the impact of one to see how much the other needs tweaked. I wouldn't be surprised if they have toolboxes in their sights.
I would agree lots of survivors don't. They did make it harder but then made it easier again as the killer queues were an issue do to not enough ranking up. With the gatekeeper emblem changes I think will see what happens and then they may well do it again if this impacts matchmaking too much.
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Meta perks are meta for a reason. Not becasue they fix issues but they make players feel stronger or better than they may be.
It's a common issue with lots of PvP games and why anything meta needs eventually looked at as to why its used and this is what has been happening over the last year.
That's not entirely true; yeah, all meta perks make you stronger, but not everything that makes you stronger increases your skill artificially. Plus, the game has objectives issues, like maps that are so big that you simply can't reach the furthest generator before it being repaired, if survivors are on it. Ruin addressed this issue.
In fact, I don't care at all if Ruin is cleansed in the first 20-30 seconds of the game - I just need to find someone before one generator is completed, that's it.
Usually in PvP games if a perk / a unit / an ability is overused they ask themselves two basic questions:
- why our players are using it?
- is it giving an unfair advantage over other players?
Take a fighting game: if a character is used a lot, but in tournaments players who win are not using it, the answer is that the character is more fun or easier to use than others, but it's not overly strong. The solution would be to buff other under used (and under performing) characters, not to nerf the culprit - in fact it could very well be the case that it should be buffed as well, while trying to increase its learning curve as well.
Instead, if that character is winning a lot of tournaments, no matter the player, then the problem is that there's something wrong on its balance. In this case a nerf could be needed.
Now think about a RTS game like StarCraft - once a certain opening or build composition becomes meta, they will probably tinker some numbers or even add / delete certain abilities. Their goal, though, is not to discourage this or that play style, the goal is to facilitate new builds/tactics which can be equally viable.
What DbD devs have done is entirely different though; they saw an overused perk, they disregarded the reason why that's used (because I refuse to believe they don't understand Ruin is used for the early game, to delay the first 1-2 generators, and there's that), and they simply concentrated on why it does work. No compensation for the change, no analysis on killer frustration when Ruin was insta cleansed in the first place, nothing. Well, let's be more precise, they probably did think about this, but they obviously decided that any other change to the early game will come eventually.
There's no design plan there, other than high ranks players be unpaid beta testers.
So yeah, what should killers do if they want to delay the onset of the mid to late game? Run Corrupt Intervention? What then, 80% of high ranks matches will just have immersed survivors for 2 minutes? That seems not frustrating at all :)!
I could continue, but I think you can get the point.
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My dude I didn't say it's "always " needed. High and high med definitely not. However if your playing a low or slow killer on couple maps that are very large its almost a must. If they would address those maps first. There probably wouldn't have been sooo much hate. Also from what I've seen with new ruin to make it some what affective you need surveillance. If you are not on a average size map.imo. Saying 20% dont. Really it is not really a valid point because the 20% isn't saying who there using, what the load out is ect..that is just saying 20% of all matches in red its not used. The 1 in 5 doesn't mean they don't on every killer that's ridiculous. I'm sure there are people that dont on any that's cool. As far as my comment 80% of all matches not killers in red. I was just poking the bear a bit. Take a breath an chill...its a game.
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plus for all we know those 20% of games without Ruin could easily be Nurse / Spirit / Billy / Iri Head huntress / whatever killer with crutch add-ons / ...4 survivors escaping :P
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Thank you. That's my point.
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I'm not saying it's true for all but it is for some.
We never compare meta in one game to another much like balancing as they are all different. The examples you chose though simply state why meta's are changed and why it's needed if theyvare too strong.
Why the devs did this we don't actually know. It's speculation to think its just becasue it was used by 80%. I would be there are many reasons for the change like why it is being used as much, the impact on the games itself, how long it lasts and how long gens took etc.
To say there is no design plan is not true. Every change so far has been to try and make something less obnoxious along with balancing. It's unfortunate there is one example of Legion who has been in the cross fire with some needed changes due to new perks effecting them the most.
There is surge, surveillance, pgtw, corrupt. There are tracking and chase perks. We adapt and stop relying on just one thing to do the job for us and try to do better without it. We learn better how to chase and mind game, take the time to learn how to run tiles. There are many things good player do over bad one but what better ones do is see what they did wrong.
Which is what they have said they are doing. Maybe ruin was making this harder to see the whole picture.
Saying 80% doesn't matter for the exact same reasons you mentioned. Since only a set amount of killers are said to be viable and only used at high ranks it means it was then primarily used in theory on the ones who don't need it at all.
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he slugs, ALOT and some games no matter how well he does he still loses
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Knowing when to slug is one of the marks of a good player in this game. If you don't then that's on you.
And no matter how good you are you should still lose some games lol. That's how videogames work.
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I don't know if you read the Dev Blog post, but what I'm saying is not a mere speculation, it's exactly what they stated:
We also looked carefully to see how it functions as part of a Killer's loadout. Beyond the obvious desire to slow down generator repair, Hex: Ruin functions as one of the very few perks effective as slowing generator repair in the first couple of minutes of the Trial. This is important to Killers' rankings because the Gatekeeper Emblem highly rewards keeping as many of the 7 generators incomplete as they can for as long as possible.
In other words, that's their answer to the question Why are players using it.
And you know what? That's correct! I don't care if someone somewhere uses Ruin for other reasons: this is the real and most useful reason to use it.
The problem is that they apparently think that the reason why we want to slow the early game is for the Gatekeeper Emblem point system, which is like saying that people hate mosquitos because they don't like the smell of anti-mosquitos sprays. But again, I'm sure that they know why we want to slow the early game, it's just that they still haven't come up with an elegant solution to that.
Let them test it out, we'll think about it. That's their approach, right now.
On another note, all the perks that you mentioned, aside for Corrupt (which I already addressed anyway), have nothing to do with the early game, and I already said that I don't really care if Ruin gets cleansed in 20-30 seconds, I just need to at least see a survivor before the first generator pops, so I don't really understand what is your point in saying that we'll, basically, git gud at chasing without Ruin now. Honest question: do you play killer?
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I am in this paragraph and I don’t like it.
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So to wrap this up:
People: complain about unecessary ruin nerf
Other People: "it's so they can fix gen speeds"
me: "like they made it so enduring doesn`t affect ds anymore so they could reduce stun time of ds which they didnt do?"
Peanits: "CAN´T WIN WITHOUT RUIN? GG YOU WERENT SUPPOSED TO BE IN RED RANKS ANYWAY LOLZ!!!!!!!"
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yes I know that but over sluggin means no pipping, less hooks for everyone etc. with ruin I liked to play nice like, no tunneling or camping. low slugging and I try to 3 hook everyone. now I wont be doing that after the ruin nerf, similar to what otz does
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Rank 2 instead of 1? It's still too easy to rank.
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If killers can afford to "play nice" and still win then there's a problem
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It seems the devs are playing in a bubble where everything is fine, because I can't find any other reason you'll think the ranking system is working as intended. But this comment right here proves the connection between devs and community, ignoring the post itself to focus on a meaningless comment.
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Since you are not a survivor. The devs will not listen to you and discard your post. Why? They just are survivor bias and all rank 18 survivors is why.
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For me as person the game will be to fast without ruin. So i think i will play more survivor games and some other killers will do the same. The waiting period for matches will last longer...
Hope the tunnel to destroy workpower will not be so much seen, even with DS.
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I just can’t accept the stated grounds for the nerf of the ruin.
1) new player suffered from ruin by can’t hit the skill check - but the statistic stating that 80% of RED RANK killers use it, with 45% overall. Is it saying that the NEW PLAYER will encounter red rank killer? Or you want the new player instantly gen rush to red rank?
2) stating that the perk benefits a lot at low / little risk to killer - Have you seen a ruin being cleanse within a minute? It is really high risk
Dev, please revisit the ruin, and you will know the change is NOT needed and don’t find an excuse for yourself to make the game UNBALANCED!
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If the fun way to play (Fun for the Killer AND the Survivors) is the wrong way to play, there's a problem.
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so you want the way to win be, tunnel, slug, camp all hooks?
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I wish you had this attitude toward survivors when playing against ruin. They had two options: 1) git gud and hit great skill checks 2) find a very easy totem which most of time is near a gen
If they did neither of those options, they derank where they are more comfortable.
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My response was sue to you bstating it was due to 80% using it. I also said there are many reasons.
What they wrote like most cases will be a reason but not how they came to the reason. Never take things at face value. What it implies is it was working too well. It all depends on how one wishes to see it.
They also never said people cared about the gatekeeper emblem again its what you wish to see. How it reads for myself is it was working too well for it ergo making it too easy to get.
I never said they do affect early game. They are slowdown perks and its seems clear the devs dedided they dont want something to possibly stall the game for too long without at least doing something for it to happen.
If you truly only need to find someone within 20-30s I don't see how ruin is important. It's very easy to find players at red ranks within that time frame as most always run about like headless chickens.
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If you can play nice and win it means it's too easy to win playing like a dickhead.
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That is the point but does it really do that if I’m a rank 7 killer I shouldn’t be going against 4 rank 1 survivors I shouldn’t have to go down to green ranks just to play casually
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If the game's mechanics actively encourage you to play like a dickhead, there's a problem.
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Im almost exclusively a survivor main, and I’ve always said that ruin should be part of a killers base kit. It should be standard. What is the point of even having totems in the game if they aren’t really a big part? DBD needs more to spice it up, and make it less of a generator simulator. As a fix, the devs could do this to keep generators from flying by, but also being fair to the worse players.
Red ranks : Ruin lvl 3 is part of a killers base kit
Purple : Ruin lvl 2 is base kit
Green : Ruin Lvl 1 is base kit
Yellow and Grays it is not base kit.
this game just needs people that know how to balance the game, make perks and killers more viable to play, and just improve the fun for all different skill levels.
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What they wrote like most cases will be a reason but not how they came to the reason. Never take things at face value. What it implies is it was working too well. It all depends on how one wishes to see it.
They also never said people cared about the gatekeeper emblem again its what you wish to see. How it reads for myself is it was working too well for it ergo making it too easy to get.
First: the post says what are the reasons for the change. Of course they have debated about other things, but thinking that there is some esoteric and imponderable, but still very relevant, thought behind Ruin change other than (1) it sucked for noobs, (2) it was a brainless mainstay of every high rank build, (3) inconsistency of skill checks is naive at best, malicious at worst. If Devs say that this was their reasoning, I believe them, I don't do second guessing on what they have (not) said.
Second: you are right, they didn't explicitly said that players care about the Gatekeeper Emblem, but that's not what I said either. In fact, I said that their actions go in that direction (that is: change Gatekeeper Emblem system as if that is what needs to be addressed after Ruin is gone - if players don't care about emblems, then why the change? I'm asking you.), but I seriously doubt that they don't know what we really do care about (that is: slow the Early game). In fact they stated it themselves, but this (the early game gen rush) has not been addressed, and that's why we are all upset.
I never said they do affect early game. They are slowdown perks and its seems clear the devs dedided they dont want something to possibly stall the game for too long without at least doing something for it to happen.
It is clear, I agree with you. In fact, I'm not against Ruin changes per se.
Hell, I hate using Ruin!
I'm against the change without addressing early game gen rushing at high ranks at the same time. I know, you say that they do things one step at a time, and I'm telling you this is infuriating, because (1) we don't know if this step will ever happen and (2) even if it happens, we don't know in which time frame. Freddy, Legion, Dedicated Server, DC bans, sound bugs, humongous maps should have taught us something by now, don't you agree?
If you truly only need to find someone within 20-30s I don't see how ruin is important. It's very easy to find players at red ranks within that time frame as most always run about like headless chickens.
Again I'm asking you, and that's not a provocative question in any way: do you play as killer? Competent swf teams don't run about like headless chickens, if they do that they have a purpose (for example, the chicken is in fact a single scout for Ruin and for the killer, good at looping, that will get you out of the way while communicating to the others what to do). You can't chase those scouts, or you will simply lose. You have to find someone that is doing (better: is going to do) something useful objective wise, and not get distracted. Of course there are high ranks teams which just mess around, but those were not the problem anyway - Ruin was not used for them in the first place.
You talk about high ranks like if they were in fact the ones easier to beat, which I don't know, maybe your region is easier to play on :P?
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By that logic if you left Ruin as is wouldn’t players who didn’t learn to hit checks derank to a more appropriate rank?
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I’m shocked. Do the devs even play at red ranks? From what I’ve seen when they stream, they sit at yellow and green. How can you balance the game for lower ranks and not think about what it does to those playing at high ranks. If ruin was changed to a normal perk and not a hex perk I wouldn’t be as mad but the fact you expect it to be a “strong” late game perk, yet it is broken within the first 60 seconds of the majority of matches. The new ruin does work quite nicely with surveillance, or are you going to change how that works too. Because it’s not fun for survivors. Just like you did with legion and nemesis.
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Many posts state reasons as being sime info as when it comes to a stream they elaborate on those. A post regarding a chnge is some info for ua to ponder and once they do elaborate it always becomes more clear. Nothing is quite as simple as its written as its far more beneficial for them to talk about it when the time comes. I'm sure they take a lot of time to deliberate regarding any changed. It why they take so long after all. If you have ever watched a dev stream this would be clear as it happens with most changes.
The gatekeeper emblem well it may not be important to some but it seems it is to them. Overall the gatekeeper was discussed as it was directly affected by ruin. That is of course the need to state something regarding what they will change on it as without ruin it won't work as effectively as it does now. What it says to me is it seems possible it was originally designed with ruin in mind.
Changes always take time. There have been numerous ones done without fixing something on the other side. Fixing an issue doesn't always reflect the whole plan and of course some need fixed before the impact can be seen so other changes can come into play. The next step imo should be survivor speed up items and perks. These I have expressed many times now imo need a hard cap so they don't stack and are mainly used to help with slowdown effects in the game.
I would ask the same to yourself? Competent swf run about constantly. They hardly walk unless it's beneficial as it wastes time. I wasn't referring to them being bad players but they run about bobbing there heads back and forth. Dont tsake it too literally as I am saying they are bad. They just dont care about being seen. Good players want to be chased as they are confident. It also enables the rest to do what is needed even more so in an swf.
High ranks are never easy and they shouldn't be. They take a greatvdegree of skill and knowledge as killer. What we shouldn't have is anyone in those ranks and why both sides need to be better seperated. I feel this may stave the complaints more as too many it seems feel it should be a given that they can and will be able to compete within those ranks.
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