By BHVR's own data, Spirit and even Nurse were not over performing.
According to the data they collected from April 1st to April 7th, (a small margin yes, but this is all we have to go by besides anecdotal evidence) Spirit and Nurse were not the highest ranking killers when it came to kill rate.
Hag, Billy, and Trapper all ranked higher than both of them, all three having over 60% kill rate in both PC and Console, while Nurse actually had one of the lowest kill rates on consoles.
If the goal is 50/50 kill rate, two die two escape, then why is it acceptable these three go over that ratio, but Nurse and Spirit suffer consequences for staying within that range?
My answer? I don't have one. Only a suggestion. Collect more data for the public. Give us the numbers.
Comments
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Nurse should have been just an add-on change i agree for the most part. On pc nurse can just destroy almost anyone if the person is good enough with her.
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That data is over 7 months old. Spirit may not have become an issue until recently. And Nurse changes were not made on the basis of her killrate.
Also, they said in the latest stream that they were thinking of doing another one of those statistical posts soon, so we have that to look forward to.
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I would love to see how the community reacts if the devs release an update: "The Trapper will be reworked due to him overperforming."
It would be nice to see some more current stats of the killers like who has the highest/lowest kill rate, who has the longest/fastest games and the most important of all, who has the highest DC rate.
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dont they dare to nerf trapper
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That is true, I even mentioned that the data was old. But Spirit has recieved no changes since then. That's honestly why I wanna see the devs do more statistics.
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The Data was not sorted by Rank. Thats why someone like Trapper had such a high Killrate, because brown Ranks have many Trappers and those are performing quite well (because Killer is really strong in low Ranks).
On high Ranks, obviously, Trapper will not have such a high Kill Rate, but Killers like Spirit or Nurse will (at least on PC, in regards to Nurse). Also, a difference can be made between Console and PC - with Nurse it is kinda obvious. But even with Spirit, most likely (at least Low Rank players) will not play DBD with a Headphone. Of course, at Red Ranks, Survivors and Killers will most likely use Headphones, but on lower Ranks... doubt it.
So yeah, those statistics need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Funny thing btw.: When it comes to Survivors, everything should be balanced around Red Ranks. But when it comes to Killer...Nope, not acceptable.
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Trapper officially becomes Hunter- WAPOW!
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I wish they took the time to give us monthly updates. Just so the community can stop pecking at each other like vultures trying to prove everyone they're right.
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It's an assymetrcial game if it's being balanced 50/50 that's not how you do it. I went in this game expecting it would be scary as survivors and hard and challenging to escape what reality is it's just a ridiculously easy ride for survivors with not much skill required to escape and with killer is so much management and stress it basically switched around. Obviously it never gonna change so the only way to win is to play the strongest killer which it seems to be spirit atm. But apparently there are"changes" coming to her so that might end soon...
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Promote this person they need a fancy crown or chair this is the most truth I've heard in while I appreciate it!
??
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first. yes, those stats are old and Spirit has had no changes since then (that I'm aware of), but there have been a number of survivor changes which likely increased her kill ratio.
second, I whole-heartedly agree that the devs should make more of an effort to provide the community with more reliable updates and statistics to help us see where's they're coming from.
and third, this isn't a killer vs survivor competition thread, please quit whining about the imaginary challenges killers face... survivor and killer both have their pros and cons, killer isn't some poor abused little creature... go play f13 jason if you want to play the victim game.
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All I see happening is...
-> Nerf strong killers
-> Finally buff solo survivors
-> Nerfed killers now too weak
-> Two years later, they take another look at the killers they over-nerfed
Or it's possible they'll never buff solo survivors, which is going to be the death of this game because killers will constantly feel too weak against decent SWF groups and solo survivors will feel horribly oppressed by decent killers. But hey, we'll all save a lot of money not buying future DLC, so at least there's a bright side for us.
Sorry. I've watched Battlefront II get destroyed by constant nerfs by its devs. It's a horrible cycle and really depressing to witness. It was enjoyable to play for a while, but I long ago quit and moved on. I'll play what's fun.
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no i imagine someone getting trapped in a Beartrap and Trapper just puling out a huge Sniper Rifle, sniping the poor dude down xD
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1. I actually do wonder what survivor changes were made. Was this before or after DS changes? I'm pretty sure it was before Ash.
2. We really do need information so that proper discussion can be had. Again, we inly really have anecdotal evidence to go after.
3. Most certainly not, and anyone who tried to make it such I politely ask to STFU. Hell, this isn't even a full defense of Spirit and Nurse, because I used old data. If the data now justifies the changes, do be it. If anything, this post is more about wanting more information and stats from the devs. Hopefully they will deliver.
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While I think giving statistics more often and with more detail would be nice, it would also be used to weaponize stats into nerfing something that may not need nerfs. Stats alone don't always mean that specific thing needs a nerf. If for example everyone who brought a mori got a 4k, that would obviously be a needed nerf. But if for example, every survivor who brought a key and completed all generators got a 4 escape, it wouldn't need nerfing because they literally did all of the generators. The only thing they would not have done was opened the doors, in which case if they did also open the doors, that would mean the key did nothing for them.
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Do you really think all the data the devs use to base their decisions on is from one week many months ago when they collected some (sloppy) info the community asked?
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Those stats are all ranks overall.
Currently, spirit has 3 kills or possibly even more per game on average according to the devs. I don't know which ranks are these stats from though.
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Spirit may became an "issue", because survivors weaponized dcs to get her nerfed. In a game where you have to get four people to not blackpip, the spirit should't get nerfed.
Nurse changes were made, to make her more fun to play and vs. Kind of. Okay she is extremely unfun to play and super easy to vs now without two specific addons. Pretty good job so far.
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For less than a week.
Seven months ago.
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Thats the problem when they come up with "balance" updates.. they end nerfing killers for rank 15+ survivors, and don't take into account red ranks. They always do that.. and thats why i personally don't like every "balance" update they announce because it's never a slight change, it's always the same story that repeats.
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Hopefully they will release some red ranks only stats. Changes should be made according to those.
If spirit is still overperforming in red rank only stats, I can already see people still denying it and I find that quite funny tbh.
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BHVR- Padded teeth add-on is now basekit. We found out through our data that survivors do not like getting caught in traps and this ruined the fun for one side. We also found that when traps were placed in good spots chases were ending too quickly and this isn't the sort of balance we want. We will be monitoring the situation and slightly *cough excessively* changing Trappers power.
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The data is to old in regarding to spirit. Spirit players improvement more and more to the point when it came unbearable to verse. Nurse on the other hand is quite accurate, she was released long time ago.
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Yea I'd love to see this data as well. The mere fact she wasn't in the top 3 when they released that data in April is fishy to me. Like no way she just jumped higher than those killers recently for it to be a noticeable problem. It doesn't make sense.
And if she IS over performing by how much compared to the next killer? If it's marginal then maybe Spirit doesn't need to be changed.
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Right, old data but what has changed about Spirit since then? Multiple popular streamers starting to complain about her being unfair.
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You know what i want?
That just for dbd.
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This is just a theory, but i think spirit is overperforming due to the nurse nerf.
I think it mightve been a common reaction, even for good killers to (temporariliy) ditch nurse for the next best killer. The influx of people playing her combined with the all to common lack of interest in adaption of sirvivors then lead to her "overperformance"
Many of you mightve already heard of this, bits its a vicious loop of nerfing the top, the players going for the next best option and repeat... sigh
Its not the first but already the second round.
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This combined with the fact that if Spirit was less common before and survivors just didn't have the experience to beat her, now she's more common and it's hard to adapt that quickly.
Honestly if she is actually over performing I would say it's both these issues. Maybe we should wait another 2 months for things to level out.
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Console games arent important to core issues, cause this game is adjusted for PC. You cannot compare those two, and moreover you cannot add them to a summed up conclusion. Consoles are just fanservice.
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Well, it's an interesting question. I'm sure the streamers helped, but my personal theory is that people figured out how to play her to her full potential. She was always that good, it's just that more people have now mastered her playstyle.
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Those stats did not consider rank. If you took a look at the Nurse before at all ranks, she was the weakest killer by a large margin- something I think we can all agree was not the case. Meanwhile, if you were to check her stats in red ranks on PC, you'd see that she would average more than three kills per match. This is why we don't balance based on data alone, and also why we urge you not to draw conclusions from those stats.
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What were those changes?
MoM got nerfed? It didnt affect her in the first place, pretty sure. And this change would have affected everyone.
Tougher fast vault requirements? You dont loop a Spirit. An irrelevant change.
Dedicated Servers? Grabs are buggier than ever, first off. Secondly, she suffers a small delay sometimes while starting to phase. All this works against her.
Maps? The only new maps were Badham and Hawkins. Badham isnt a particularly favourable map for Spirit (not awful either). Indoor maps are a coin toss. She is easier to detect and juke, but she also is more likely to pull of nice plays.
There were no Survivor changes that affected her.
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Why doesn't it seem to work like that the other way around?
You guys often say you're going to monitor stats and keep an eye out when people say something is too weak like Legion & Bubba.
Why not buff them without overall data saying it needs it like Nurse changes?
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Do you guys exclude matches that have any dc's in them when calculating the stats along with suicides on hook (if you can detect them)?
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We can, but again, the stats aren't everything. They might show us where to look, they don't show us what specifically is wrong.
To give an example, say you're trying to sell your house and you get it appraised. They tell you it's not worth a lot. Do you just go in and start fixing stuff and redecorating hoping that the value goes up, or do you figure out why it's not worth much and try to make that specific thing better?
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I think nurse had such high kill rate is because of her add-ons, not her base kit. So why do you decide to touch her base kit? FYI, majority of people agree that she only needed add-ons change
Revert her base kit change, but keep the add-ons, then we can do the statistic and analysis to see whether her kill rate is still too high or normal.
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Agreed!
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Yeah, I understand that. I'm just asking because many people here don't believe these stats because they think dc's are included in them.
Also, are you guys going to release some stats any time soon like you did before?
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I hope they read it and think about it..
otherwise it's another case like legion.. every feedback about legion is basically ignored..
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How can i upvote a commend more than once? :)
Jokes aside, it's great to know that she is not ignored.
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Peanits, I believe your data at red ranks is polluted and is not reliable because you have a lot of experienced nurses decimating survivors that make their way to red ranks for the 1st time. Also, why look at it strictly from a killer perspective? What about highly skilled survivors versing average killers (nurses for example)? An average nurse would in no way win against a good survivor team, even before the nerfs. The nerf was unfair.
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I second this @Peanits please
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Skill isn't something you can filter for, the closest you can get is rank. When we're talking about red ranks, you'll have a mix of high skilled and average players, yes. This goes both ways though. You'll have some survivors that are great, you'll have others that make you wonder how they're even there. Likewise, you'll have some killers that are fantastic, and you'll have others that run four slowdown perks on the best killers and don't manage to get a hook until two or three generators go off. There's a bit of it on both sides and it all averages out.
Even so, it's not the be-all end-all. Again, the stats are not everything. We do our research.
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Would you ever consider make a public dynamic page with some statistics available for everyone?
For example, a kill ratio for every killer plotted against rank (for every platform of course), pie charts with the most used perks, number of totem cleansed per game, average DC per game...
Or, if not this dynamic, at least uploading those data at the end of every update cycle - in other words, when a new chapter / mid-chapter comes, we get the statistics for the timeframe of the past update?
EDIT: apparently you already answered (depends on how much the team is busy) - I don't know how you collect data, but maybe you could automate the process, so that you do this once and that's it :P?
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I'd like to see that some day, even if it does have to be done manually through a few infographics. We would need a good set of data that people would want to see every three months or so if that were to happen, though. If there's enough support for that, I'll run it by the team and see what we can do.
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Actually, I saw a number of people complaining about base kit nurse. Even without omegablink, she was extremely mobile and extremely deadly in the hands of someone who mastered her. There were a number of guides advising you not to use her add-ons at all, because it would mess with your muscle memory.
I don't see anything wrong with the changes they made to her base kit. She still is what she was, a fast and deadly killer with the potential to shut down loops almost immediately.
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Based on addons or base kit.
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