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Ridiculous Unwritten Rules of DBD
Comments
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Once again of course it is more likely to get a hate mail from survivor since there are 4 players, but you were referring to the level of toxicity however the LEVEL of toxicity is same on both sides. This doesn't mean killer players are generally nicer when it comes toxicity.
Also if you want me to react to what @FrenziedRoach wrote, well nothing really relates to what I said, because this is an asymmetrical game where you can't compare survivor to killer, so even if you were the best player in the world there are still things you can't prevent and are just simply unfun. So toxic behavior is still not justified for either side and saying "well umm just play better" is a weak excuse and doesn't solve the core issue. We're talking about actual hate-mail, harassment and mechanics in-game that promote such behavior, not losing because you played poorly.
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then it's on the survivors to discourage the behavior by playing better by either not feeding the camper or being better at protecting their unhooks.
We are given the tools within the game to deal with anything people throw at us to "bully" us. Unlike real life, within the confines of the game we have the means to fight back or not reward the behavior. It's on you the player to implement this.
We as players need to stop perceiving intentions behind how a person plays, I believe that is a lot of the problem
I mean, I could take that sabo team I dealt with last week and assume they were trying to bully me by denying me event points, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt and just assumed they were all on the same ritual and destroyed them using my basement hooks instead.
Could be just friends playing around
could be people who just don't another way to play
could be somebody just doing one of the many tome objectives they have to do.
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I don't think I agree. The victim shouldn't be to blamed for bring bully.
In real life we do have a means to handle and fight back against bullying, it by coming together and demonstrating that bully behavior will and should not be tolerated.
The community can definitely come together and say that ,not tunneling and camping, but tunneling and camping with the clear intent to do harm and be toxic to another player is bad and should not be tolerate.
Thr victims should not have to do anything in order to appease the bully but the bully should understand and realize that behavior is not right.
I can agree though that maybe we need to stop perceiving intentions behind a players playstyle, but if the intent is clear then we should call it out.
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You have your opinion on how to define tunneling and what kinds of tunneling there are. I have mine. Neighter your opinion nor mine is wrong, they are just opininons.
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@JFF "Once again of course it is more likely to get a hate mail from survivor since there are 4 players, but you were referring to the level of toxicity however the LEVEL of toxicity is same on both sides. This doesn't mean killer players are generally nicer when it comes toxicity."
I already thought i explained this but lets go over it again. Say there is X amount of toxic players in the community regardless of which role they play. Out of 5 players in the trial 4 is survivor and 1 is killer. So one of the 4 survivors being toxic is 4 times more likely yes? I was trying to say this when i said "i get hate mail more than 4 times over" is that toxicity levels i see from survivors cannot be explained by their higher numbers. That exactly means that average killer is less toxic than average survivor. At least depending on my and all of my friends -who played the game for thousands of hours- and %80 of people who actually played killer in red ranks experiences. Don't even comment on this if you don't have that much experience in the game. Because most of this community knows this for a fact.
What i wanted you to get from FrenziedRoach's comment wasn't the "well uhmm just play better" execuse. It was that i am only responsible for my fun as a player. Not even a single multiplayer game -asymmetric or not- loads the responsibility of the fun had to a single player. DBD doesn't do that either, it is the community that is delusional. Survivors act like camping and tunneling are not a part of the game that was intended during the game design. I am not saying that survivors must be happy for getting face camped. I also think it can get frustrating. But they shouldn't act like killer is doing something they are not entitled to and lash out like i see in every 2-3 games in the endgame chat. That is not in anyway justified and way more toxic than whatever done in the game. Endgame chat is the most toxic part of this game by far. And those "unwritten rules" i was talking about? They cause survivors to think "Oh killer isnt supposed to do that what a trash, #########,bastard bla bla bla." Now THAT is toxic. Since this kind of perception of the game people have can't be undone, best thing devs can do for toxicity is just to remove the ######### endgame chat. I get kill threats every 4-5 games man, it is just insane and is like nothing i have ever seen in a video game before.
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we can have diverging opinions on if something qualifies as X.
but not on the definition of X.
you can't redefine the word cube to make it describe a circle
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Show me the official definition. There is none, I was searching for one. And as there is none it is up to us how we define it.
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"dig or force a passage underground or through something."
but on a more serious note.
most people understand tunneling to mean focusing on a single survivor while ignoring others.
so that's the definition we should go with
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"then it's on the survivors to discourage the behavior by playing better by either not feeding the camper or being better at protecting their unhooks."
I only agree on that statement partly. But It feels like it is coming from the same place where people say women should just not leave the house when it’s dark and if they do and get molested it is their fault for being out there or wearing something wrong. Or when a child is bullied at school and someone claims they are to blame for the situation because they don't wear branded clothes or because they listen to the wrong music. Victim blaming is not ok. It is wrong. Always. Everywhere. Anytime. Wrong behaviour is wrong. The fault is on the person exhibiting that behaviour and on no one else.
As decent people, we should not excuse or explain wrongdoing. We should condemn it. Anyone who behaves differently protects the perpetrators. Whoever protects the perpetrator is himself a perpetrator. Good people are not perpetrators. We are responsible for our decisions. For what we do as well as what we don't do when we should do something. Allowing wrong to be done is no less guilty than doing wrong.
But I agree on the point that always suspecting the most malicious behind behavior is not useful or appropriate. You have the opportunity to see which rituals there are and which trophies, to find out whether that could be the reason, you can ask some people. In most cases, I trust people to differentiate between behavior based on selfish and sadistic motives from other behavior. For example, I can't think of a reasonable excuse for the following scenarios, unless one of the scenarios described occurred before the other. The round has just begun and a survivor loops and tbagged the killer and blinds him to each pallet. -> Clearly not appropriate behavior that cannot be excused or explained by anything. A killer who proxy camped the first person he hooked and every time after the rescue he tunnels himself if the other survivors take blows or even let themselves down for the person and the killer still chases that person until they get out of the loop is. -> Pure egoism or sadism that cannot be excused or explained in any other way.
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I have over 5200 hours, with all achievements completed. Almost every single season red ranks both as a killer and as a survivor, except the 3 months break I took. Now back to the point, I do get called out for tunneling or nooby or whatever, but I got like 1-3 death threats in total during those 5 years. So as you said, either i'm extremely lucky or players actually enjoy the experience with or against me. I also never have a malicious intention of ruining someone's match.
If post-game chat is such a problematic thing for you to deal with, just close it, press continue button, no one is forcing you to chat with others, especially when you play the way you want.
My whole point is we're part of a community and if we want to function and maintain a healthy relationship between players, we have to reach a compromise, otherwise this will be a never ending cycle of hatred between two sides.
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Great post buddy
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@JFF "If post-game chat is such a problematic thing for you to deal with, just close it, press continue button, no one is forcing you to chat with others, especially when you play the way you want.
My whole point is we're part of a community and if we want to function and maintain a healthy relationship between players, we have to reach a compromise, otherwise this will be a never ending cycle of hatred between two sides."
If i couldn't deal with the endgame chat i would've quit playing this game in the first 50 hours of killer. I said that so you would really understand what i was trying to say.
I would agree with you if said compromise wasn't the actual reason for the hatred between two sides. At least in my opinion. I think (and also felt) that being face camped and tunneled or being t-bagged aren't really what makes people feel so bad by themselves. I think that the perception that players absolutely cannot do those things and that those things are so bad,disgusting,toxic etc. is what makes them really angry. When i imagine the game and the community without these unwritten rules i really can't see why anyone would get so angry about such simple matters. It is never "You ######### up my game and i couldn't have any fun." It is always "You camping and tunneling son of a #########."
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Suicide on hooks against spirit... that's another unwritten rule.
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“Okay my friend…”
-->We are not friends. Since you use this term anyway and in the following titled my discussion (unfortunately you did not bring any arguments) as "Shitshow" it makes it clear that you feel intimidated and disempowered by my arguments. Therefore you use this term to feel empowered by defaming me as you believe.
“I am apparently a sociopath and morally bankrupt for trying to have some fun”
-->This kind statement is an unfair variety and called "lead to absurdity through exaggeration". In doing so, the discussion partner tries to make you unbelievable and ridiculous by exaggerating your statement or the consequences. I reject your allegation.
“Regardless I don’t have any time or energy to maintain this shitshow”
-->With all due respect, given your (nonexistent) and my (well-researched) arguments, your statement should be mine.
"Since we don't really understand each others perspective regarding this issue, let's leave it here."
-->I reject your allegation. I understand your expression and your frustration. They just seem very self-centered to me. You have formed your opinion and apparently believe you truly know that it is as you described it (even with the lack of arguments). That is understandable, because if you would allow my arguments to be valid, it would result in a cognitive dissonance and a threat to your self-worth. That's probably why you react with aggression and the attempt to defame me. If my explanations were nonsense, you wouldn’t need to worry and with your reasoning, you could continue to behave as you have done so far without having to question your morality. I don't blame you for trying to insult me. Everyone in your situation would defend their self-worth.
“That is your opinion, i don't agree with it and that is fine.”
-->Yes, I have a different opinion. We have different opinions and as you said that is ok. You are free continuing to believe that you can do whatever you want online and that it does not affect your moral integrity in any way. But you cannot ask that the rest of us share your opinion. For others, the severity of misconduct does not depend on whether you show it in a group during an online game or offline. It is a misconduct and that is how it is assessed, evaluated and treated. Even if you don’t like that.
Overall your statement amazes me. I assumed that you opened this post in the discussion forum to discuss. Precisely because we have different views, I think a discussion could be fruitful. Either side can present their arguments. That's what a discussion is about. Unfortunately you seem not appreciate a good high-quality discussion. I think it's a shame that you are withdrawing from it. For me the question remains if you are unable or unwilling to comment on my arguments?
In the future you should think about what your goal is before you post a contribution in a discussion forum. If you just want to get rid of your frustration, you can write that too. A discussion, however, requires argument from both sides.
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The title of that topic should have been "the Survivor Rulebook", and as anyone should hopefully know, the killer isn't a survivor, so they shouldn't care in the slightest about that Rulebook.
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Because no one cares. You are trying to apply rules of argumentation as if this were a collegiate debate team. Those rules ONLY matter when both sides agree to it.
You are trying to make outlandish demands of moral imperative on a video game where one side's job is literally to KILL the other one.
This isn't a lesson on the Humanities, and it isn't a philosophical discussion on whether or not your actions in a video game are MORALLY justified when one side gets stabbed in the head with a sword and then has their tongue ripped out because they teabagged a supernaturally augmented dead samurai lord.
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Your in game behaviour is real, it is always your decision how you play. And you are responsible for those decisions. But you are right the game itself isn't real. A kill required in a game isn't a kill for real I game you respawn or get into another one, that isn't the case in real life.
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Depends on how many people of the community gave their opinions. I'd accept a definition if it was rated by most members of the community (through a survey). But I'll have a look into that. Thanks for the effort.
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Not the case by the way, I am a killer main and I have a different opinion.
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I hate to use that often extremely overused word, but really Cruch, just don't feed the troll.
Is is obviously engaging in very low grade sophistry and isn't worth wasting the time you just spend responding to him.
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@tennmio -->We are not friends. Since you use this term anyway and in the following titled my discussion (unfortunately you did not bring any arguments) as "Shitshow" it makes it clear that you feel intimidated and disempowered by my arguments. Therefore you use this term to feel empowered by defaming me as you believe.
Shitshow was not directed at you. I meant the entire post and comments made. I expected this to get some heat, but not this much and not this quickly.I would like to answer people and share my opinions and get theirs but it is becoming more and more time straining.I should’ve made that more clear so that was my fault.
“I am apparently a sociopath and morally bankrupt for trying to have some fun”
-->This kind statement is an unfair variety and called "lead to absurdity through exaggeration". In doing so, the discussion partner tries to make you unbelievable and ridiculous by exaggerating your statement or the consequences. I reject your allegation.
“Pure egoism or sadism that cannot be excused or explained in any other way.”
These are your exact words regarding tunneling, so i don’t see how i am exaggerating here.
“With all due respect, given your (nonexistent) and my (well-researched) arguments, your statement should be mine.”
How nice of you to assume that only from arguments i made over a video game topic discussion knowing absolutely nothing about what i do in real life.
“I reject your allegation. I understand your expression and your frustration. They just seem very self-centered to me. You have formed your opinion and apparently believe you truly know that it is as you described it (even with the lack of arguments). That is understandable, because if you would allow my arguments to be valid, it would result in a cognitive dissonance and a threat to your self-worth. That's probably why you react with aggression and the attempt to defame me. If my explanations were nonsense, you wouldn’t need to worry and with your reasoning, you could continue to behave as you have done so far without having to question your morality. I don't blame you for trying to insult me. Everyone in your situation would defend their self-worth”
First of all insulting you was just poor judgement on my part.I apologize for that.I admit that i really don’t understand your perspective.I don’t see how can someone expect that a moral code formed by once a tight-net community must still be applicable even though game has evolved and the player base is more than 4 times larger. Failed attemts to ensure that this moral code is adhered by everyone is what causes most of the toxicity in my experience. You can’t expect everyone to follow it, that is simply unrealistic. And since that is the case players get more and more frustrated not because they get face camped,tunneled,t-bagged but because of the repeated assertion of how those things are evil,unspeakable and aren’t supposed to be done etc. Out of frustration they either quit playing or start doing those things themselves. And this causes a repeating circle of hatred between two sides. Other than a select few no one is following these rules anymore anyways. All that is really left is the expectation of it by survivors and the toxicity it causes.Even if what you have said was true, DBD has undoubtedly one of the most toxic communities out there.So how exactly these rules are working for you? Did they make the game more fair and fun?Don’t think so. Most people who quit this game –some of my friends also- quit because what these rules do to the game and the community.They obviously failed to make this community more a peaceful one.So yes i don’t see how abiding moral codes in a video game is a good idea. You are right about cognitive dissonance but that is simply not the case with me.
“Yes, I have a different opinion. We have different opinions and as you said that is ok. You are free continuing to believe that you can do whatever you want online and that it does not affect your moral integrity in any way. But you cannot ask that the rest of us share your opinion. For others, the severity of misconduct does not depend on whether you show it in a group during an online game or offline. It is a misconduct and that is how it is assessed, evaluated and treated. Even if you don’t like that.”
I don’t believe doing whatever online does not compromise my moral integrity.As you said i evaluate my “misconduct” by the effects it has on real life. If it is an action done to someone in a video game let’s just say face camping i use empathy to see how i would feel if i was in their position. Then compare it to how i would feel doing it and go from there.
Effects on real life for person in that position: Negligible(at least for most people)
How i would feel : Joyous
It is not “at their expense”. It is just their moment of frustration compared to my moment of feeling nice. And yes i do care more about how i feel more than how a total stranger feels. No need to be a hypocrite here. If that makes me selfish and self-centered let me be selfish. You can say “you can play in a way that is fun for everyone.” But fun is subjective and i don’t have fun playing by the rules. So why would i trade what i said above to me getting bored and total strangers having fun?Who would do that? Nobody. Because that is not why we are here to play.We are here to play so we can have some fun. We don’t play games to be clowns.So I would say my moral integrity is just fine here.
“Overall your statement amazes me. I assumed that you opened this post in the discussion forum to discuss. Precisely because we have different views, I think a discussion could be fruitful. Either side can present their arguments. That's what a discussion is about. Unfortunately you seem not appreciate a good high-quality discussion. I think it's a shame that you are withdrawing from it. For me the question remains if you are unable or unwilling to comment on my arguments”
Yes i wanted to discuss but i didn’t expect this amount of feedback as i said before. I do appreciate a high-quality discussion, it is just that i am becoming increasingly unavailable recently so i might not be able to comment back, that is why i was trying to end the discussion there.
PS: I edited it and it got deleted for some reason. So this might get posted 2 times.
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I think we have gone off the rails and lost track of the original topic.
To your point about, yes i agree this is a video game but that doesn't mean what he is saying isn't completely wrong. Toxic behavior weather its in real life or a video game is always wrongs and we should all try and condem the behavior.
I agree with mostly what your saying and I respect your attempt to have a thoughtful debate but please dile it back a bit.
Let's all remember to be respectful to each other.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
I feel I should apologize because I unintentionally brought up what is right and wrong which led to this.
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@dspaceman20 No don't apologize. It is actually relevant to the original topic at hand and was one of the things i wanted to discuss.
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What’s not the case? My post basically just said I get accused of camping and tunnelling on killer when it couldn’t be further from the truth. If your experience is different then that’s good but it doesn’t mean my experience matches yours. I just got called a tunneller (amongst other things lol) by a 3 man team for re-hooking a Dwight who literally ran into me in the opposite side of the map 😅
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First of all I’d like to thank you for this civil answer. I appreciate the effort you took writing all this and explaining your point of view to a bigger extent.
“Shitshow was not directed at you. I meant the entire post and comments made. I expected this to get some heat, but not this much and not this quickly.I would like to answer people and share my opinions and get theirs but it is becoming more and more time straining.I should’ve made that more clear so that was my fault.”
-Well that post was directed towards me and ended with why you wanted to stop talking to me personally. I had no clue to come to the conclusion that this post or this word especially- weren’t directed at me. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe I missunderstood.
“‘Pure egoism or sadism that cannot be excused or explained in any other way.’ These are your exact words regarding tunneling, so i don’t see how i am exaggerating here.”
-These were my words regarding a certain kind of tunnelling that is exhibited in a certain kind of situation. If all that applies, well then I indeed have no explanation other than this.
“First of all insulting you was just poor judgement on my part.I apologize for that.I admit that i really don’t understand your perspective.I don’t see how can someone expect that a moral code formed by once a tight-net community must still be applicable even though game has evolved and the player base is more than 4 times larger. Failed attemts to ensure that this moral code is adhered by everyone is what causes most of the toxicity in my experience. You can’t expect everyone to follow it, that is simply unrealistic. And since that is the case players get more and more frustrated not because they get face camped,tunneled,t-bagged but because of the repeated assertion of how those things are evil,unspeakable and aren’t supposed to be done etc. Out of frustration they either quit playing or start doing those things themselves. And this causes a repeating circle of hatred between two sides. Other than a select few no one is following these rules anymore anyways. All that is really left is the expectation of it by survivors and the toxicity it causes.Even if what you have said was true, DBD has undoubtedly one of the most toxic communities out there.So how exactly these rules are working for you? Did they make the game more fair and fun?Don’t think so. Most people who quit this game –some of my friends also- quit because what these rules do to the game and the community.They obviously failed to make this community more a peaceful one.So yes i don’t see how abiding moral codes in a video game is a good idea. You are right about cognitive dissonance but that is simply not the case with me.”
-Thank you for the apology I really appreciate it. I guess I failed making my point clear. I expect morally sound behavior regardless of this specific game. It is what I expect from others and try to exhibit in any community and any social interaction (online and offline). Sure I cannot influence others to behave morally correct, it is their decision. But to me it is my and everyone else’s responsibility to call people out if they are behaving it a way that is morally wrong. Because not reacting to it, staying quiet if something isn’t ok, would imply acceptance or consent. Your theory (expectations on morally good behaviour and getting frustrated and stop playing does have some truth in it. Changing one’s own behaviour in a morally wrong way (toxic) maybe could have some truth in it for younger unstable people) shows how just not caring about morals is the easy way. But from my experience people behaving toxic on one side, get angry if they get treated that way on the other side (double standard). I’ve not yet seen anyone feeling good and reacting understanding while getting facecamped or tunnelled first hook 2 times in a row. This gives me the impression that they have morals and know how to distinguish right from wrong, but are selfish. You say you wouldn’t be influenced in a negative way, I guess that is possible if someone plays the game without any goal so maybe you are one of those. (From my experience most people have a goal; get a 4k; escape with an item; get a challenge or daily done and they would get affected by unfair in-game decisions.)
In summary we have different points of views. Maybe we could go with this: I (and the ones sharing my point of view) feel “attacked” by your behavior, you feel “attacked” by our messages to your behavior. I guess we all have to live with this or quit the game.
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I mean, if you are tunnelling someone, even though people are literally throwing themselves at you to give you another easy target/free hit/free down and you STILL will not leave that one person alone, and it's not even late game- you're probably just an awful person to play games with or be around.
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