What is skill or a win? The Lead Game Designer knows it the best
Lmao
Comments
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It is like the hockey.
If killer has a lot of shots (hooks) it doesnt mean that he is skilled. Only goals (kills count).
On the other side, if you as a survivor sit and warm a bench, and your team opens you exit gates and you manage to go out. You are equally skilled as them, just more as a observing ninja
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JRM is an example of a very bad player, right? He basically never escapes, therefore the fact that he can be chased for like 3 minutes isn't an indication of skill.
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He is right. Try refuting him. You can't. Poggy woggy someone is a bit soggy.
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Right on point. He is just bad at the game - Patrick
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Why do you think he is wrong?
Just making fun about this quote does nothing and people who get fed up with it are mostly not bothering to talk about the point.
Let me illustrate this: Think about a Killer running "Hex: No one escapes Death", "Bloodwarden", "No Way Out" and "Coupe de'Grace". This Killer looses 5 generators and then Killers everybody on their second hook and you on your first.
Now, where you skillful to run the Killer for 5 generators? Maybe. Did you just play into his strategy all along? Yes.
Or to take a less extreme example: You finish all generators. The Killer is Bubba. He has NoeD. You ran him for 5 generators, your teammate was a potato that hide in a locker where Bubba grabt her.The gates are open. You now have to make the decision: Rescue your teammate or just leave.
If you die trying to be super altruistic, was you decision a good one? Should you maybe get punished for bad decisions even in the very end?
If the goal is to escape...
What is more skillful? Run the Killer and get downed or let another survivor take the heat and just smash that generator M1 and stealth away?
I am not good at looping. I can stealth and I have a good coordination on the map. I can evade a Killer pretty good and outplay them with "Fixated" to no end.
What you call "warming the bench" is also not entirely true. If we stay with sports: You players in the reserve also get the cup if their team wins. Why? Because if the reserve plays well when their times has come they have an impact.
Or would you say that the reserve players should be excluded from the rewards for winning a season if they had little time to shine?
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Sigh
This is sad.
I used to really respect Dowsey but he's slowly but surely becoming yet another "bash the devs" channel
Really hope VHS picks up sooner rather then later that he can switch to that before going full SC on propaganda negativity.
I know i'm going to get flack for this but it's really hard to look at things like this and not see mr 200 win streak on twins being salty cause he suddenly has to start facing survivors of his own caliber
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You're completely missing the point of the critique. If being able to run the killer for 5 gens and then getting one hooked by being facecamped while the other three leave isn't skillful according to SBMM... you are also saying the survivors who managed to hold M1 for ~5 minutes and then run out the exit gate unopposed are clearly much more skilled.
Its literally an ends justifying the means argument and a really bad one at that. Take the word skill out of the equation if you're not even going to attempt to adhere to it.
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What the hell did I just read? Hockey has a ton of statistics that track individual performance every game, regardless of if you win or lose. Hockey is also a balanced game with equal players that have the same goals. DBD is an asymmetrical game with two sides that have vastly different goals.
Even the example they used to try to explain it shows how they don't understand skill in their own video game. And they had time to think of an answer to this pre-determined question.. then oof.
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It's a weird idea.
Either the devs should, like... stop pretending it's supposed to reflect skill, or maybe start treating the way MMR is adjudicated like it's a team game? And not this bizarre "if one person dies they are clearly the worst and need an easier game" logic.
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Okay, let me do the same thing to you, you did to me with this post...just to show the fallacy of one of your statements...
So you are also saying that while you are looping the Killer I should not hold M1 and slam that sweet generator? Okay, noted. Next match I will do fancy stuff like cleansing dulls, opening chests and try to tank a hit even thou I am pretty ######### at looping. If that is what is more appreciated...
What I am saying thou is that holding M1 on a generator is the right thing. Leaving you to die when you get facecamped by Bubba is the right thing and leaving the match when the Killer has NoeD and I can not find it on any totem I saw during the match is also the right thing.
Sometimes altruism is going to get you killed and egoism is the right call.
I never said that "team performance" should not get included in your MMR result. This is a team effort after all and the system should be improved in this point.
But tell me: Do you really want that number to go up so that you face more face-camping Bubbas with NoeD, Nurses with Infectious Fright/Ruin/Pop/Scourge, tunneling Blights with Alchemist Ring and other sweaty stuff like that?
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They are more skilled at doing the objective of escaping, yes.
The problem with the whole "But I ran the Killer for 5 gens" argument is that if you managed to run a killer for 5 gens, they were a bad killer. And if they are a bad killer that means you likely had LOTS of chances to evade the killer. But no, the 5 gen runners do not WANT to evade the killer. They want to stay in chase the whole game "because gens are boring".
So yes, if you want to willfully ignore the objective on purpose because all you want to do is stay in chase, you are ignoring the objective. What you really mean is you want to get rewarded for chases. Which are not an objective.
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I... what? When did I ever say you shouldn't be doing gens if someone is getting tunneled for 5 gens? Thats exactly what you should be doing. That doesn't make it skillful though, just not-braindead. The entire argument that I (and most people) have is that the game's metrics of skill do not, in fact, account for skill, especially with his outlook. They assume skill must have been involved because the outcome is favorable.
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Well guess I’m absolute trash at the game (I go for hooks instead of kills)
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If I get tunneled for 5 gens, i have likely more than capped out Boldness points and would certainly like to do something else. I can't count how many times I've just simply been unable to get the killer to disengage, and they throw the entire game just refusing to switch targets. especially lately.
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Just get better at hockey.
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I mean, how many streamers have to convert in such a way before one starts to wonder why that is happening?
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Right, you did not.
Just as I did not say that "survivors who managed to hold M1 for ~5 minutes and then run out the exit gate unopposed are clearly much more skilled.". Just because I say A is false does not mean I say B is right. You never said that I should leave generators. This was just for showing the hole in the argument.
Now I do not care how many people make an argument. Just because 100 people say 1+1=3 does not make it true.
The problem we have comes form the assumption that it should be a "skill based" matchmaking. I suggest a rebrand "kill based" matchmaking would be much better. True it does not measure skill as much as we want. But what results does it archive?
As said: The camping Bubba will face the sweaty 4 person SWF. The chilled Clown who plays for hooks will go up against chilled 2-2 lobbies and it is fair because both sides have the same premise of putting "fun" over "winning".
Skill should not matter here because clearly the Clown shows off more skill than out friendly Cannibal. However would you want their positions changed?
People say they want to put opponents of equal skill against each other. However that would only result in a fair match if both sides do not hold back and bring their absolute best. 4 person SWF with full mambo-jumbo against meta-nurse with no holds barren and we can put the opponents together by measuring skill.
Not so for out clowny friend. Even if he is tons more skilled his self set boundary when playing against an equally skilled opponent will have him crushed before he can even whip his knife a single time.
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I just quoted Patricks words from the stream yday, with addition to bench guy
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This is very easy to refute and there’s no need to overcomplicate things.
How do we define skill? Does it not depend on your objective? Looping a good killer for 5 gens undoubtedly takes skill, however if your goal is to simply escape, and matchmaking is based on escapes, then isn’t it technically more skilful to hide while your less competent teammates do all the busy work?
No. It is not. Don’t be ridiculous.
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Always a good idea to keep your MMR low if you create juking videos.
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If you're done being a contrarian, the topic is about a comment that being able to run the killer for 5 gens is not skillful if you don't escape the match. You went on a rant about how you agree and how anyone who disagrees must be wrong, starting with
"Why do you think he is wrong?
Just making fun about this quote does nothing and people who get fed up with it are mostly not bothering to talk about the point."
To which I gave the self evident counterargument. I implied nothing. I didn't put any words in your mouth. You're just looking to rant at people for dunking on a notoriously bad take from a dev (which almost feels like a tradition at this point in this game.)
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Okay, but how is he wrong? The MMR system doesn't measure skill in the slightest.
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Then get out of chase. Stop teabagging. Stop waiting at the pallet. Stop intentionally keeping the killer on you just to waste his time. You may find it fun, and that is your choice, but if you want to do other things you should make efforts to escape the chase. The game is intended, by the developer's own words, to be stealth based.
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"If running the Killer for 5 gens doesn't get you the win" - But it does get you the win, Patrick, by definition. Your team is able to escape because of your chase skills. Frankly, anyone who actually plays this game often could tell you running the Killer is by far the #1 representation of skill as a Survivor. And yet the literal lead designer just doesn't comprehend that. Sad.
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I don't teabag, and i actually use pallets as sparingly as i can. Actually gets me in trouble a lot. I don't do any of the toxic youtube video stuff you seem to be implying I do. A lot of killers just dont feel confident anymore, and if 2-3 gens fly during a chase they tend to hunker down and try to secure 1-2 kills, which leads to the tunneling.
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Dude it's just sad they have zero idea what skill in their own game represents
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maybe its why mclean has left a
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But it won't really bring you victory. But it will bring victory to your team!
But there is also another opinion. If you ran through the killer 5 gens, then this is not your skill. This is the killer's mistake. So skill is subjective.
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Well for starters he's looking and judging it from a single game.
Yes running the killer for 5 gens and then dying lowering your mmr is odd. But that's not what happens the mayority of the games.
Sorry but in my experience both survivor and killer side the person who runs the killer for 5 gens typically is the person who runs out of the exit gates protected by 2 people bodyblocking, BT ,DS and a person standing at the gate ready to open it at any time.
It happens in solo that your teammates just leave you behind but that is a edge case scenario. That's not how the 5 gen chases typically end.
And you know when they do end like that most of the time. If, despite 3 survivors being free to do gens as fast as possible, every single recourse on the map is gone.
Now this may just be me but running from loop to loop insta throwing every pallets and getting lucky the killer doesn't break off and the other survivors were actually efficient on gens also doesn't sound like the epitome of skill to me.
Does the player that ran the killer around the game map and threw all 25 pallets despite the game only taking 4 minutes have skill and deserves to gain mmr despite dying?
It's easy to find edge case scenarios where a system doesn't work. Just like it was easy for me to find a edge case where mmr wouldn't work if based on chase time.
Or how it was easy for the dev to find the edge case of 8 hooks and all survivors escape means suddenly everybody wins vs the mmr based on hooks. No system will ever be without flaws
All in all post like this only feed negativity and further drive the community and the devs appart.
Dowsey indeed isn't entirelly wrong. But this isn't helping either
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Seems Dowsey does not know what averages are. Seems most of the Community don't either.
If you are so god like, you will escape the majority of your matches anyway, so you will get higher MMR.
This Community is just depressing. Demanding a system that takes potentially an unlimited possibilities into account, while averages do the job.
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It only represents skill at looping. Looping is not a victory condition.
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I daresay you might have missed the point of what the devs were saying. If you have the skill to run the killer for 5-gens, then overall you'd be escaping more and thus your skill would go up. It's a metric that's designed to self-calibrate over a series of matches, not move accurately after each and every single match because anomalies can occur.
The downfall though is the assumption of playing to escape. Someone like JRM might be ranked badly because, even though he's a skilled player, he doesn't play to escape. But then, he's in the minority and it makes little sense to design around these edge cases, at least in the early stages.
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It might be time for people to consider accepting the fact that it’s the devs who decide what the win condition is not the community. If they say kills/escapes are what they value most since those are the objectives, accomplishing those objectives are what matter most. Anything else is just optional filler to round out the experience. If you are survivor your job is to do the gens and leave. If you are a killer, your job is to get kills by any means possible before the survivors escape. People may not like that it’s this black and white, but how many times do we have to be told this before we actually believe it lol.
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Hiding all game though is actually detrimental to your chances to escape if it means the gens don’t get done. The optimal strategy is a combination of hiding, doing gens and rescuing someone else if needed, and being able to delay being hit as long as possible while being chased.
The notion that on average people who try and hide all game have high MmR on average is a fallcy.
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You mean a system like emblems?
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Since when does Dowsey weigh in? Isn't he a VHS guy now.
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It's really condescending, I main pinhead, so landing chains (and actually getting injures/downs) is very tough most times. But getting 8 hooks is less skillful because I'm outplayed by a bubba who camps basement and gets a 1k, 2k or a 3k.
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That hockey analogy he gave was TERRIBLE.
Here's a post from last night where myself and others explain why it was terrible analogy - I even touch on why the hits comment was bad comparison.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/306122/sports-analogy#latest
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What is sad is that the emblem system gives you points for how many gens are done during a chase by your team. So in this example of a 5 gen chase, the survivor in chase would get a ton of emblem points. That equals skill. imo the devs already have a good foundation to build a real SBMM system off of which is the emblems. The points should be tweaked based on what actions should hold more weight. So for example chase points would be higher than gen repairs b/c clearly there is more skill involved in knowing how to run a tile than holding M1 for 90 seconds.
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Your MMR is determined by how many games you win vs how many games you lose. MMR cannot interpret how much "skill" a player has by running the killer for 5 gens and ultimately dying for it.
Not only is that completely reckless for someone to do but it's also belligerent, demeaning and selfish. Now I also understand that Twitch is a performer's platform and some people feel they have to perform for their audience... but that doesnt change the outcome of your decisions.
In a nutshell they're saying maybe you should make better decisions because those are what win you more games. Instead of acting like a tool and expecting compensation for your lack of apathy.
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i know. We all miss McLean. And hopefully Patrick will enjoy a civilization for week or two
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What? You don't have a choice to run the killer for 5 gens. The killer is the one who determines that. If the killer decides they want you dead in particular, you don't have the ability to go "please, sir, can you chase someone else?" All you can do is run the best you're able.
Even if you're being a dick and tbagging/clicking to attempt to preserve aggro, it's entirely in the killer's power to go "this is a bad move, this person is wasting too much of my time" and break off. Most players who aren't bad, griefing, or unduly tilted will do this. But assuming trolling is stupid; I've seen plenty of people get chased for unreasonably long periods of time for no reason that I could discern. Or they got chased for half the game and facecamped for the rest because they got a flashlight save or a pallet stun.
If you can run the killer for five gens, you're good at the game. Full stop. Even if it's a newer killer (who are more likely to fall into the fallacy of never breaking chase), you're good at the game to be able to do that, and your MMR is clearly too low where it's at. Certainly you deserve an MMR increase more than your teammates do, as they had no chase interaction at all and may as well have been playing the tutorial - but they're the ones who are going to get out the gates, not you. This is an issue with survivor especially because it is so easy to die or escape solely because of your teammates' contributions (or lack thereof.)
Sure, MMR can't interpret how much skill you have - because it only looks at escapes and kills. If it looked at things like hooks, average chase times, and missed swings in addition to that, it'd have a better picture.
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The Emblem System didnt do that either, and it had other problems.
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I agree hiding is not the best strategy, but my point is that if you do the bare minimum, play it ultra safe and let your team take most of the pressure, if you escape, in the devs eyes it makes you more skilled than someone who loops the killer all game, gets every unhook, heals every injured teammate, takes protection hits, etc, but who doesn’t escape because they sacrifice themselves to save everyone else.
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It's not an ideal explanation, but in terms of a simplest solution it does make sense that escaping involves skill for the most part. There have been a few trials I've noted one of the people who escaped is somehow bottom 2 on a list, underneath someone with more BP but they died.
But skill is so much more than just winning, especially in a game such as this where not only is skill important, but so too is luck (not the game definition!), experience, creativity, perks, etc.. I'd have been happier if he had avoided including skill in the definition and just said it was win/loss only.
It's like 2 football teams playing, where one dominates for 89 minutes, until a referee gives a penalty for the other side when it wasn't actually a foul and the other team score the 1 goal: The lesser team won. Doesn't take away that they won, but it cannot be argued that they won through skill. Moreover, a lot of pure luck that granted a penalty.
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No, they understand. They also understand it is a lazy way of doing it.
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I am so glad you actually said this. I'm so tired of people giving "one game" as an example. If you are giving "one game" as an example, you are completely losing the entire point of SBMMR.
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If you can run the killer for 5 gens, the MMR system would match you will another killer of the same level. Does that sound like a good idea?
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He plays for content, not for win. That's why your example isn't that good. It's like soccer player who wants to score goals only in fanciest way to impress their fans
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I'm going to direct the people who are taking this quote shown in the tweet as fact and without any context, to the actual live stream where this was discussed and explained at length - as well as explaining what is planned to happen with taking in team results into consideration as a survivor, which then might take into account the player who ran the killer for the 5 gens that the other survivors did.
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