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The Legitimate Case Against Spirit
Comments
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"There are lots of killers that are downright oppressive in the right hands, especially in at rank 1."
Against bad survivors. Old nurse was the only one that fit this.
"The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER."
No, the reason she is disliked is because most survivors refuse to learn how to counter her and instead come here to forums complaining she has no counter. She has lots of counters. Survivors dislike any killer that isn't pallet loopable in the bully simulator.
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All of the perks that counter Spirit work great against all killers.
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They're effective against other killers. But not mandatory. If you're trying to counter Spirit. Iron Will is mandatory.
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Didn't say they were mandatory.
Iron Will is not mandatory.
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This comment has almost no substance and offers nothing to the discussion. I posted 3 paragraphs about why she's frustrating that you clearly didn't read. This 'survivors are just whiny' rhetoric is a major reason why there is such a divide in the community. The original post acknowledges that there are ways to give yourself a better chance against her.
Let's take your one point and try to expand on it. If Spirit is not pallet loopable, what are the 'lots of counters' survivors can use against her? There have already been comments about how stealth is an option, but it's currently a weak play style. What else do you have for us?
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I love going against nurse, but absolutely hate going against spirit. It's not about her being unloopable.
You might as well wrote git gut baby survivor in that post btw
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" The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER."
Yeah I just stopped reading right 'er
She does have counterplay to her power, people just give up too easily against her
Several perks counter her
Making a mess with scratch marks makes it harder for her to track you
Walking
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"This comment has almost no substance and offers nothing to the discussion. I posted 3 paragraphs about why she's frustrating that you clearly didn't read."
It entirely does offer substance, you just refuse to believe it. I pointed out that your entire base premise is not correct. I did read it, I just think you are wrong.
"This 'survivors are just whiny' rhetoric is a major reason why there is such a divide in the community."
Because that is actually what is happening. The only people agreeing with you are people who don't actually play both sides at rank 1 to understand the games balance. What IS dividing the community are people pushing for game changes that don't have a full grasp of the game.
"The original post acknowledges that there are ways to give yourself a better chance against her."
"The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER."
Yes, you listed some perks yet you also completely contradicted yourself in your same post.
"If Spirit is not pallet loopable, what are the 'lots of counters' survivors can use against her?"
This had already been answered on this post if you simply scroll up as well as ad nauseam in these forums.
You can hear her footsteps quite easily.
You juke your scratch marks by doubling back a different direction.
Lots more walking and less running allows her to be juked quite easily.
If she isn't hearing you she is entirely trying to predict your movement. Be unpredictable.
Fast vault a window and then slow vault back over. Works A LOT.
This is all not taking into account stealth since you already mentioned that and the many perks that counter her as well. Most of those perks are also still very good against other killers. You mention in your original post whether survivors can "afford" to run them. Really? Survivors could literally run zero perks right now and they are still the power role. Yes, they can afford to run any off meta thing they like. I'd even argue Iron Will is hard meta and Spine Chill low key.
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Writing "git gud" isn't contributing to the discussion or being detailed as to why I disagree. Typing that isn't going to get a thought out response or someone to reconsider their view point. It just starts a flame war at each other.
However, that is generally the issue here.
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It's just now she requires a modicum of technical skill, when before she was accessible and effective to every braindead chimp that picked her up.
Say that to all the Baby Nurses that go through hell trying to learn her. I personally crushed the hopes and dreams of one yesterday. Your statement just goes to show the ignorance of some of the player base and the sad reality that the Devs listen to it.
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x has no counterplay.
I am tired of reading it, there are perks that do counter x. When you don't pick those perks don't come here to state some story about no counterplay.
Why are killers expected to equip perks to counter specific stuff in the game and yet survivors can not be bothered with it?
There is understandling and tolerance for disconnecting from a game " we have to change what makes the snowflakes disconnect, banning will not solve anything".
Yet somewhat asking the question as to why most people play nurse/spirit and why you do not see an even amount of all killers in red ranks is something people like to ignore. We have to balance around top players on one character and goofing around for the other.
Go make another brilliant rework, cant wait for the waiting times i will be getting by that time.
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I really don't think you're actually reading or understanding the posts. I'll do the quotes like you did for context.
"It entirely does offer substance, you just refuse to believe it. I pointed out that your entire base premise is not correct. I did read it, I just think you are wrong."
You said "there aren't any other oppressive killers at Rank 1 against good survivors" and "survivors aren't learning how to counter her". The first point is flat out not true and the second was addressed in the original post.
"Because that is actually what is happening. The only people agreeing with you are people who don't actually play both sides at rank 1 to understand the games balance. What IS dividing the community are people pushing for game changes that don't have a full grasp of the game."
Could you post screenshots of your current rank on both sides to justify your opinions, then? If that's what's needed to have an opinion, go ahead and show us why you have more legitimacy to comment than I do.
"This had already been answered on this post if you simply scroll up as well as ad nauseam in these forums.You can hear her footsteps quite easily. You juke your scratch marks by doubling back a different direction. Lots more walking and less running allows her to be juked quite easily. If she isn't hearing you she is entirely trying to predict your movement. Be unpredictable. Fast vault a window and then slow vault back over. Works A LOT."
This is actual proof that you don't play survivor at rank 1. Do you really think we're not doing these things already? It's very telling that you think high rank survivors haven't been trying all of these things. You can't actually hear her footsteps well enough to outplay her. The other 4 suggestions are all countered by her collision while phasing.
"This is all not taking into account stealth since you already mentioned that and the many perks that counter her as well. Most of those perks are also still very good against other killers. You mention in your original post whether survivors can "afford" to run them. Really? Survivors could literally run zero perks right now and they are still the power role. Yes, they can afford to run any off meta thing they like. I'd even argue Iron Will is hard meta and Spine Chill low key."
I guess we are at an impasse if you're of the mind that survivors are the current power role. The game feels relatively balanced in most situations right now. The only thing that would change my mind is seeing survival rates from BHVR. Seems like you're stuck in 2017-2018.
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Considering that those are likely a bug and they don't work on some skins I'd not use that. You might get a falsely think you know something you don't and make a mistake.
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"You said "there aren't any other oppressive killers at Rank 1 against good survivors" and "survivors aren't learning how to counter her". The first point is flat out not true and the second was addressed in the original post."
Yes it is true and no it wasn't.
"Could you post screenshots of your current rank on both sides to justify your opinions, then? If that's what's needed to have an opinion, go ahead and show us why you have more legitimacy to comment than I do."
Near 4, 000 hours, achieves and my twitch stream for viewing pleasure. Link yours as well?
"This is actual proof that you don't play survivor at rank 1. Do you really think we're not doing these things already?"
The fact you don't think these work tells me you don't. I've linked my hours, achieves and my live stream for my legitimacy. I've played both sides at rank 1 for years on every reset.
"It's very telling that you think high rank survivors haven't been trying all of these things. You can't actually hear her footsteps well enough to outplay her. The other 4 suggestions are all countered by her collision while phasing."
Most survivors don't learn how to play against her and don't do these things. Instead they come to the forums like you have. Those other 4 things are only countered by phase collision if you're bad and don't know how to do it properly.
"I guess we are at an impasse if you're of the mind that survivors are the current power role. The game feels relatively balanced in most situations right now. The only thing that would change my mind is seeing survival rates from BHVR. Seems like you're stuck in 2017-2018."
If you think the game is relatively balanced right now then you don't play both sides at rank 1 at all. I think you're stuck at low ranks in 2019 and haven't realized the games balance yet.
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5.3 hours in the last two weeks is a big LOL for me. It's great that you have 4k hours; I can respect that you have a lot of experience to comment from. It's clear you aren't actively playing right now, though. Again, stuck in the past where killers were getting bullied every trial.
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Perks should never be considered counterplay for a killers power. Counterplay is something you do in response to something happening in a match, you can't change your perks in a match to counter spirit. It's a little different playing killer, the perks you mentioned for killer work in every single game because all survivors are the same. It'd be like if doctor was the only killer, everyone would run calm mind. Franks is an exception, but you can see if the survivors have items before the match even starts.
If you want perks to count as a counter we need to know what killer we're facing, which would be horrible for the game, or make all killers countered by the same perks across the board, which would also be bad (old mettle of man says hi). As it stands the Spirit needs to be changed in someway so the chase is not favored so highly in her favor. She doesn't need to be gutted, but the survivors need information to make meaningful decisions against her.
As a killer main myself, she takes barely any effort, and when I do win I feel like its just because the survivors can't do much and just lost the 20% chance they had to guess right. There's too much info I get while the survivor gets none. Scratch marks, Pain sound (stridor says hi to IW btw), footsteps, moving grass, and collision. It's too much, especially combined with the crack speed she gets. Meanwhile survivor gets ?????? nothing. Maybe a little glass glow, but that's not always visible depending on skins, lighting, and LOS blockers.
My fiance plays spirit, can barely get 1-2 kills by camping, tunneling, and using NoED with any other killer. Plays spirit and goes straight up to 4k almost every match. The spirit is the issue from my experience and it'd be very hard to persuade me otherwise given my experience as and against her.
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"5.3 hours in the last two weeks is a big LOL for me."
So someone in medical school has a week of exams and that is LOL worthy? Interesting.
"It's clear you aren't actively playing right now, though."
Again, if that's the assumption you gather from a recent week play time that is quite ignorant.
Also, all you showed was survivors. Let's see the killer rank 1 as well.
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Human beings are often predictable in situations where they don't have to be. This game is one of them.
Basically people are incapable of acting randomly, and when they try it's fairly simple to tell the difference between their attempt and actual randomness.
If a Computer were using the Spirit and chased you then they would catch you exactly half the time at each mindgame attempt no matter what. But since Humans are not computers this isn't the case.
It's the difference between flipping a coin and someone putting down a coin on a specific side.
Either way you statistically have 50/50 odds of saying the right side. However if the person is deliberately chosing which side is face up then it's possible to develop a pattern of when each side will be up based on which sides have been up on previous attempts.
In dead by daylight you can do even better, since each action each player could take also has advantages beyond the mindgame itself, this makes each player biased towards specific options before predictability is taken into account making it even easier to make a prediction.
So in the pallet juke I just defined, the Spirit has given me 0 information, yet I'm still highly likely to have predicted them successfully because I've made the option I want them to take seem artificially optimal.
The only reason I can't keep doing it is because a good Spirit will just wait for me longer the next time to catch the juke. But now I know I can just keep running and not take a hit since they'll expect a juke.
After that a prediction is harder since they know I'm willing to mix it up, but considering that both of those jukes should work on nearly every Spirit at any sufficiently long loop that's already really good.
There are a bunch of other jukes that are more situational, but the point is that you are looking for information in the wrong place if you are expecting the game to just tell you what she's doing.
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"So someone in medical school has a week of exams and that is LOL worthy? Interesting."
When you're trying to assert authority about the CURRENT state of the game and have 5 hours in the last two weeks? Yep.
"Again, if that's the assumption you gather from a recent week play time that is quite ignorant."
Assuming that you're not actively playing because your profile indicates you're not actively playing is ignorant? Oh boy...
"Also, all you showed was survivors. Let's see the killer rank 1 as well."
I don't have rank 1 killer yet this reset. The screenshot was a response to being told I don't play rank 1 survivor. You didn't provide a screenshot of either yet.
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OP: Spirit needs adjustments because her power gives you no information and as such are forced to guess, making it extremely unfun to play against.
Over half the megaminds in this thread: Omg just use X perk to counter her, stop trying to run her like an M1 killer, ugh survivors just want to 1v1, etc.
My god.
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"When you're trying to assert authority about the CURRENT state of the game and have 5 hours in the last two weeks? Yep."
That's just ignorant then and lacks critical thinking.
"Assuming that you're not actively playing because your profile indicates you're not actively playing is ignorant? Oh boy..."
Two weeks is not a determinant of "active playing".
"'I don't have rank 1 killer yet this reset. The screenshot was a response to being told I don't play rank 1 survivor."
I never said you didn't play rank 1 survivor. What I said was that you don't play BOTH sides at rank 1. So based on your logic above should I assume you aren't actively playing killer as well and that you are still stuck in 2018? That would sound stupid wouldn't it.
"You didn't provide a screenshot of either yet."
I have a stream that can be watched.
I'd also like to see your hours still as well.
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There are a honestly a few counterplays to her power.
1. Fixated. Walking at faster movement to not leave scratch marks she can follow is a big advantage. If you are injured, well.
2. Iron Will. Solid perk for countering her as most spirits can find you when injured about 10x faster due to the injured noises. Run Iron Will and they lose that power.
3. Spine Chill. I run the perk all the time anymore due to its versatility. It picks up all killers and when the spirit is phasing, your Spine Chill will go off when she is looking at you.
4. Good Headphones. Even if running prayer beads, her phasing causes stuff in the environment around you to move and make noise, just pay attention and what your butt for when she is coming.
5. Remembering she has a cooldown. I've seen so many people mess up mind games because of her standing still IMMEDIATELY AFTER PHASING THERE. She can't phase again yet, just run. Remember after she phases it takes her a bit to regain that ability so use it to your advantage to know when the mindgame may be a fake out.
These are the ones off the top of my head. I've had no issues playing against Spirit as a survivor. And never once thought she was too powerful when playing killer. There are counters to her power, they are just more difficult to learn and that is a fair trade considering she is more difficult to play as a killer.
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"That's just ignorant then and lacks critical thinking."
Calling people ignorant when you can't justify an argument is another big LOL.
"Two weeks is not a determinant of "active playing"".
Okay?
"I never said you didn't play rank 1 survivor. What I said was that you don't play BOTH sides at rank 1. So based on your logic above should I assume you aren't actively playing killer as well and that you are still stuck in 2018? That would sound stupid wouldn't it."
I do play both sides at rank 1 every month. I don't have killer there YET since 10/13. I didn't say you weren't actively playing based on your rank. I said you weren't actively playing because of the recent hours on your Steam profile. Is this a strawman or lack of comprehension?
"I have a stream that can be watched."
It's not currently live. Please post some screenshots when you get a chance.
"I'd also like to see your hours still as well."
I have 1k hours. Does that not show up in my Steam profile?
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I agree with all of this except for the idea that she is difficult to play.
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tl;dr
'I can't bully the killer. BHVR please nerf.'
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from what I hear they are not a bug, they used to glow a lot more after her release but then was changed, also her hair resets its animation when she phases, yes some skins hide the hair detail but there is always glass shards on her to see, some skins hide it yes but don't forget blendete exists still so using cosmetics to ones advantage is not unheard of in this game
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I'm saying I'd prefer to plan as if they are going to use a cosmetic to their advantage so that if and when they do I'm not screwed due to relying on info that I now don't have.
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Maybe its because I am at purple ranks but I have never had an issues with spirit. Sometimes they are amazing and get a 4k, and other times it is wash for them and we escape.
I think the issue is that a lot of people run the same load out. DS, Adrenaline, Sprint Burst, BT, Dead Hard, Balanced, etc. These aren't always the most effective tool for the killer they are about to face against.
I always have Urban and Spine Chill on and this can be why spirit is a non issue for me. If anything I love playing against her because I can keep a spirit with surveillance occupied for a VERY long time.
Everyone has their opinions but I think spirit is fine. I would find it boring if all killers had 'easy counters'... I know I am the minority tho.
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This is what happens when people don't know how to have a civil discussion that's not even close in relation to OP's post at all.
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If anyone from this thread didn't catch these videos, both were released today.
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I think they should just change it so there is in fact an animation for when shes phasing. Other than that i dont see any thing else short of a hard nerf that will make her better to play against. Cause the fact is that she is NOT fun to play against. Good add ons and good perks make her that much better.
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Fatigue after using her power, she will have a brief moment to attack before being affected.
And whoever says that she is balanced really only plays killer mode, she can put stridor and override the counter of the survivors.
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Fatigue might be interesting, but what I’m hoping for is something you can react to while she’s using her power.
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you can tell if shes using her power by: Her glass shards glowing, her hair straightening, and the sound of her footsteps if shes close enough and at loops and with a good headset i hear them pretty often. people cant use this because they are too lazy to try and use them so they want her nerfed. Is she still strong even when you know these things? yes but that's how every killer should be.
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Show me video evidence of the glass shards glowing
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You can’t reliably tell if she’s using her power, or else the ‘mind game’ where she just stands still wouldn’t work. There is no directional audio queue, footsteps or other, while she is phasing.
The issue isn’t that she’s strong. There are other strong killers that aren’t even close to being as frustrating to play against. The issue is that the only survivor counter play is a 100% guess.
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Huntress' Hatchets have the downside of really bad hitboxes against objects.
Spirit has some really decent counters, which work consistently if you don't let yourself get injured. She isn't countered in the same way as 90% of killers can be... with proper loops.
If you only complained about Beads, I'd understand. SInce there is no counterplay to that. But Spirit as a whole? Yeah, no. Spirit has counters.
Misleading your scratch marks, hiding instead of wanting a chase. Then there is Iron Will (although more experienced spirits will use Stridor).
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Excuse me but is defending the spirit ?, excuse me, but almost all the spirits I see are bad mental games, the simple fact of having decent headphones make the game.
iron will ?, stridor ...
That the killer forces you to leave a loop just to remain still is not a mental game and does not require skill.
A few hours ago I found a spirit of 100 hours in the red rank (yes, the simple fact of being a spirit makes it rise) that was mediocre in the loops, but I got caught instantly after my first hit ... you know Why ?, Because she is the best player in the world.
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Just because she can down you does not mean she's OP. No offense, but I don't think you're one of the best DBD players in the world.
But then, Nurse was nerfed because Survivors were too lazy to learn how to outplay her, so the fact that they are too lazy to learn Spirit's counters is enough reason for BHVR to 'Look atl her next.
Have fun now, Spirit mains! When BHVR is done, Spirit will probably have some or all of the following:
A 10 second charge up to Phase Walk. If you cancel it, her power goes on cooldown. If Survivors shine a flashlight at you at any time, it will be canceled.
Your fake image will t-pose, to let Survivors know you're not faking & actually Phase Walked. Because Survivors don't want to mindgame.
You will be given Wraith's shimmer when Phase Walking, only 50% more visible. Because Survivors REALLY don't want to mindgame.
When you exit Phase Walk, you will promptly get Nurse's Fatigue effect, because appearing & pulling people off of generators is OP.
If a Survivor flashlight stuns you out of Phase Walk, all Survivors will get a free self-unhooking. Because BHVR feels 'high risk' play should be rewarded.
If Survivors drop a pallet anywhere on the map, the Spirit will teleport to it to get hit. Because we can't have a pallet go to waste.
Only then will BHVR feel that Spirit is 'in a better place' and they will be 'happy with their minor tweaks to her base kit'.
And she will stay this way until October 4019, when they will look at her again and make some more 'minor adjustments'. ..Or when Survivors are bored with every Killer being a bloodpoint farm.
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Smol correction then. Difficult to play when phasing to actually catch and hit people post-phase
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Isn't "x killer is boring to play against" just survivor talk for "I can't run around in a circle and MLG loop them for the game"? I suppose it could be "boring" to lose your chases before you can do much of that.
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Ive think of another way to make Spirit power weaker in chase: add more vfx sfx when she start phasing, if she cancel phasing (more than 50% power bar), the power bar starts reloading at 50%. This is to make Spirit can not constantly pretend like shes phasing.
Of course giving her more power in surprise attack.
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I've been trying to learn Spirit recently and while she does feel powerful, there are 2 changes that people have suggested that'd make it a bit better for survivors that I agree with. Lose the collision and make Survivor audio (breathing, grunts of pain, healing) no longer directionalised, like her phasing.
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Can we nerf all survivors please
See, that's ######### annoying too 🤷
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Go ahead and quote the part where I said Spirit needed to be nerfed.
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No, the reason survivors have no fun verse her is because it is basically a guessing game. I play to be reacting to my opponent, not guessing. That's the whole point of PVP games, to react and outplay your opponent. This doesn't happen with Spirit. Its simple to fix her though.
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