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The Legitimate Case Against Spirit
I’m going to try to present what I think is a legitimate case as to why Spirit is so frustrating to play against as survivor. I’ve made this comment in a couple threads already, so apologies ahead of time if it seems like I’m repeating myself.
Survivors don’t dislike Spirit because she’s the only Killer that consistently dominates. There are lots of killers that are downright oppressive in the right hands, especially in at rank 1. The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER.
A lot of people will discuss the ‘mind game’ when playing with or against Spirit. I don’t actually think there is a mind game. Mind gaming implies that one player is giving out information that forces the other player to make a bad play. While she’s phasing, survivors aren’t getting any information from Spirit. They’re forced to make a guess. That’s not playing a mind game; it’s flipping a coin to see whether or not you take a hit. Oh, and the person flipping the coin can force it to land on heads if they make the right play.
Spirit has an insurmountable advantage while phasing. Audio and collision allow her to collect enough for a hit while rapidly closing distance. Survivors don’t get enough information during her phasing to make an intelligent play against her.
Does she need a nerf? I’m still not really sure. There are a couple loadouts that do counter her. Spine Chill plus Fixated is a new perk combo I’m having success with against her. The more classic counter build that absolutely works is Lithe, Q&Q, DWM, IW. You can compete with her, but it’s going to cost at at least two perk slots. With the current state of the game, can survivors afford to blindly run off-meta perks in order to have a chance against Spirit?
Kind if a long post. I hope this at least respectfully outlines some clear frustrations survivor have with Spirit; regardless of whether or not they’re justified.
Edit: Grammar
Comments
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"The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER."
We already know the reason survivors complain about Spirit is that she is the only killer that cant be 1v1'd and consistently dominates in chases. After she gets nerfed its off to Freddy because he is the only killer that can slow the game down so much, after he gets nerfed its off to Billy because he is the only killer that can pressure gens so well, after he gets nerfed its off to...
That being said its nice that survivors are finally starting to say it instead of the usual mindgames/beads BS.
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She’s not the only one that dominates chases, though. She’s the only one that does so without giving the survivors an opportunity for counter play. You’re not going to loop a good Huntress; but you might be able to bait a couple missed hatches. You’re not going to run loops on Freddy; but you can avoid the dream snares. Billy is eventually going to get Spirit Fury and be able to run up your back for a saw; but you can mind game him at a T L to avoid it.
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My bad quoted the wrong thing so i edited the post. We know Spirit is the only killer that has the clear advantage in a 1v1, its nice that people are finally dropping the mindgames/beads BS and moving onto the real reason.
Survivors want to be able to 1v1 killers while killers dont want 4 survivors to be able to 1v1 them. Thats the root of the issue and the devs will side with survivors.
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I really tried hard to not make this another ‘Survivors vs. Killers’ meme. Seems like that’s where it‘a going though.
Edit: Posting on mobile ughhhh
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Guess not but i do appreciate you giving the real reason instead of side stepping with "Spirit OP cuz prayer beads!" We are now one step closer to a real conversation, neat.
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I think they legitimately can afford to run two perks to counter spirit, especially considering IW is great against nearly every killer, not just spirit. But of course, they shouldn't have to, and having to run meta builds that shut down a killer's power entirely is no fun for either party.
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She doesn't have built in counters your very right, she cant be countered by one thing, juke or mindgame. You have to play each spirit like their a completely different killer to the last, you cant have a one and done counter to every single one, you as survivor need to imagine your the spirit or bait her into imagining where you are.
That comment is correct but I can say the same thing about killers that arent spirit ot nurse, pallets and loops have no legitimate "counter play" you cannot use the same technique on every survivor, you have to invent your own or adapt for the survivor your facing and bait them into a mistake. Survivors skill for the most part decides chases versus these killers, they need the survivor to make a mistake, which makes them the power role by definition. But when this is reversed on the survivors and they have to make the killer make a mistake suddenly this system is wrong and there needs to be a change.
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People act like nurse just doesn't exist after the nerf. She's still an amazing killer with the ability to turn pallets, loops, and windows into a mere trifle, when they represent a substantial obstacle to other killers. It's just now she requires a modicum of technical skill, when before she was accessible and effective to every braindead chimp that picked her up. This is a good thing for a killer imo, brutally effective in skilled hands. Similar to ghostface but more so. Other killers like Billy and Freddy are also very powerful, but perhaps a little easier and more challenging in different ways. Spirit though, I think is way too easy and way too effective.
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I guess i do know you better than you know yourself, then.
Im also not saying anything about OP wanting a nerf (aside from the slippy slope thing i mentioned) im pointing out that we are finally moving past the mindgames/beads excuse and finally moving onto the real reason, which is her domination at 1v1s. Which is about time if we want a genuine conversation about Spirit, not just generic complaints from survivors and 'get gud' from killers.
My personal opinion on the matter is unless Spirit gets a fairly sizable rework there is no way to get her to a level that survivors will accept without huge nerfs. I genuinely dont believe her mindgames/beads are the problem (if you couldnt tell lol) its that during a chase her invisibility and huge speed boost is very very hard to deal with. Survivors like being in control of the match and Spirit doesnt let them.
@Lufanati I wouldnt mind raising Spirit's skill cap but i feel like the devs will just remove beads and nerf her. Also quick question, should Spirit get nerfed do you believe survivors will stop complaining about killers or not?
Post edited by Quol on3 -
Like many other issues in this vein, the issue doesn't stem from the power of the killer, but from the strategy of the survivor.
YOU don't think there's no counterplay, but that's just because you don't have a good strategy against her.
Spirit is my 2nd main and at high ranks I'm often outplayed by good survivors. They have strategies that work against the spirit that you simply haven't thought of or refuse to utilize.
If you have a hard time winning a mindgame at a loop, maybe you should abandon the loop in a way that forces the spirit to phase or run.
Utilize perks that make avoiding her easier as well as perks that make it easier to throw her in the wrong direction because you're invisible when she phases.
There are things you can do. Perhaps you're not skilled enough yet, but with practice you can beat a spirit.
If you're worried about losing perks just to take care of one issue, welcome to the killer reality.
keys - franklins
rush - ruin
pallet loops - specific killers - spirit fury - enduring
jungle gyms - bamboozle
those are the ones that come to me first.
If survivors develop skill they won't need killers to be nerfed to stand a chance.
If killers continue to be nerfed, killer players will get better and adapt while your skill level remains stagnant and you beg for more nerfs later.
Just wait until the worse killers are balanced towards the middle. You'll find yourself at a skill based disadvantage regardless of the killer you face.
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Part of my point is that if Spirit plays well she doesn’t need to imagine where you are; she KNOWS.
Pallets and loops do have counter play from the Killer side. Moon walking, other red stain manipulation, bloodlusting an unsafe pallet, several killer powers. I don’t think you’re making a fair comparison.
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She actually doesnt, she cant be sure which side of a window/pallet your on if and I mean if you make yourself hard to predict, and the counters you listed will not work 100% just like the spirit counters I can list, faking vaulting a pallet, reverse dropping a pallet on the side the spirit saw you on, fast vaulting into a backtrack also vault, running away then vaulting the window again or the counter to every killer in the game, rush the insane gen speed and keep yourselves split up.
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This would be fine if I knew it was spirit BEFORE the match. Perks are not counterplay since you dont know what killer it is plain and simple. IW is a good stealth perk, but stealth doesn't do much rn, so unless its a spirit there's no great reason to run it over meta perks. People seem to forget counterplay means seeing something THEN countering it. Not the other way around.
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The only thing that holds Spirit back from being impossible to handle is her weakness to big maps. She can't afford to use her power fully for map pressure and still perform as well as she does in chases, at least not without add-ons dedicated to that.
However, her problem isn't her power level. It's the same problem that plagued old Legion, but to a lesser degree. The main thing that makes DBD fun is the chases, and the skill expression involved in both sides. Aside from overbearing, overly safe loops, that's the best thing about this game. Chases involving the Spirit require a good headphone and that's it. The only way you're pulling that to your favor is if she misplays or you brought 3 perks to handle her specifically, and once she knows you have them your advantage is almost gone.
Chases should ultimately be in the killers' favor, of course, but not to the extent that Spirit controls them. She doesn't even have to be nerfed. Just move some of her power away from chases and into map pressure and she'd be A LOT better to face.
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Did you miss the paragraph where I acknowledged there are legitimate ways to give yourself a chance against her? One of them being something I‘ve never seen anyone mention.
It really seems like you didn’t read the post carefully and are going straight into killer defense mode. You could have just written git gud survivor trash; that’s how your post reads.
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stop crying and git gud
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Great reply with a great understanding of what makes this game fun.
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Survivors are too used to being in total control at the majority of loops. Between 3rd person camera, most Killer's hight, and the red stain being seen through walls, Survivors are used to a plethora of information that keeps them from making mistakes. Spirit excels at loops and that's why Survivors hate her.
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Yeah I don't see how people can miss this point honestly. Very few people who've been playing this game for years like hiding, standing still and praying the killer is dumb. There are plenty of killers who manage to be strong without ruining what is fun about the game.
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Inb4 spinechill is meta.
/s
There are four perkslots and seventeen killers. If you need a perk slot out of four to counter a specific killer among seventeen, that killer is op. It’s that easy.
Imagine that, starting tomorrow, Survivors can see who the killer is before the trial starts. Spirit would be fine, right? Because you can choose some perks to counter her! You can now enter a lobby, see the spirit, equip Iron Will, Fixated and Spine Chill and have a good game, right?
Now imagine that same situation against any other killer. You wouldn’t have an easier time, you would just completely destroy everything the killer has.
Wraith, Pig? I’m bringing sprint boost. Trapper? Sabotage and Small Game. Hag? I can finally use my yellow flashlight. Huntress, Nurse? Q&Q, Dance, Lithe and I’m going to play stealth.
Really think about how survivor perks affect other killers and then think about the spirit. Even KNOWING you are going to face her you can’t counter the spirit that hard, no matter what you do.
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A lot of the OP loops have been reworked this past year. I would say there’s a pretty fair balance of survivor and killer friendly loops right now.
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Freddy and Billy won't be touched, Freddy just got reworked so it would be silly to touch him again and as for Billy he's pretty fair, he can still be looped and he only punishes survivors for getting greedy a good survivor that knows when to drop the pallet and utilise the jungle gyms can turn Billy into M1 killer. So there you go, only spirit needs to be looked at.
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Honestly I feel like the complaint about spirit is the thing killers have to deal with when they normally do "mind games" they need to face away from the survivor ie denying themselves information on where the survivor is in order to hide their red light and hope the survivor isn't waiting in a perfectly safe spot that they can see it coming on either side.
Even the op mentions mind games as: one player is giving information that the other makes a mistake in using. What information do killers get when they're mind gaming? Footsteps (barely audible), grunts of pain if injured + running iron will (sound familiar?) and sight. If you're hiding your red light and chase music is loud enough that the killer's footsteps aren't audible: what information exactly are you giving besides "you're going either left or right in this jungle gym".
I feel mind gaming is using the LACK of information given to bring in a mistake which is exactly what spirit does by existing. Add in that many loops aren't even mind game-able for more normal killers and you get spirit 'overperforming'.
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I wonder about that, call it a hunch but i have a feeling should Spirit get nerfed survivors wont go "Well now we can enjoy the game in peace" but rather move onto another killer they have an issue with.
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she doesn't need a nerf, here is HOW YOU COUNTER SPIRIT, LOOP HER LIKE A M2 KILLER NOT A M1 killer. notice when she is phasing THERE IS TELLS, when she is phasing at a loop with the pallet down JUST WALK AWAY. I can NOT tell you how many times I have juked and out played spirit by just walking away, not running WALKING until she is out of phase and notices you have walked away, not only have you
1 gained distance on the spirit
2 spirits power is on CD and can not be used to catch up to you
3 that pallet is still there for you or other to use later
4 you gain more distance that a regular killer because out side of her power spirit is still a 110% movement speed killer so she will be SLOW to catch up giving you ample time to get to another loop and repeat
those who loop her like a M1 killer will get dominated, destroyed, and killed then they will complain instead of adapting, they use the same strategy against 90% of the killer roster but it doesn't work against spirit and survivors cant adjust so they complain instead
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The problem with your argument about perks is the killer ones work against all survivors. By which I mean Bamboozle will give the same value against every survivor. Running two or three perks to counter one killer is not the same thing.
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Two of my last games were spirit with prayer beads/dirty Watanabe or whatever the speed boost is called. Rank 6. PS4. Game one, I got utterly destroyed. I got a few hooks but all 4 escaped. They were an excellent team. It was fine.
Game two. Same build. Opposite result. One gen was done by the end, none others had any progress. the last two people gave up on their death hooks and just let me kill them because there was no point. It was fine.
Same player and killer. Totally different results because of survivor skill level. Git gud.
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This is true.
This also means the killer has to deal with 16 perks. Not 4.
However the killer is also forced to do their job through those 16 perks with only 4 perks available. Those 4 killer perks HAVE to be able to have the same value against all survivors.
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Nope, didn't miss it.
I'm glad you read the entire thing and I didn't need a tldr at the end for you to get it ;)
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Killer perks aren't meant to counter survivor perks. They're meant to allow a certain play style/build or to cover your weaknesses as a killer. If for example I'm weak in chases as a killer. I'm going to bring perks that help to cover that weakness. Same if I need setup time. I'll bring ruin. Maybe corrupt intervention as well.
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I genuinely don't get how people think spirit is healthy for the game. She has 0 counterplay. I love her to death, but I can't play her anymore. She is 0 fun to go against. Dominating every chase shouldn't be fun for you, it's a PVP game. You all seem to forget this, the other play SHOULD BE ABLE TO OUTPLAY YOU.
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This might be bias on my part, but even though I think Spirit does need some nerfs, it is possible to outplay her. In my experience playing Survivor at least. And no, it's not really about a guessing game. It's more on what you read what the player who plays the Spirit does.
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Spirit honestly doesn't need a nerf... if anything they could just add an audio clue to her whereabouts while in her phase-walk and/or make grass and corn shift when she walks through them.
people who have trouble with her really just need to learn how to mindgame better... and I say that knowing that a good spirit will stomp me quite often.
it's not a coin-toss stacked in her favor, she still has to use information provided to make an educated guess... I will admit that survivors could use a little more information to help even the odds a bit though.
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Because they aren't thinking about the other person.
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It depends on what your perspective is.
It can be said that all healing perks counter each other, all gen perks counter each other.
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Fair enough.
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I've found that method is too inconsistent. If they were faking the phase they can just see where you are walking and phase there with certainty of where you went making it a 50/50. You can get better odds than that.
The most consistent way I've found to juke the Spirit at a pallet after dropping it is:
Step 1 - Run directly away from the pallet
Step 2 - After about 2 seconds of running double back and vault the pallet. Veer off to one side slightly when doubling back
Step 3 - IMMEDIATELY slow vault back
Step 4 - Run away for a bit again
Step 5 - Walk out of LoS
The exact timing depends on the length of the loop
From the Spirit's PoV:
1: She sees you running. This forces her to make a snap decision so she can't stand still and wait for you to make your move. She will almost always phase.
2: By the time she actually gets around the loop you'll be at the pallet again and can vault it
3: Since she heard you vault the pallet she'll double back around to that side of the pallet
4: By the time she gets there you'll have gotten back to the other side of the pallet. Since she thinks you are still at the other side of the pallet AND that the scratchmarks you are now running over to reach a hiding spot were from your initial juke, that gives you a good chance of losing her entirely
Do note that this won't work more than maybe twice against a decent Spirit, so be sure to switch it up throughout a match. But that kind of thing is a personal favorite of mine since it doesn't fall victim to the normal 50/50 at pallet loops.
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You're not outplaying the spirit, you're simply winning the coin toss.
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If you observe the killer playing her, you tend to pick up how they play Spirit. What tactics they use, how they move around during Phasing. Stuff like that.
You base your movement around how they play. Of course I'm not saying this is obvious, which is why I still think she needs some nerfs.
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red stain doesnt go through walls anymore with the newest engine update
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You guys remember the vanilla experiment? Where killers and survivors were forced to run no perks and add ons? Tell me the counterplay of spirit now... We need to look at the base kit of each killer, with no add ons, and look at the plain base kit of a survivor with no perks and items.
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don't forget that in my post I said that I look at the details to know when she is phasing, so there is no fake out mindgame that happens
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iron will makes hardly any difference with most killers. most people don't use it cos they know this. nobody goes oh i wonder if spirit is playing next, i best put iw on.
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So if you make the wrong read you take a hit, right? Please tell me how it makes any difference when I substitute the word ‘guess’ for the word ‘read’.
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if spirit did get slightly nerfed so survivors had some sort of counter play, i think spirit would be the favorite killer, to play against. she has so much potential! 👻😊
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I think re-adding the directional audio when she’s phasing would be a good place to start.
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Because reading the player is a better mindset than "guessing" the player.
Especially if you're in an SWF.
But again, I don't disagree that we need to make her phasing more obvious.
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I quite enjoy going against spirit (if I am using Iron Will). If I'm not, spirit is a nightmare to play against. When I'm playing as spirit and the survivors don't have Iron Will it really is like shooting fish in a barrel. I don't know what can be done about that, but Iron Will will definitely be staying in my build.
Plus, obviously prayer beads needs to be changed. Anyone who disagrees with that shouldn't be able to voice their opinion.
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Spirit does have counterplay. I issue is her counter (playing immerse)isn’t very effective. I think they should leave Spirit alone a buff perks like Calm Spirit, Lightweight, and Premonition. I run Iron Will + Urban Evasion most of the time and even that can be better than most people think against Spirit.
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I can agree. That's where my Spine Chill + Fixated idea came from; just avoid getting into a chase with her as much as possible.
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