The only Spirit discussion that matters
Everyone is fighting over the Spirit. Is she balanced? Over powered? Fun? Not fun? Does she have counter play?
At the end of the day all this arguing is moot. BHVR has already stated that their data shows she is over performing and that changes are coming. Whatever we think about Spirit in her current state doesn't matter. The data is telling the devs she needs to be changed, meaning that she likely would have received changes even if literally no one complained about her.
Whether you believe she is or isn't in need of a change at this point is irrelevant. Trying to prove anything to anyone is irrelevant (especially since no one seems willing to compromise or even acknowledge they could be wrong). Even if somehow everyone on one side jumped ship to the other, it won't make any difference because she will still be changed. The only difference our opinions make at the end of the day is how expedient the devs are with the changes. Had no one ever complained, it would still happen just probably not as quickly.
The fighting needs to stop. We need to turn our attention to BHVR and get them to be more transparent about the situation. We need to know exactly what their telemetry shows. We need to know what issues THEY have identified in regards to the Spirit. We need to know what their goals are for the future of the character. Too often they don't inform us of their plans until the changes have already been made, at which point our opinions don't matter. Things will happen as they see fit, and the only hope we have is to make slight suggestions here and there.
I don't want a repeat of Nurse or Legion or MOM (though IMO Nurse changes were good but I digress). I want the devs to openly discuss this with us because this is a seriously important issues. We, as a community, need to put our foot down and say "TELL US" because if we don't and continue to argue the end result will (probably) be bad. Now I'm not trying to completely ######### on the devs here. They did an amazing job with Freddy and DS, in my opinion. But we had no idea what they were planning until it was already time for the relaunch. They even said they are surprised by our reactions sometimes. Well if you guys were more open with us about your plans, you wouldn't be so surprised and everyone gets a better deal (including you).
I'm not asking the devs to give us specific details about what they intend to do. I'm asking them to keep us in the loop so they don't go off the rails. I understand 1000% why it is generally a bad idea to give behind-the-scenes info like this in game dev, but at this point for this topic I think it would be more beneficial than harmful.
I don't care what you think about Spirit in her current state. Please don't come in here with those arguments. I'm honestly done with it. We need unity here, and we need the devs to support the community going forward with this issue.
@Peanits @not_queen @McLean
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Thanks! someone that understand the situation!
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To be perfectly honest, I am right there with you. It just feels like this forum has gotten much more toxic than it already is thanks to this spirited debate.
It's gotten to the point where I can't really say I am comfortable posting on this forum for a while.
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Agreed. I think the majority of people feel Spirit needs some slight, emphasis on slight tweaks. Some will call for hard nerfs. Others feel she's perfect as is. I think these people are the outliers. I personally have no particular issue with her. But as they are going to make changes. I really want BHVR to approach this very carefully.
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Players have already pointed out (some in great detail) what the problems/solutions are though.
The problem is some people fail to read them.
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I know that whatever we say doesnt matter. However, just accepting changes blindly isnt something you should do. This change is coming from the very Devs that butchered Legion without proper buffs (still waiting...), created old MoM, nerfed old Freddy, made it so that getting blinded or stunned at any point during pick-up would force Survivors to be dropped, and several other examples.
They have said they have learned, and they definitely have. But what is stopping them from making more mistakes? We are all humans after all. Some people consider this another mistake, others not. I see nothing wrong with such discussions. Sure, namecalling and heated arguments are bad, but as long as it doesnt reach that point, why is it so bad?
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I don't disagree with you but at the moment a lot of the Spirit Threads are just the same thing, bonus points if ScottJund joins the conversation.
That isn't really constructive, that's just mindless bickering.
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Logically. ANY popular topic will always turn out the same; the same arguments over and over. This isnt just DbD, or this forum board. Its life. When a big divisive topic appears (a certain electoral candidate, social movement, cats vs dogs, etc), humans will want to discuss the same thing over and over again, with the same points in favour and against.
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Of course it is, but when something is discussed to the point where it's becoming ad nauseum it stops being a discussion. Just white noise.
I know I am not the only one sick of hearing about Spirit Nerfs or that Spirit is fine. I know we can't trust BHVR completely to not ######### up the changes they are inevitably going to do with Spirit.
But I also know that just discussing the same point over and over won't change that. So what's the point? At this point it is, like I said, mindless bickering.
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I get your point and it's a valid one. However, based on previous years of feedback on PTB's and the results that came from it our voices feel quite wasted in that regard. I also think DS is still in a pretty unhealthy state.
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When was the last spirit change that wasn't a bug fix, and why is this suddenly a discussion now? (Hint: it was november of last year, and its because the strongest killer got nerfed, so all the meta players moved to her). If she's a problem, why wasn't she nerfed 6 months ago?
When she gets nerfed, they're just going to cycle to the next strongest killer, who will then be the over performer ad infinitum.
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I say we all throw every bubba match we’re in let’s make him over preform.
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1) It doesn't matter what the stated problems are, the devs already made up their minds about changing Spirit independent of player complaints.
2) The "solutions" I have read thus far are not good solutions. They all revolve around basically giving Spirit a giant neon sign above her head that says "I AM PHASE WALKING NOW". That's not a solution. Good players do not make good game designers. Furthermore, the devs are not going to take a single person solution verbatim, first because of legal reasons and second because that's not how you solve these problems. You solve them through testing and iteration. What sounds good on paper may end up being horrible in practice and vice versa. I'd be scared to see what the game was like if anyone on the forums had a say in the game's design.
I'm actually suggesting that we DO NOT accept the changes blindly. Every change to every perk/killer thus far has been blindly accepted because we are not privy to BHVR's plans. We know literally nothing about what will happen until it happens, at which point our concerns are limited to minor changes to something that will happen regardless of what we think.
I'm saying we NEED more transparency from the devs in this situation because of how divisive it is.
Hence why I ask to see the data that shows her over performing, what issues THEY have identified, and what THEIR goals are when it comes to Spirit changes. The community needs to be a part of this process or it will be the same issues over and over again.
It's wasted because the devs do things independent of the community. We know nothing about what they were planning for anything until it happens. If we were at least given some transparency we could voice our concerns long before they implement something that we will end up not liking. They said themselves they are sometimes surprised by our reactions. Well that wouldn't happen if we were given more information before major sweeping changes were put into the game.
I'm not asking for them to tell us everything, just the important things so we can voice our concerns BEFORE it is too late to go back.
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Ah I see. Maybe if we got more heads up than usual they may be more willing to make changes we ask for as now they'd actually have more time unlike coming out of a PTB where they've basically already set it in stone aside from small numbers. That's fair.
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Alls I'm going to say is that if bhvr prioritizes spirit over the killers in need itll give bad impression.... theyd better give help before another nerf
Otherwise my wallet will close... I see multiple skins and rift I'd like to buy but bad business can turn that off..
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Doc is getting changed first
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I'd really like that dude.... it didn't seem clear while watching the stream...
Heres to Herman getting TLC ?
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That’s nice and all, but you can’t simply ask people to swipe their frustration under the rug while something they enjoy is destroyed.
I agree on the part about the devs keeping us in the loop, the nurse add on changes were welcomed but then they changed the base kit with little warning, which brought ire out of most killer mains.
They seem to be incapable of nerfing something within a reason, everything they nerf becomes pretty much useless. Hopefully they listen to reasonable feedback and let us know their plans.
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Where did the devs say that they have already made up their minds about what changes the Spirit needs? Where are you getting this information?
Just because players aren't designers and give opinions and suggestions doesn't mean the devs are going to take them for granted either. That's the whole point of the forums.
I haven't even seen a dev actually even say they are looking at Spirit, only thing I've seen is Peanits agreeing that standing on the other side of the pallet is not a skill. That's about it.
I think the only Spirit thread that matters is the one where people are civil and respectful to each other, and can have a healthy discussion. Not one where there is more bickering or ones where they are trying to silence people.
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Definitely agree. She only needs a slight tweak to give some slim opportunity for counterplay.
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They confirmed that she is getting some changes but they haven't said anything more about it.
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Thanks for sharing, I did not know about this post.
I still think it's important that people provide feedback, even if the devs themselves know what she needs, doesn't mean they should simply ignore suggestions.
Many suggestions (they have admitted) have come from players themselves.
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I think peanits also said that they are going to talk about her in the next developer update so hopefully we will have more information then.
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It doesn't matter what we say, Nurse mains already told them what they should've changed at her ( nerf her range and extra blinks add-ons and increase her fatigue duration with 1 second and decrease a little bit her lunge post blink to add more counter play for survivors ).
What they did ? Add a cooldown that completely kills her on big maps and give her 3 "speed limiters" as add-ons.
So I am sure our opinion won't matter when it comes to Spirit's changes.
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Agree.
One important point is: which data the dev are looking at and How they interpret it - yes, all data need to be interpreted and it makes a huge difference in the outcome decision.
Let us know why they say a rework is needed, and what will impact.
Not like nurse, which should have just been an addon rework which then became a rework of her base power. Not again, BHVR
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You know after nurse got nerfed a lot of people complained about an increase in toxic killers (im on xbox, nurse already sucked so her getting nerfed was a joke here) I think they're going to nerf Spirit too hard (Actually im pretty positive that's whats going to happen since like nurse the main complaints are for her add-ons and we know that's not all that's being touched) and then you'll have an increase of salty killers being toxic, moving on to the next strongest killer and repeating the process over again. The proof of that is people are already talking about who's gonna get nerfed next.
So in that sense it actually doesn't matter what the devs do because this is an extremely toxic and partisan community and nerfing her is only adding fuel to a fire because because the killer side is not only the weaker of the two but doesn't have many viable killers at high ranks to consistently win. You could make the argument that you're not supposed to consistently win as killer but you're also then making the argument you should consistently win as survivor which could even be true, but then they should acknowledge that that is their intention.
If they actually wanted to balance the game to be balanced then they're going about it backwards, nerfing all viable options as killer and then MAYBE, hopefully buffing the weaker killers. But because they want to keep nerfing the top tier their chasing their tails because again this community is toxic and petty, if they aren't planning to nerf an "overproformering" killer while low tiers aren't buffed then it might be because everyone gave up or just de ranked and ruin the game for survivors who aren't optimal.
On the bright side Freddy buff and battlepass are nice....ish. Plus some EZ survivor games are in the future
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It’s quite funny reading they balance around 2 die 2 escape when’s killers can barely pip with all 4 kills.
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I hope this is true. We need transparency here. This is a very divisive issue, more so than I think any other issue in the past. Just look at the forums and Twitter and Reddit. It's a mess.
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Something we can agree on. The devs need to share data with us so we know what they are basing their decisions on.
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Well, that's a problem with the horrible ranking system since they always said that they were trying to balance around 2 kills and 2 escapes.
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Yes, and we need to find out other information too. I've had a lot of Spirit games (and some as survivor) were survivors just purposely die on first hook. They basically DC without actually DC'ing and I'd like to know if the devs filter out games where survivors died on first hook or within 2 minutes (because IDC how good of a killer you are, no survivor should be dead that quickly, it means they gave up on the hook).
I feel like she wouldn't be over performing if you account for these games.
I'm also curious as to how much she is over performing. If she's only beating the next best killer by a small margin, that's kind of important to know. It means she doesn't actually need changes as bad as people claim.
Regardless the devs have already decided she will be changed. I want them to be transparent in this process. We need to have an idea of what direction they are planning to go so that, before they start walking the path we can say "no not that way".
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