Why are they changing The Spirit?
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once upon a time the # of kills was how it was determined. It didn't work. It wasn't fun for survivors because the killers played the game "wrong". They played competitively and played to kill. So they changed it.
The on going war between survivors and killers is largely due to both sides misconception that you can win. You can't and don't win, at least not according to the game itself. You survive or die. Or you disappoint the entity or are a brutal, ruthless or merciless killer.
the implication that a 3 and 4ks are wins for the killer are all self imposed.
There are currently 2 problems with the system that cause the killers the pain they are currently in.
1) The killer emblems are too dependent on the way the survivors play, gatekeeper, malicious and chaser. Gatekeeper is the worst offender, since there is really nothing you can do to stop survivors from finishing their first gen in the first min to 30 secs of play.
The game is designed such that its super common by the 1st hook to have the survivors done with 2 gens. I could go into loads of detail on this but imo its a pretty obvious problem and has earned the name "gen rush". So even in games where the killer PLAYS the way that BHVR wants them to, they still can't really receive the "merciless" state unless the survivors cooperate.
Gatekeeper should be changed so the vast majority of the points for the emblem are tied to the games duration, instead of the # of gens remaining. Rather then 5 for each min that generators are unfinished it should be changed to 20. And unfinished generators at matches end should be worth 5 each. This way, if the match lasts for 9 mins with all gens uncompleted you'd get iri.
Malicious suffers less so, but survivors getting off your shoulder via wiggle or survivors healing, again, these are often 100% out of your control, as such they shouldn't be counted as penalties imo. Dc's current another huge hole in malicious. Since you lose the hook state points.
Chaser loss of points for being within 8 or 16 of a hooked survivor is just dumb. Top tier killers don't hook camp and punishing killers for being near the hook doesn't stop the ones that do. It just, again, creates situations where the killer, without any significant control will lose points without good reason. I find a survivor and end up getting looped within 16 meters of the hooked survivor. Not my fault and to suggest I should be forced to abandoned that just if I want the points is just dumb.The reality is this situation is actual fun for the survivors. Unhooking while the killer is near is a rush and dangerous. If the killer decides to change targets and tunnel they you've really messed up.
The killer currently is essential at the mercy of the survivors for the game to go long enough for him to be effective.
I'm not whining about it, so don't read it that way. Its just the factual way the game is currently designed based on the arbitrary determination of the what the developers consider good play by the killer.
2) The survivors points and sense of fun is too tightly coupled with survival because the expectation of survival is too high. And conversely the pipping system does not reward them for extending the game. But in the higher ranks simple by making ranking up harder they have shown to a degree that it is critical that you DO extend the game if you want the double and even single pip. By finishing the generators too quickly they could easily depip or safety. Which is effectively a loss.
If the points for survival were changed to be worth only 500 and the survival emblem was not linked to escape, but instead linked to the duration of time spent in the match (just like gatekeeper), then you'd see a massive change in the game in general.
Without changing a single other aspect of the game, if a Iridescent survival was represented by a 11+ min game with at least 1 generator remaining. Since if you let them count after the last gen was done then'd you'd get abuse scenarios with survivors just finishing the gens and then hiding.
Bonus) Personally I also believe ranks should be hidden and the pips themselves should only indicate your performance as rated by BHVRs metrics, until such a time they introduce a ranked mode and acknowledge a side as a winner and a side as a loser.
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Most spirit players can get 3k-4k easily.
i got a 4K my first game with no addons or perks. But no she’s not overperforming at all. Totally. Lolol
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This is true
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She's getting changed for the same reason as nurse, her add ons.
You'll always have salty survivor complaining that every killer is OP but just like with nurse there is a legitimate problem....but also like with nurse i think we all know that they're going to "fix" more than what was asked for
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If your not confident in your reads against any killer then you deserve to lose for playing badly at the chase game. You should need to play well to win against a skilled killer. Escaping should be more of a rare occurrence. Tru3 states this as a problem with the mindset. I'm not sure what separate queue is suppose to accomplish, In general all the killers should be able to handle their own regardless for who their opponent is. Obviously, this isn't exactly the case. part of the reason being is that a lot of the killer powers have near crippling drawbacks to their ability disabling them from creating strategic play style to winning a match. The few that have reliable power with least drawbacks have the greatest chance of winning a match(In my opinion).
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If that were the case, then Legion shouldn't have been nerfed. :)
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I'm sure there were people saying she was fair and balanced; I'm not doubting that at all. I'm saying that there were people who thought otherwise-- mostly PC players I'm guessing.
The reason why I brought up Nurse and Billy is because getting good results with the Spirit is far easier. I know my success rate with her is higher than it should be and I base this on how much more challenging it was to learn how to snap a chainsaw hit around corners and loops instead of using M1.
You're right, she hasn't become better. As time passed, people just realized how strong she was, and there was a breaking point.. somewhen. Like I said, I've been hearing about her being OP for a while now. It was just a matter of time before it all boiled over.
As far as why survivors don't learn how to play against her, I don't know. Maybe it's too much trouble for a casual mindset.
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I mean, I played Spirit when I first bought her(not long ago) and managed to get like 4 gen grabs in one game. I had an Ash literally gen tapping(funniest ######### ever), and I didn't even have prayer beads(in fact I had no addons and only one perk because I like to level up killers while playing them). I just acted like I was in a chase near a gen, phased out, and boom, walked around until I bumped into a survivor on a gen and got him on my arms. Every game I've played her I've gotten at least one gen grab. That said I haven't been leveling her lately as I've been playing more Myers when I play killer.
This is why I think collision in phasing needs to go.
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Really good spirits will moonwalk to counter spine chill
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My problem with the idea of overperforming comes down to this: The devs want two kills for killer and two survivors to escape. The problem with this is the emblems system. It is unlikely for a killer to pip only sacrificing two survivors. It is likely if a survivor escapes they will pip. Change how that works for killers and I might believe the devs are doing this for balance reasons. As it stands now, so many killers need buffs to even get to that performing level at high ranks. It seems as usual BHVR would prefer to cater to the survivors rather then try to make this game as what I feel it should be. The one should be strong, but they are one. The many are weak, but they are many. Instead it is the many who are strong, and the one who is weak.
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We honestly don't know how they gather their data.
Do DCs count as kills?
If someone DCs and the Spirit kills the remaining three survivors, do they count that as a 4K or 3K?
What happens if three DCs and one get sacrificed? Is that a 4K or 1K?
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4ked yesterday with wraith in red ranks, no perks or addons equipped. Must be overperforming, nerf him.
Made several 4man escapes, nerf survivors too? Gotta love your logic.
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Would love to see that lol
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I mean, you can't because she's phasing so ?
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Hello, I had to register to comment this. If 2K is the target, then the emblem system needs significant rework! Because i had plenty games where i got 3 kills (not 2!) and still depip/black pip... by the way i never camp or tunnel, so it is always 10 min+ game where i get 25k+ bloodpoints and still depip! Its ridiculous... and also very demotivating. And definetly NOT fun ?
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I know, but I'm curious if someone tried this ?
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The problem with Spirit is that her counterplay is unreliable and based on guesswork. There's no surefire way to avoid taking a hit from her when she uses her power.
When you're playing against Hillbilly, you can avoid being hit by his chainsaw if you focus on breaking line of sight with him and forcing him to make tight turns. He'll probably still get you eventually, but not before you burn through some pallets or Bloodlust comes into play.
When you play against Huntress, it's a similar story. If you break line of sight with her (Or if you're in an open area, don't run in a straight line), you can dodge a lot of her hatchet throws and extend the chase time significantly.
But against Spirit, there's no sure way to avoid taking a hit when she phases. If you equip Iron Will, Spine Chill and Fixated, then create a misleading trail of scratch marks for her to follow, there's no guarantee that you won't take a hit. The Spirit might bump into you while phasing, or predict the trick, or hear your footsteps, or hear your breathing with Stridor, or make a lucky guess, or just do a fake-out. No matter how much you try to outplay her, there's always a good chance that she'll hit you anyway.
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You shouldn't expect to 4k every match. Just like how you shouldn't expect to escape every match.
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Make prayer beads ultra rare and the Father's glasses very rare. That will alleviate a lot of issues. I think maybe survivors are underperforming. The current pip system and matchmaking certainly don't help that situation. I'm a red rank survivor and I know that I have no business being there. I'm, in reality, on the skill level of a low purple at best. Also, I play swf with a few newer/less skilled players most of the time. My main friends are a rank 13, 12 and 17 and that definitely skews the stats on an overperforming killer. I'm not saying matchmaking is broken but it certainly doesn't help when determining the efficiency of a killer.
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These compalints have been here since she launched. Youre only seeing the em bow because they arent getting drowned out by nurse and legion posts
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2 kills is a bad metric to balance this game on. Too many times have I seen survivors dominate gens just to throw it away at the end trying to save one person. Also take into account gaps in skill level between players.
Not to mention most of the time two kills two escape at red ranks is either a black pip or a derank.
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Sad part is when u realize they want to balance killers around 2k, but the pipping system demands 4k and better.
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because the devs rather nerf the killer than then fixing the problems. (like punish for DC's, give rewards for ranking up) its easier and less work for them.
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Spirit has 0 feedback to the survivor, and if you think it's because the survivor doesn't know the counterplay to her, take a look at this video where @ScottJund had a friendly matchup with Zubatlel. As most may know, Zubatlel is a great survivor and killer player so player skill is roughly equal in the matchup! 😁🤗
Skip to: 13:29
He also covers Tru3ta1ent's points before 13:29 and explained why they aren't accurate. @ScottJund makes some valid counterpoints on why his points doesn't Spirit.
Also, keep this discussion friendly because at the end of the day, we all just want what's best for the game, that also includes Tru3ta1ent, @ScottJund, and Zubatlel! They are all great people in my opinion, and it's great to see them engage in a high level discussion! 😁🤗
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Thanks for sharing your honest thoughts. We would like to see more support for this. She is not unfair, her power can be misleading a lot. Remove prayer beads and its fine
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I am so f$#$ tired of this nonsense. Spirit doesn't need a nerf. If you want to change something, change her add ons. Even with nurse, all she needed was her add ons reworked. To learn counterplay, you have to actually play both sides. Because Nurse and Spirit don't follow traditional mechanics, everyone cries, whines until the devs bend. It's asinine. Nurse needed her add ons changed, I agree. All of Spirit's add ons are great, and those could be changed, sure. But in NO UNIVERSE does she need her base power altered (I really hope they put Nurse back to her prior base power as well).
People think about Nurse and Spirit in this binary fashion. "But, I run around a small circle and drop pallet. I can't do that, therefore OP!!!!!"
Perhaps if people played Spirit (the ones who gripe about her) and understand (a) she moves at 110% (b) how long it takes to charge her phase (c) how fast she moves in phase (176%), (d) what max base phase distance looks/feels/sounds like (e) how long it takes to recharge (f) how add ons alter each of these (g) etc
This game needs to be balanced around SWFs, and I'm not even talking comms. The fact that you can pre-load into this game with a pre-made 2/3/4 person team is I guess their definition of "asymmetrical." If you balance around that, then take every add on away from every killer. Why doesn't each dev play a game vs. a team of Pug/Jen/etc and throw a money pot in there. Play 10 games and see how many games they even get 1k. Then, have them bottle that feeling and tell the casual player whom plays killer "see how fun this is!"
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No we survivor mains are awesome sauce and never do anything wrong. We all play like esport pros and if we get hooked it's because the killer is op. Nerd them all!
*And scene*
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Well the idea is that if you want to be high rank, you need to be better than the average. So, no, it's not really sad that they aren't balancing around everyone pipping up, lmao
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Jesus Christ, imagine being this #########.
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You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the point of the target and what it means to "reach" it. They're balancing for the average to be a 2k. Meaning if you get a 2k, your performance was average. Whether or not you deserve a pip, depends on the other emblems.
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Excuse me?
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Nope just making it harder for anyone to find lobbies at red ranks. Spirit or not the plan is to do a 4k and better for pipping at red ranks, but to be balanced around a 2k means it should be near impossible for anyone based in the opinions of the Devs. So more then the average player cant effectively play without Ruin let alone pip without it.
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So legion?
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Can the community have this supposed data? If not, we're left in the dark wondering... Well wondering why Spirit is getting changed when people find her completely fine (from what I see,quite a majority see her as fine)
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