2 kills 2 escape balance is BAD
Comments
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While I agree that 2k average isn't exactly optimal I don't agree that any of this is a mark against it.
If you want a 2k average then if you 2k'd you did average.
Compare that to a fighting game. Obviously the overall winrate is 50/50 (before you've taken into account anything like characters/maps/player skill ect) so that means you will win 50% of the time.
That however does not mean that you did good if you get that average result, which is a draw. In fact draws in fighting games are extremely rare, yet they are still the average result. You don't win if you draw.
It's the same deal here. A 2k is 50% of the way to your goal. You still have 50% of the way to go. It may be the average result but that's only because the average player loses half the time and wins the other half.
The actual reason why I don't like the 2k balance thing is that other detail. Specifically that the "draws" need to be extremely rare. In a fighting game that's fine since winning losing and drawing or whatever happen instantaneous at the end. But in DBD you can 2k half way into the match, and if an overall 2k is extremely rare then that means when that 2nd Survivor dies the remaining survivors are nearly guaranteed to die. Not only that but even just 1 death would guarantee the remaining 3 die too.
You can actually somewhat see the effects of this in practice and it's a big part of why tunneling is so prevalent.
Of course if you set the Kill rate goal too high you have the opposite effect, where your teammates become more of a hindrance and your best chance of escape is the hatch right from the start.
Somewhere between the 2 extremes would be best. I've suggested 2.7k as my own ideal however any number between 2 and 3.2 can in theory be balanced. Numbers above 3.2 are always Killer sided no matter what and numbers bellow 2 are always Survivor sided no matter what, so only numbers within that range can be used as viable balance targets.
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No. Escaping should be considered a win and thus be the equivalent to the Killer sacrificing all 4 Survivors period.
A perfect would be iridescent unbroken where you aren't even downed.
Killers wincon isn't to keep all gens up, so a comparison to escaping is unfair in terms of balancing ideal statistics.
Killers wincon IS to Kill the Survivors. So using THAT is absolutely a fair comparison in terms of balancing statistics.
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BUT the thing is balance to BHVR is 2 kills 2 escape anything more and you are "overperforming"
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Average.
A 4k and then a 0k is a 2k average.
Winning is always above average in a perfectly balanced game, regardless of what the wincons and team sizes actually are.
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You are confusing average with mode.
a 2k average does not mean most games are 2k. That would be the mode.
Average just means the sum of all kills over the number of games is 2
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Most of my de-pips in Red Rank Survivor come from being sacrificed, and most of my pips come from escaping.
On occasion, I will still pip when i've been sacrificed, and also de-pip when I've escaped, or atleast black-pipped.
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Finally someone not afraid to say that luck plays a massive factor in this game. Killers in their current state were never meant to make it to red ranks, but they do anyway because of good luck. That's why when I'm in red ranks, I can get a 4k in one match and have 3 or 4 escape in the next. Inconsistency to that extent can only be justified by good and bad luck during matches.
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look at this perfectly balanced game
as thanos once said
"perfectly balanced as all things should be" "this, this puts a smile on my face"
/s
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yet in red ranks a 4k can still mean depip/black pip. even 3k's can be black pip. best case scenario of a 2k is a black pip. if 2k is average and is the framework for balancing, something needs to change, either the emblem system or the framework for what is considered balance
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That's a different scenario.
You claimed that 2k black pip is a problem given a 2k average goal.
This is false. You should not be pipping from a 2k.
While yes the framework is problematic, this is not one of the problems.
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If you depip in a 2k, you did not get enough chase or hooks more than likely. That is usually a result of hard camping or tunneling. I've had plenty of matches where all 4 get away and I don't depip. Why? Lots of chases, 7 to 8 hooks, several kicks, nearly every pallet broken, multiple survivors dropped, but not hooked. It's called pressuring the map and knowing when to drop a chase in order to clear a gen.
No doubt that survivors are very powerful in SWF at red ranks, but good killers average 2k vs them. Sorry, but if I can avg 2k a match with Trapper, then it is not impossible.
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Lorewise, the Entity feeds off the hope of survivors. Do you know what gives them hope?
Escapes. Any moment the survivor thought they were gonna escape gives them hope. Which grows inside the survivor and is then harvested by the entity while on the meathook.
That's why Billy can't get lots of Chaser emblems because he didn't build the survivor's hope to feed the Entity.
So play for the fun of both sides. Give them hope of escape, and dash it at the end.
Feed the Entity.
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I think setting how players rank up based on blood points would be a mistake.
I still think the emblems system has value but the starting values need tweaking. Maybe a rework of the points assigned for different things.
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Except that's not how it is. You're also missing Brutality, Deviousness, and Hunter.
If you get gen rushed beyond belief and get two kills at EGC, you're likely going to depip. However, if you're out and about hooking left and right, practically everywhere and anywhere, but you two hook all of them and they all escape, you can safely assume a blackpip.
The emblems earned are dumb (such as the gen protector, which is under very little of your control) but the point system has save plenty of butts.
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are we playing the same game? I frequently de-pip with 3 kills!
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Oh I'm quite used to it, believe me, Legion was a good example.
I understand the concept of people on the forums saying really brainless things, yes.
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Yeah, but some people really mean it.
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Lmao, he openly admitted to pipping with 2ks... so green/yellow ranks?
Yikes do some people even understand the mechanics behind this game.
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Never said “pip”, my comment says I rarely “de-pip” from a 2k. It is entirely possible to safety pip with a 2k.
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At red ranks where pipping requires 13 points. A 2 kill 2 escape game would result in a black pip or a depip 9/10 times. In order to advance in this rank you have to, by BHVR's definition of balance, overperform. Thus whatever killer you choose to play will show up on the Devs stats as in need of slight tweaking.
Being that Nurse was the most popular killer at red ranks, she ofcourse would require 3-4k a match to even be there. Because she is hard to play, low rank baby Nurses usually don't perform very well balancing the numbers. But because of being the killer of choice at a rank that requires more than 2k to advance in, she was overperforming and in need
nerfsslight tweaks.Spirit, not requiring to use her power to kill low rank survivors and being effective enough to get over 2k in red ranks to rank up, is next on the chopping block. All because BHVR has two conflicting ideologies.
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Indeed it is. But Mr_K put it pretty good as to why the 2k system isn't going to work
I agree with you, it seems logical and all that until you hit red rank/rank 1, where you HAVE to get a pip (at this point being easily a 3k possibly even 4k for a single pip) to even stay at that rank. By definition the 2k system does not work at the highest level of play, it simply does not provide the incentive or method for a fun game. So many issues at the highest levels of play where they willfully ignore issues because casuals don't experience them, but they'll nerf Nurse who was only good on ONE single platform and ONLY in red ranks... smh.
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The fact that you think Nurse was only good on pc is just wrong. Console has good nurses but she is harder to use.
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I know that there are good Nurses on console, I acknowledge their existence. But they are very far and few between, and the devs have shown she is indeed the single WORST killer on all platforms but PC. After these changes I wonder if her killrate will sink even lower?
I hope every stat about her gets much worse, so that maybe they'll revert it or try a better change. God, almost any suggestion is better than what we got man.
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The issue trying to balance the game on two kills two escape is that matches are not played on even fields.
Ranking System
The ranking system itself isn't a measurement of skill but how much time you put into the game. Anonther being who you are matched against. If you constantly play against bad players you will rank up even if your skill level doesn't reflect that rank. You also have good player stay at lower ranks playing against bad players.
Matchmaking
Matchmaking pairs killers and survivors with varying ranks up to 6 in either direction. In worst case you could have survivors up to 12 ranks apart. A rank 4 killer could potentialy face four rank 10s and vice versa. It is easy to see the outcome of these types of matches.
Why 2k 2 escape?
Because it's easy. If you ignore whats behind your data it's the most logical way of balancing. Devs have said they don't purely look at the escape rate but what else do they have?
Solution?
Individual skill needs to be messured. Either this is something that can be tracked in the background or in a way the player can see. If a player can 4k with every killer then its the player that is good and not the killer they choose. There are systems already out there that measure player skill level that could be adopted. One of those is the Elo rating system that rewards points based on who you face and their score compaired to yours.
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