The Problem with Insidious, and some ideas to help fix it
introduction
Hey! Today, I have something that might peak everyone here... yes... today, we'll be talking about the perk Insidious and why it's in-general a "bad" perk that exists. No, this isn't a rant to change the perk... it's just an explanation as well as a concept that I want to throw out there.
I'd like everyone who reads this to actually give their opinion on the perk itself... your past experiences with it maybe? Or in-general some feedback you feel should be said... anything works.
But enough with the rambling before this turns into a 1 million Paragraph essay again... let's get into it!
Insidious... and why it promotes camping
Now, camping is debatable a "strategy" that a lot of Killers like to use when they're new or in the lower ranks. While you rarely see it in Purple and Red Ranks... it can still happen from time to time. Now, camping usually happens when a Killer "hates" a Survivor for looping them too long, because they're toxic to them, etc...
And while camping is yes, a "Strategy..." it's also an extension of what defines a Killers "skill." For one, a good Killer won't need to camp Survivors to kill them... they do that by regular means and fast downs as well, aka they cause what's called a "snowball effect" within the match and apply a lot of pressure against a team.
Usually when someone is being camped, they're most likely going to die due to the Killer having an insta-down power, NOED, etc... And while yes, perks like Borrowed Time counter camping... it can still get YOU yourself downed if the camper has NOED, chainsaw, etc...
Now here's where Insidious comes in. Most of the time, insidious is... well... used to camp Survivors! That's honestly all it's good for since that's what it seems to mainly be for... It reduces your Terror Radius to 0 and allows the Killer to be "hidden" until a Survivor approached the hooked Survivor. Than, they can either use their chainsaw, NOED, Haunted Grounds, whatever... and down the Survivor before they unhook them or literally right after... Than, the cycle continues.
It promotes this behavior (No pun intended) because that's what it's mainly only used for... and what it is practical with. Insidious has no other use, none. In a regular match you would never stand still unless... you were camping say a generator, an Exit Gate, a Survivor...
Like, that's all Insidious is for.
Now, here's why insidious isn't fun to face
Before anyone says it "But I haven't seen a LeatherFace insidious basement camp in awhile now! STOP CRYING" yes, they're quite rare to find these days...
Mostly because it's so boring that not even LeatherFace seems to want to be involved in it anymore... but also because Survivors have found counters to get around it, mainly when it was really common during its inception. You could use Kindred to have your teammates avoid it... or if you're in a SWFs with coms than you can just have them do generators and escape... Borrowed time helps with keeping both Survivors down... but not the unhooker... etc, etc, etc.
When you hear Insidious, you think LeatherFace. This is mainly because a basement build LeatherFace has literally no downsides when it comes to guaranteeing the kill. If you don't kill your original Survivor, you can just down the unhooker and kill them... than people will just keep throwing themselves to unhook Survivors until the Killer sees an opening and downs multiple Survivors... OR the Survivor just dies...
The issue here is... it isn't fun. Not for the Survivors... and I don't even know if the Killer enjoys it. They probably just hate Survivors so much that they want to torture themselves by waiting in a basement and chainsawing anyone who comes in... or doesn't... than the Survivor and the Killer sits there until the Survivor dies and the other 3 escape.
That's pretty boring if you ask me. And any Killer can use this build and honestly still down people that're unhooking the Survivor in the basement. Just grab them by surprise or hit them once than again after they've unhooked the Survivor... and if they don't have BT than you down the other Survivor and... yeah... you get the idea.
a suggestion to "better" insidious reputation and worth
By definition "Insidious" means to be "crafty" or "sly." This can define a person as well, someone who's sneaky or crafty or sly is an Insidious person. And while yes this fits with the perks power and meaning... the practical use it has outside of camping (Which like... 90% hate.) Is quite a terrible use of a perk and a perk slot.
Unless you're of course LeatherFace or someone with an insta-down power... you get the idea. It honestly should be changed to have a better use... maybe more people will use it if it was changed to something else? Who knows...
While it's hard to make another power for the perk and I can 100% understand that... it would greatly boost this perks reputation, and overall give it more use than say... LeatherFace in a basement.
Now, i'll give an idea below for a change to the perk... it's not perfect and it can of course be subject to change, interpretation, and overall... it could be bad or good depending on how you look at it.
some changes to the stealth mechanics of insidious
Because of popular opinion in the comments below, I've taken the liberty of changing the overhaul suggestions to these new buff/nerf suggestions below. I remove the overhaul suggestions since I've come to realize that having a overhaul of a perk isn't always the way to fix it.
some suggestions by chitenshi
@ChiTenshi had some good suggestions in the comments below, and I wanted to add them here. All credit goes to them of course, I just wanted to spread the ideas around.
- While in a Chase, you unlock your stealth ability. When a Survivor loses sight of you, your Terror Radius drops to 0 meters for X/Y/Z seconds
- While in a Chase, you Terror Radius decreases over time by 2/4/6 metres per second until it hits 0, you hit the Survivor or you interact with something
- While in a Chase, you can unlock your stealth ability. When a Survivor loses sight of you, your Terror Radius remains in the location you were last saw for X/Y/Z seconds
Now some suggestions by me to stay with the stealth mechanic
The suggestions above were kind of copies of pre-existing concepts, so why don't we work off of the stealth concept that exists already?
The first idea
- Unlocks the stealth ability. By standing still for 4/3/2 seconds, you reduce your Terror Radius to 0 meters and thus become stealthy until you move or act again. Between periods of 10/8/6 seconds, the perk will go into a cooldown state.
"Open your ears..."
This would give the perk a hard nerf, but it would overall counter-act the issue of basement and hook camping as a whole. This is debatable terrible, but that's for you guys to decide...
the second idea
- Unlocks the stealth ability. While in a chase, your Terror Radius will periodically drop to 0 meters for 2/4/6 seconds.
"Keep your eyes on me."
This kind of works off of ChiTenshi's 1st idea, but it only periodically activates and deactives during a chase. It gives it a sort of "mind-game" potential to it... the the seconds that each tier gives can be changed of course.
the third idea
- Unlocks the stealth ability. The Killers Terror Radius will periodically detach from the Killer for 5/10/15 seconds. When in proximity to a hooked Survivor, Insidious deactivates.
"So easily fooled..."
This will also be the main concept for the fourth idea, but I wanted to add in that last bit to deter from the main issue Insidious poses... It gives it a fresh concept, while also staying away from the main issue it brings.
the fourth idea
- Unlocks the stealth ability. By standing still for 4/3/2 seconds, you reduce your Terror Radius to 0 meters and thus become stealthy until you move or act again. When in 8 meters of a hooked Survivor, Insidious deactivates.
"Open your ears..."
Now this is a idea you might all debate is too much of a hard nerf... 10 meters isn't really that huge, and it's actually just about as big as Tier ll Myers with M&A... which in itself isn't huge either, but it can still be heard if you're close enough.
The 8 meters is to keep Killers out of the basement and standing right next to the Survivor... aka LF... and it also lets them stand around the area to give them a chance at least. So in theory you can still "camp the basement" but you won't be able to be IN the basement to do it.
tl;dr
Insidious promotes camping and tunneling... last time I heard, most people hate this. The perk is quite useless outside of camping... and Killers that use this perk to camp and tunnel is only promoting a boring game for Survivors and even the Killer in some cases.
I don't know anyone who enjoys sitting in a basement for a chainsaw kill as LeatherFace... unless like... you just hate Survivors that much and want to make their game as boring and miserable as possible?
So, I put some suggestions above the TL;DR for you guys to ponder in the comments below.
Comments
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That's what Myers or GhostFace or Pig or Demogorgon... you get the idea...
You can still do that through other means is what I mean! the issue is though, you rarely see this perk be used outside of malicious camping and tunneling though... and the practicality outside of a meme build is kind of... not there with this perk.
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Insidious is a perk designed to catch Survivors off-guard, provide Killers an opportunity to be sneaky (with varying degrees of success). I think the same goal should be sought rather than turning the perk on it's head.
I think the best way to approach this is to look at a perk that achieves a similar goal, Dark Devotion. Whilst it is a mid-tier perk, it achieves it's goal and provides Killers the potential to sneak up on Survivors by using mind-game mechanics. It's power requires certain triggers and has several restrictions, but it's function is fun and can be sensibly built around.
If we look to incorporate something similar to Insidious, make it more flexible to use (possibly in a chase) but with limits/restrictions (duration, who it effects, etc), players can achieve their goal of surprising Survivors without the match devolving into stagnant play-styles.
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A rework could work, but this could also work and won't require an overhaul to the perk.
The question is, what would that change be? Giving it restrictions and such is nice... but restricting a perk that requires you to stand still is a feat that isn't... the easiest to achieve... especially on a perk that's already considered to be in the niche to Low-Tier category.
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I don't mind it, definitely not op so why nerf it? Makes for a different gameplay style which is refreshing every now and then. Also if tome level 4 ends up having sacrifice 4 survivors in the basement then you better believe basement bubba will be making a comeback!
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That isn't the point though, the point is that it promotes a very dull and boring playstyle.
I don't know if you find camping a basement and having no way of getting the unhooked Survivor fun... but I don't. And it especially isn't fun for the hooked Survivor.
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Some examples like the below:
- While in a Chase, you can unlock your stealth ability. When a Survivor loses sight of you, your Terror Radius drops to 0 meters for X/Y/Z seconds
- While in a Chase, you Terror Radius decreases over time by 2/4/6 metres per second until it hits 0, you hit the Survivor or you interact with something
- While in a Chase, you can unlock your stealth ability. When a Survivor loses sight of you, your Terror Radius remains in the location you were last saw for X/Y/Z seconds
Keep the stealth concept, just rework how it triggers and functions.
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I like the 3rd, the 1st is a bit too ambitious and the "look at me" concept is hard enough... especially since GhostFaces power has a hard time with it as well...
It could work amazingly or be a buggy mess that won't respond well.
The 2nd would make Myers way too strong, and Killers like Hag or others with 24 or lower Terror Radius'es would just become stealth killers. While that concept is cool yes, it could pose an issue... Maybe have the Terror Radius decrease to 0 within 60/50/40 seconds of the chase? Something like that.
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Even though I hate the perk I feel like it should give undetectable status effect since you wanna make sure the survivors don't see whats coming
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Than Kindred can't counter the hard basement camping...
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They're ideas I just threw together but I think you're getting what I'm trying to suggest.
Anything to keep Insidious as a stealth perk but changing it so it doesn't invoke a boring play-style.
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Well the times I've insidious camped I did it outside the basement, not in so I could get away from kindred
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Exactly.
Hopefully in the future we'll see a change, but I wouldn't get my or anyones hopes up...
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It's mostly to counter basement camping which is mostly where insidious is used.
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fractured cowshed I like if its in main place. Monto made a video and I liked it. if its rotten fields I just hide in the corn and they go in.
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That could work but, the issue is that because of the video he made on Insidious LeatherFace... you could argue that was when the build and use of Insidious for basement camping took off.
So, the perk is infamous for being used in the basement, and 95% of players will automatically assume that.
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Wow! I absolutely LOVE these ideas! You have my vote! Would use this perk then! haha. Any of those suggestions.
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This is purely and opinion . You also stipulate that you don't like insidious. Also these are all terrible ideas. Idea one gain bloodlust speed (really). Idea two monstrous shrine with screams. Idea three, litteraly buffs survivors 90 seconds (less than two minutes) into the game. These aren't good suggestions, this is literally removing insidious purpose. (Hide you terror radius and become stealthy).
However, if you truly wanted it to become less "abusable" than just make it so by (standing still 2 seconds gain x seconds of undetectable, cool down is x seconds) this keeps it's main function and allows for greater play.
Tl;Dr these changes are terrible and don't keep insidious current function at all.
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Can you build upon it than? Rather than writing off the ideas and just telling me the concept of changing the perk is terrible as a whole?
Like, the idea of a cooldown is nice... but if you down someone in the basement and just stand still... than the cooldown doesn't matter at all. Unless the perk just shuts off periodically, than it'll still be abused regardless.
Also, I don't hate the perk, you don't need to hate something to know the flaws it poses.
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I sometimes have it equipped just for the people that won't leave the exits. Works pretty well, you walk by the gates where they are tbagging and hide around the corner. Once the terror radius is gone they come back out then bubba gets to have some fun.
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That's a creative way to use it, rather than just camping a basement...
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It's not just permanent no TR untill you move it's periodic. However, I was thinking like 15 seconds of undetectable for a 15-30 second cool down.
But most importantly we don't need another (less effective) dying light. We don't need a better version of Monsterous Shrine (just buff current MS). Lastly, We don't need a "better" bloodlust mechanic.
Focus around the stealth aspects not the "I don't like it or think it's fun so let's get rid of it". (Imagine if this were decisive strikes for instance, and instead of anti tunneling, you instead apply a four debuff for the first minute of the game but then buff the killers everything by four percent.)
Tl;Dr You had good intentions but completely removing insidious purpose (to stay stealthy) isn't good.
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Than i'll find another concept with the stealth mechanic.
@ChiTenshi had something going above, i'll add that in above crediting him and just work around more ideas.
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Yeah, basement camping doesn't work too often because of all the swf. The preschool is pretty good because you can hide upstairs close to the hole in the floor and ambush them before they can get up the stairs.
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That's if your teammates do that... sometimes they don't and will meet the same fate in the basement!
There isn't really a warning to that either, I guess it really does fit the "sly" theme of the perk.
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I added in ChiTenshi's ideas above with credit and gave some of my own (One works off of his 1st idea though... so it's more like 3 of my own than 4.)
How's that?
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using insidious the camp hooked survivors is only the most obvious way to use it. Certainly not the most effective.
Walk past a gen that is being worked on but has no one on it and stop after you los it, but not too far away. Then wait till you hear the sound of it being worked on.
IMO, the need to change it so that once standing still the heart beat recedes to 0 over the course of 2 secs, as if you were walking away. Additionally it should hide all sounds of breathing, red stain(I believe it does that already), and any other sounds as long as you don't move. Personally, though I'm sure people would complain about it. I'd give it a 2 sec 5/10/15% speed boost coming out of it.
You should also be able to trigger powers from it with out making sounds.
Pig should be able to mask here roar from it.
Nurse should be able to charge her tp from it.
Freddy should be able to initiate teleports from it. Fake out blood on the gen you just past to scare the survivors off and hit them when they move toward you.
Huntress should be able to charge hatchets without breaking it.
Billy and leather face should have their chainsaw masked while standing still and charging it.
wraith should have his bell silenced.
clown charge bottles silently.
trapper set traps silently.
hag set traps silently.
In order to PREVENT hook camping I'd actually make it so insidious doesn't work at all within 20M of a hooked survivor.
IMO, this would make insidious a very good perk, that encourages "fright" play and not hook camping.
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Yes but the point is that the threat of being camped in a basement is... quite boring tbh. Idk anyone that enjoys sitting in a basement or on a hook while knowing the Killer is right around the corner just looking at you or listening at the hook.
That's kind of why the perk isn't liked... it promotes a playstyle that a lot of people don't like. But, if we add those Killers specific changes than that would actually be pretty cool... and would make it a lot more practical! Rather than just camping in a corner waiting for noise for generator progress or unhooking.
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btw, @FireHazard I like the idea of perks that modify bloodlust. Though I don't know if it needs to be insidious. But in general more perks that modifyied the killers speed would be great.
Anything that increase the speed of the killer really impacts survivors ability to loop successfully because looping depends so much on learning how long it takes for a killer to catch up.
So something that reduced the time it takes to get into bloodlust.
Something that made it so blood lust lasts after you break a pallet.
Something that made it so you enter bloodlust when you go through a window.
Something that made it so you enter bloodlust when you break a pallet.
Etc. I think would all be very good additions.
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Perhaps we should modify Beast of Pray with that Insidious idea.
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How about...
Standing still for 4/3/2 seconds gives the killer the undetectable status effect for 15 seconds, has a cooldown of 60 seconds.
The cooldown would prevent the perk from being used while camping, but also allow some nice sneakiness if you intend to approaching an area you suspect a survivor is at. Imagine working on a gen peacefully, only to hear the sudden sound of Bubba's chainsaw roaring around the corner.
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Press the active ability button
You gain "undetectable" for 5/10/15 seconds.
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That works.
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That can also work, if you have a set amount of time for 0 Terror Radius than it can be used in a chase or just standing still.
The activate ability button won't have to be subjected to just standing still.
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I think it would be nice to keep the spirit of the perk, which is a TR perk. I really dont want a repeat of tinkerer, in which the perk we have now has nothing to do with its original version.
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True, the original perk improved the add-ons you used, which was a good theme of the perk with its name sake.
But uh... instead it was changed to have nothing to do with the perk. My changes above for the overhaul section was going off of definitions of what "insidious" means, so it kind of works with what it's saying.
But that's why I also added buffs/nerfs below to compromise. Since a lot of people here agree that the perk should keep its stealth theme.
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I think giving it a type of time limited stealth would make the perk REALLY dangerous in the hands of Bubba for a whole new reason...and would be pretty epic.
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for sure, its the easy way to use it, which is why its used that way. With changes that promoted using it for surprising people at generators and removing its hook camping potential I believe it would be an excellent perk at all levels. Once survivors realize you have it they'd also waste time waiting at the generator to make sure you didn't insidious them.
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Keeps him out of the basement, and if it buffs bubba than that works too... he's terrible as is. Tbh, this whole issue is to keep him from camping and instead make him actually chase people.
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Yes but still, the sheer fake it promotes this type of play-style is not good... it's very boring to camp people, at least it is to me. And if you're the one being camped than it ruins your gameplay as well.
Think about it from like, another perspective rather than the "mind-game potential" it brings.
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I'm going to remove the overhaul suggestions above since I've come to realize how pointless that kind of is.
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This sounds like a great idea, I would just save it for a new killer perk. Insidious can be bad if just used for basement camping but there are other ways to use it. If you want to rework a perk I would vote for monstrous shrine.
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I overhauled pretty much every useless perk in another post already. The post is old so some things might be dated.
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I don't have anything against Insidious in its current form. If somebody wants to meme Basement Leatherface, I can live with that. I see that happen so rarely that I don't get angry about it.
Besides the nerfs you suggested, I don't like the idea #2 because it would not give the killer a significant benefit, while at the same time causing the killer a huge problem should the survivor run OoO.
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I dunno, I enjoy playing low and mid tier killers, lol. Was rocking Bubba all last weekend at rank 3 and doin WORK, lol.
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Than you've been giving him some good rep, the only thing I see when I face a leatherface during a few Survivor games is that they tend to monitor the hooks too much and if you're in the basement with a "proxy camper" LF, than it's a wrap for ya!
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Personally I want it to be something that can actually be used while moving for surprise attacks. Insidious means to approach slowly so something that works well with that idea would be nice:
- When standing still get a token every second up to 2/3/4. Each token reduces your terror radius by 8 meters, reduces your movement speed by 2% and removes your red stain. 45 seconds after you've moved or when taking an offensive action you will lose all tokens.
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Understandable, but OoO is quite situational now which makes it not used a lot anymore.
The times between the Terror Radius drops can be bigger to counter this issue.
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That's a neat suggestion, anything that keeps them from literally standing for minutes is a bonus.
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I find that chainsaw is great for directing a survivor around pallets to give them minimum time to run before breaking it. If they run early, chainsaw to them instead of the pallet... If they wanna run to the left, circle around til theyre on the right before bringing the saw on the pallet, so they have to cross over. The less time you give them to reach another pallet...the easier it is to use that chainsaw on THEM. Also the fact that you can instadown ppl makes it so you dont give them a speedboost to get out of dead zones.
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I use insidious with demogorgon to throw survivors off super hard. It works great with of the abyss.
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