Borrowed TIme don't work with Freddy
I used BT in the radius when the girls are singing but freddy hit and the survivor get down anyway.
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You need to be awake. It only works if you can hear a heartbeat.
Indicates to unfortunate Survivors that they are Oblivious to the Killer's whereabouts. The following effects apply:
The Survivor does not hear The Killer's Terror Radius.
The Survivor is not affected by any effects that are conditional to being inside of a Terror Radius.
https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Oblivious#List_of_Status_Effects
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Adding on: even if it was active, when freddy hits your survivor they're asleep so they're no longer in a terror radius so he can just proxy chase them for borrowed timer's mend timer to run out.
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Adding on again, he can also hit the survivor before they pull you off, causing BT to not activate in the first place. I think at the VERY LEAST, BT should activate based on the hooked survivor, not the unhooker, because on the hook you're always awake. He can still chase you until the timer runs out, there's no need for him to double down.
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As a Freddy player, he really REALLY didn't need Oblivious when asleep in his base kit. It's dumb he gets what amounts to a free BT counter and free Deep Wounds counter. Seriously dumb. If anything, this should be an add-on effect of Pill Bottle (in place of the current effect because it's just meh). But heck no for base kit. I get the reasoning for giving him this, but it's seriously broken and just kind of stupid. And unlike killers with Undetectable or other instances of Oblivious, Freddy literally needs to do nothing for it, and even if you wake up he can put you back into Dream World immediately upon hitting you, negating any wake ups. Other killers have harder counters or need to swap modes which gives time for the rescued survivor to get away. The only killer who can sort of get away with it on a similar level is Myers because his TR is so small, but even then you can still trigger BT if he is right on top of the hook (when it is absolutely needed the most).
I hope the devs revert this change. Again I play Freddy, he is my top 4 killers, and I have no issue with BT working in Dream World.
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The oblivious change was stupid I always see Freddy's camp and tunnel because they know they can do it with no consequences
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Literally all the devs need to do to fix this is change BT so that the timer doesn't go down in chase either.
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So after Spirit we are moving onto Freddy. Cool.
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Very stupid change.
I despise going against Freddy ever since this went live because a lot Freddies are abusing this. And then there's Forever Freddy as well.. a few changes really wouldn't hurt him but don't wanna go too much off topic now.
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This may sound controversial but I feel like this should stay how it is.
As a survivor, being a dream state is disadvantageous to you. You become more easier to see (white outline), your action speeds are slower, and you are vulnerable to his snares and pallets.
Adding the oblivious buff (and subsequently countering BT all together) would make sense as being in a dream state (in my opinion) should be heavily crippling.
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There's a difference between crippling and broken. Giving Freddy Oblivious just means he can camp for free and tunnel for free without needing to do anything.
Again if it were an effect of Pill Bottle that would be fine because it costs an add-on slot, but as a base effect it's just broken.
No other killer gets this. Myers is the closest but you can still give BT. Pig/Wraith have to exit stealth mode. GF can be broken out of stealth. Insidious/Tinkerer requires a perk and the killer has to stand still/survivors need to finish a gen.
Freddy just gets it for free.
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I'm guessing that means you won't like my idea of giving Freddy "Undetectable" rather than give Survivors "Oblivious" in the Dream World 🤔
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No because both are basically the same when it comes to BT.
Just revert the change entirely, put the effect on Pill Bottle instead of what it does now (or maybe in combination with 1 of it's current effects).
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Think of it this way. Certain perks/items can hard counter certain killers in Dead by Daylight. Small Game can counter Hag and Trapper. Iron Will can counter Spirit. Flashlights can burn a Wraith, stunning it during it's uncloak. Calm Spirit can counter Doctor and so on, and so on.
So why is it inherently wrong for a killer to be able to counter a single survivor perk? Other than the aforementioned camping, which I don't agree with.
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The problem with this is that BT is a band aid fix to a behavioral issue. BT is supposed to be their "counter" to camping and tunneling. Giving a killer immunity to that does two things. It gives campers a killer to use to maximize it's effectiveness, and encourages that behavior. Oblivious is fine when used in moderation, but when the killer can inflict it at will, while it renders band aid fix perks useless, it's bad design.
Yes, being in the dream world should be a detriment to the survivor, but it shouldn't add bad design on top of bad design.
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Well see it this way, if a killer is camping and you know they are camping. Or if you hear the lullaby very close to the hook, why are you bothering to go for a very risky save? You could force the Freddy to waste gens because he is standing there waiting for a save that would never happen. So he is forced to go away from the hook in order to protect and patrol gens.
BT rewards unsafe unhooks, and I've used it everytime I play as a Survivor. It basically makes hook diving an easy way to get someone safely off the hook. I don't necessarily agree that Freddy needs to be changed because he is only 1 killer out of 17 that has a complete counter to one perk. It's not that broken
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I disagree that it actually makes an unsafe unhook safe, unless the gates are open and the door is close. If you unhook unsafely with BT, all that literally does if they decide to chase the unhooked is give them a few extra seconds, which they MAY(but not often, unless more people are there to help with the unhook) get to a pallet. It rewards the unhooker with BP, but it rarely does anything helpful for the unhooked, again, unless the doors are open or 99ed or multiple people are there to keep the killer from his victim.
As for "why are you bothering for a risky save?", I don't use BT, but I don't think that a counter to bad behavior should have a counter to it. It was made to counter camping, there should not be a counter to that counter, and yes, you can punish the killer camping, if the hooked person wasted minutes of his time and you managed to get 2 or almost 2 gens done(in other words people aren't doing totems, chests, or nothing). Otherwise, he'll find someone else after that person dies on the hook before the gens are all done. But even if you managed to successfully get all the gens done while that camper only had one kill, that one person had to suffer through a game doing absolutely nothing and likely didn't get many points and is going to depip because all they got out of the game was a chase. At least with BT there's a potential chance they get to play the game more, except against Freddy.
In my opinion, this is like saying survivors should have a counter to Spirit Fury+Enduring(where the pallet actually does not break, or the killer is still stunned for the full duration).
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Because he literally doesn't have to do anything.
Using a perk/add-on to counter BT is fine because you give up a perk/add-on slot.
Using your power ACTIVELY to counter BT is fine because every killer that can do this has limits and counters.
Freddy does not fit any of these criteria. He just does it, with no input on his end. And the survivor has to go so far out of their way to wake up in most cases, which is easily undone by Freddy hitting them. In other words, he just plays like he normally would and immediately counters whatever you can do to counter him. His counter to BT is entirely passive. THAT is the problem.
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I prefer old Freddy tbh. This new Freddy doesn't even require skill to play. You could be a new killer and probably 4k. BT has no power with this killer. I mean perks should have their counters but this counter is a bit op. The mend timer at least should not go down while asleep.
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There is a counter to Spirit Fury+Enduring, and it's dropping the pallet in front of the killer rather than stunning them.
Which, again, in my opinion isn't that big of a deal. Considering that Freddy is just 1 out of 17 killers. No other killer has what he has, yes. Which means that he is more powerful when there's a survivor on a hook. He rewards players for consistently keeping the pressure on by putting them in the dream state. A state that, even as a survivor, I know I should be heavily disadvantaged in.
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Yes, but that forces you to play differently. I said in which case the counter means that the pallet does not break, or the killer is stunned for the entire duration, rendering the perk completely useless.
As for the "rewards players by putting them in the dream state", no he does not. You're also passively put into the dream state. As for Borrowed time, it does not work no matter if he puts you in the dream state or not. He can hit you, and Borrowed Time no longer works, he can let you unhook, and hit the survivor, and they just bleed out, he can basically go unchallenged when camping, which is all this change really does.
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But you are already disadvantaged in Dream World besides the Oblivious. It's just not necessary, especially when it's passive. If he had to actively do something (eg. use an add-on) I would be fine with it. It's the passive base kit part that is a problem.
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I as a survivor don't personally have a problem with him having this in his basekit. I don't play him but I don't think this is as broken as you think it is.
I'm fine having risks or killers that can completely negate a perk I bring, as perks that can completely negate certain killers also exists on the other side.
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Negating regular perks is fine. Negating perks to get around campers / tunnelers is not fine. Thats the issue.
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Freddy should not be able to camp with impunity. Camping is already insanely strong, one of the strongest killers in the game doesn't need a free benefit to help him do it better.
"Just wake up" except that a proper camper is going to smack you before you can actually rescue the person on hook, putting you back to sleep before the save can happen. Needs a nerf, along with Freddy in general really.
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Just make it so hitting survivor cuts down timer to fall asleep (by 33-50%) instead of putting them in dream state immediately , this way we can keep oblivious in his kit and remove BT abuse
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That would be a serious blow to him beyond just the BT thing since he needs survivors to be asleep to even use his power.
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New Freddy is badly designed period.
Give me my main back.
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Survivors passively fall asleep in 30 sec , I can't see how it could hurt Freddy besides hard camping .
p.s. to teleport you don't need sleeping survivors (I know about cooldown boost) , you can also place snares/pallets without sleeping survivors. Your argument about 'preventing from using power' is just a biased bs .
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it takes 60 to passively fall asleep, 90 if they woke up via alarm clock. My arguement about his power was due to awake survivors not interacting with the snares or pallets you place...it doesnt affect them. Yes he can place them, but its a waste of time if the survivor can just walk through the snares unaffected.
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It wastes no time since Freddy doesn't suffer any penalty while placing them , he doesn't need to collect them either .
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He has to walk to the spots to place them. Typically its good to place the snares ahead of time (even if just afew seconds ahead of time) and try to herd a survivor into them to get use, rather than just running after the survivor and leaving a trial of snares behind you. While I agree that the BT thing is BS, and would gladly agree that something about it SHOULD be done... I just disagree with your method, which would greatly affect him outside of your BT situation.
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While I agree that your way of placing Snares is indeed better and way more interactive, all I see Freddys do nowadays is "reverse bloodlusting". Not breaking the Pallet, but running around, spamming Snares to slow the Survivor down. Fun. But I guess you are not one of those, which is cool!
@topic:
Freddy should not have the Oblivious effect. He should NOT be able to ignore BT. And he should NOT be able to be seen by asleep Survivors with Object all the time (which is the case). Those two things do not even out, because there is way more BT than Object (thankfully, already way too much annoying Object-Users out there), resulting in an unneccessary Buff.
He should not be able to ignore a Perk that is against Campers, but he should also not become a Joke vs Object-Users without any possibility to mindgame. Just remove the Oblivious effect.
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Id actually be cool with this. I was doing QUITE well before that change. The change didnt make a whole lot of real difference to his gameplay, just gutted BT mostly as well as making TR based killer perks useless on Freddy (infectous fright, unnerving presence, ect).
One thing that might be better though would just be a change to BT to be distance based rather than TR based.
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"One thing that might be better though would just be a change to BT to be distance based rather than TR based."
This anyway, I really dont know why they never did this. Because it should not matter if this Ghostface near the Hook is in Nightshroud or not. Of if this Wraith, who only plays Wraith because he can camp, is cloaked. But for now, I would be happy with Freddy not ignoring BT, because a Ghostface can be broken out before and a Wraith needs to either Uncloak (which takes time) or can be baited into Uncloaking.
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The way it currently stands makes it stronger or weaker based off the killer and their perks...which is odd. The Doc with distressing thats halfway across the map...you get BT for him. The Myers with monitor and abuse and dead rabit thats RIGHT THERE...nope...you were 7 meters away.
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If that's your reasoning then I don't see why Freddy should not have a counter to BT with his Dream World. Yes it's passive rather than reactive like dropping down a pallet early, but his whole gimmick is that the Dream World is supposed to be a state the survivors do not want to be in. The longer they are in the Dream World the more they make Freddy powerful and able to snowball against them.
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While Its true that people SHOULD be trying to wake up to counter him... The problem is that the survivor that was just saved with BT just becomes a deadman walking. Even if his teammates play it right and wake up before going for that save, BT still doesnt help unless the exit gates are close and open. He gets unhooked, he gets smacked which procs BT...then he falls anyway because hes being chased by a killer with no TR and the BT meter drops.
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Your reasoning would be valid if the Survivors would not put in Dream State when getting hit by Freddy. If there would just be that 60 second (or 90 seconds when waking up with the Clock) Timer, fair enough.
But since you can simply camp and hit the Unhooker, it does not matter at all if this person was awake or not.
Furthermore, you can hit the unhooked person, and since they are not in TR, their Mending Bar will go down, even when chased. And this also happens when the Unhooker is fully awake.
While I agree that Survivors should try to be awake as much as possible, it will not help with Unhooking vs a camping Freddy.
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