Why do Killers have to play around a perk which survs are potencially not even using?
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So what would happen if they removed Decisive Strike altogether? Or they restricted its use to the one survivor so it couldnt not be learned by all survivors in player's collection. I kind of like the idea there is one unque perk that cannot be learned by every survivor or every killer in a survivor's collection. Consider if BBQ and Chilli was restricted to Leatherface? OK you may think I am stuffed full of wild blueberry muffins for saying this but wouldnt this make more players use more killers rather than building a meta build killer as Oni is likely to be later this year?
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There's also an infinite number of situations where you can avoid ds one being slugging until the timer expires most people do this
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Yeah!
With that type of skillcheck being so skillful and one of the "top 5 most skillful thing you can do in the game," it is now clear to me that that's why so many people run Overcharge @_@
"There's also an infinite number of situations where you can avoid ds one being slugging until the timer expires most people do this."
I usually slug the obsession in cases where DS is obvious, but if I'm hit with a non-obsession DS while trying to play 'fair,' that person's game is finished.
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Regarding DS specifically I do think it could be more specialized around anti-tunneling, but it's subjective nature makes it impossible for it to ever perfectly mirror it, thus we can only (and should) approximate it.
Currently the simplest solution I've come up with is to replace the timer with "hook someone else = DS deactivates", which removes several scenarios where someone is tunneling but not DSed and isn't tunneling but IS DSed.
It's not perfect of course, it would still trigger in the scenario we were just discussing for example, but it would at least mean that if you do go after someone else then you won't get hit by DS no matter how effective you otherwise are. But also that if you go after the unhooked then no matter how good they are at looping DS will still trigger.
And then just make the stun length the scaling stat.
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Why do Survivors have to waste time cleansing Dull Totems for a Perk the Killer might not even have?
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As many people suggested I would like to see DS changed so that once a new survivor is hooked, DS either resets completely or the cool down drops by 15 seconds.
BUT, I personally can live with it as it is now. If Survivors have to play around Chili, killers can play around DS.
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lmao no. even a potato can hit that skill check.
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Enduring no longer affects anything other then pallet stuns.
Unless its bugged currently.
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DS has already been nerfed to what it is. I remember when those sneaky buggers could pop you with DS any time after they had been hooked once! If you think it's a tough one now, you should have seen it then! Plus, if noone brings it, nobody is your obsession, and you know you can tunnel for days!! If that's what you wanna do.
Post edited by LOA on1 -
No matter how many times we ask it won't change.
Peanits (I probably wrote it wrong) already said that this perk is fine in devs view so it won't be changed. Simple as that.
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Kind of like NOED right ? :)
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I know what i meant by it is the game has very little skill to it
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Run Unbreakable and DS.
I see Killers using whatever they can to make the game better for them, even when I use fun perks that don’t help me survive.
I suggest everyone to use this combination.
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They don't.
Eat the stun and down them a few seconds later.
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I mean.. you could say the same about NOED..
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I'd just run unbreakable and then ACT like you have DS
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survivors constantly have to play around bbq noed and other things without actually knowing you have it as precaution. keep crying
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Yeah idk what the OP's problem is.
I get the "it triggers well after I've already ignored the unhooked" thing, but this is just laziness. If you've downed someone immediately after they are unhooked you know to watch out for DS. Even if I had my changes go through you still need to bother to execute the counterplay.
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Was gonna say this ^^^
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Incorrect. I have downed multiple survivors and hooked them and still gotten DS when I stumbled across the other survivor. It is not an anti-tunnel perk, it is 60 seconds of near immunity.
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Spoken like a whiny survivor main. Newsflash: Survivors don't care if you're tunneling or not - they'll still DS you. They just wait til there's other players around or the gens are done/almost done. It's not a matter of tunneling at all. In fact, if a survivor is wasting their DS on a tunneler, then they aren't a very good survivor to begin with, imo. Of course, judging by your other comments in this thread, you are, in fact, a whiny survivor main. It's standard practice to survey the area after hooking someone, especially when you get those over-the-top MoM hero squads that unfailingly (compulsively) try to rescue their buddies like clockwork.
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And if i catch the person with make ur choice put it on a hook, you come to rescue with DS active, I hit you and what I do? If I grab you I eat your DS if I pursue the other they can heal you up and even get the DS of that guy cuz I'm tunneling in all the ways Killer loses. I would propose that DS works like BT once you leave TR it deactivates in 20 secs.
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I purposely tunnel, it gets rid of them faster and their salty tears fuel me to the next tunnel. Guess what? After i tunnel them I slug them because of DS (now they complain because I am not hooking them, obviously thier fault). After the slug I camp them hard and do the same to their teammates. Survivors are potatoes and deserve to be on the ground.
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They should not even have the skillcheck as it does not actually serve a purpose with how brain dead ez it is to hit.
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And if you can get a significant advantage out of that then you should do it. Tunneling doesn't make you a bad person.
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It is a tactic that works. It is funny though, they complain about slugging but then slugging is the counter to DS. Survivors are such potatoes. Camping is the counter to altruistic survivors while tunneling can be efficient.
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Yeah, but in that case you should take the DS instead of slugging them. You still tunneled(I had this situation when I was playing Spirit myself, and I took the DS because I technically did tunnel. I couldn't find the other survivor, that survivor I found and downed deserved the stun). Still 4ked.
In most situations I find taking a DS stun doesn't really do too much. You just down them a few seconds later unless they dropped close by a pallet. But usually when I down someone, the pallets around where they're hooked are gone.
The only time I slug a survivor is if there are other survivors around the person I downed, or I'm playing Legion, and hit the person who got off the hook with FF to find other survivors, then that person who I'm trying to avoid tunneling pallet stuns me. Then I get even by forcing you to bleed out on the ground the rest of the game.
Killers could play around this too easily. Slug the person who got off the hook, down and hook the unhooker, hook the slugged survivor. Honestly that's pretty standard killer gameplay for avoiding DS. In fact I would honestly believe that's why people are like "I didn't tunnel, so why am I being punished for it?" when in reality they did.
Post edited by Atrushan88 on0 -
The only time I slug a survivor is every game. It counters DS and they become bait for further slugging.
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Why should I care if they deserve the stun or not? It's bad for me to give it to them so I never should.
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@NuclearBurrito I'm just saying you hitting the unhooker is still tunneling. Claiming it's "not your fault" is just silly when it literally was. You chose to look where the person was unhooked. It's pretty obvious you're gonna find the unhooked person there. Your intention may have been to find the unhooker, but you can't claim that your own conscious decisions are not your fault.(couldn't quote, forums being bad)
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Taking advantage of the situation is my fault. (downing the person I found)
The situation itself is not. (finding the unhooked rather than the unhooker)
Regardless it still isn't tunneling, since there is no target being ignored in favor of the one I actually pursued.
Btw you are getting mixed up between unhooker and unhooked. The unhooker is the one who wasn't initially on the hook that went for the save. The unhooked is the person who I previously found and hooked. You have them backwards right now, be careful about that.
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@NuclearBurrito Yeah, I meant the unhooked in that first sentence. Every other one I used it correctly however. And it is still tunneling. That person just got off the hook and you hit them again right after they got off the hook. How is that NOT tunneling? Sure, that may not have been your intention, but you finding the unhooked and downing them instead is still tunneling.
Yeah, the situation is your fault. You created the situation in which you are in. I'm not saying to ignore people being unhooked. There are likely two survivors nearby, but you still created that situation. Saying it's not your fault is pretty silly when you created the situation in the first place.
You can do whatever you want, obviously. I just don't like to use bad sportsmanship when playing, unless the situation is deemed necessary.
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Ok right now define tunneling.
Not give an example, define it in terms that can be generalized. Because we won't get anywhere if we don't agree on what the damn term means.
For the record when I say tunneling I mean:
"Targeting a specific predefined player to the exclusion of other possible targets"
In other words tunneling implies that you are ignoring someone else. This also means it's possible to tunnel prior to your first hook (although it would be nearly impossible to tell from the outside).
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Survivors have to play around NOED, it's not just killers here.
Besides, both perks encourage healthy gameplay: No Genrushing & Tunneling. 😁🤗
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@NuclearBurrito I consider what you mention(focusing on one survivor the entire game and ignoring all other targets) tunnel vision, rather than "tunneling", and while I do think that they share a particular trait, tunneling as I would define it is going after the person who was just unhooked, so that you can hook them again, preventing them from playing the game at all. I consider it an upgraded behavior of camping, because in the early ranks you encounter camping, in the later ranks, to prevent being called campers, you experience tunnelers, because that gets them more points than if they were simply camping. Tunneling also isn't target specific. You can do it to any player in the game, there's no specific target, except for it being the one who was hooked, and therefore injured, being the easier target.
I wouldn't see this as a bad thing, except for the fact that people who are tunneled don't get to play the game, which is bad sportsmanship imo. I don't feel there should be any situation in a game where a player is unable to play the game, except for being hooked normally. I'd also rate this as similar behavior to older shooter games where you spawn in the exact same spot every time and the enemy just waits at that spot and shoots you on sight. There's a reason mechanics like these were updated over time to be unable to exploit. Behavior obviously didn't learn from those games.
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Well in that case the term is meaningless in terms of morality or game health especially since your definition excludes situations not involving the hook from being tunneling (such as slugging).
It also means that if you slug someone off the hook then you aren't tunneling, since you aren't going after them so you can hook them again but are instead going after them for some other function, in this case slugging them.
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Funny thing is I'm a killer main. I just know a 4 second stun isn't game over (unless you're trash). Also no one runs MoM you're just making up the worst case scenario. Now stop being a whiney killer main thinking every survivor perk is unfair because you make all killer mains look bad.
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Also, I didn't say the entire game (nor did I even mention a duration) just that the target has to be predefined.
So if I go to the hook specifically so I can chase the unhooked Survivor in particular then it's tunneling, but if I'm going to the hook to chase ANY Survivor then it's not tunneling, regardless of who I actually ended up chasing.
I consider this more useful since that's the scummy part of the term and is what we actually want to discourage and not simply chasing someone with no particular goal of chasing a specific player.
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thats funny. You know what good survivors do? they hide in lockers right in front of you and deliberately try to get caught again just to waste time. You cannot slug from locker, you have to pull them out. There are times as killer where I have hooked someone and still got ds'd bc i caught the previous person. my fault for tunneling...
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If a survivor jumps in a locker in front of you there are 2 things you can do either pull them out take the 4 second stun and down them again or wait down the time and then pull them out.
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Fine, let me adjust my definition. Preventing a player from being able to actively take part in the game after they are unhooked. Is that better?
The thing is, if I'm unhooked and you're right there coming after me, of course I'm gonna jump in a locker. I'm not going to allow you to circumvent the consequences of tunneling me by slugging me. Go chase the guy who unhooked me and I won't need to get in a locker.
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You can not tunnel and still get stunned.
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What so you can get on a gen right after? I am not tunneling then am i? Survivors always say that "the killers just fail to apply pressure correctly" Well its kinda impossible when gen speeds are so quick and I cant even slug a survivor who is invincible for 60 long seconds. It should be changed to
- after entering a locker it goes away
- If a killer hooks a different survivor after you have been unhooked then it goes away.
Thats all. Id be fine with them increasing the time even. But only if those changes were implemented. The perk is bs mate
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No that has the same issue as the last one, what if no hook is involved?
Can I not tunnel someone while using a slug build? Particularly as the Pig via a trap.
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The important thing when defining a term is to nail down what idea you are trying to convey.
Are all instances of tunneling such that they prevent taking part in the game and if not when isn't it? Is an unsuccessful attempt still tunneling? Can you tunnel on complete accident? Can you be mechanically forced to tunnel? Can a Survivor tunnel?
A definition is such that anything it describes is the term and anything it doesn't is not without exception. Do remember that.
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I know I probably sound like I'm just being semantic, but this really is an important thing to nail down.
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If they made it where if someone else was hooked, it deactivated, that would make it SO easy to avoid. Just slug the person who had DS, chase and hook the person who unhooked, then go back and hook the person who had DS. That seems to be standard killer gameplay and in no way would DS ever activate because people would do this actively to avoid it. It's pretty silly that anyone could think this would be a good idea. The only changes I've seen proposed for DS that I agree with are.
- DS lasts 30 seconds.
- DS timer only runs when the survivor is not in the dying state.
That would make it 100% anti tunnel, and remove the issue of people who are applying too much pressure. People would still complain about it, but it'd be the same people who tunneled in the first place, which is very likely most of the people who complain about DS currently.
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Ok but that counter itself has a counter.
The time it takes to down the unhooked is plenty of time for the unhooker to run away (minimum of 3 seconds even if the unhooked has no time to run whatsoever which means he can avoid getting hit for 20 seconds before taking into account loops), so if the Killer chases then that's plenty of time for a 3rd player to come in and pick up the unhooked player (which takes 16 seconds minimum).
And if the Killer DOES successfully down both... then he still hasn't tunneled since he went after everyone which is the opposite of what most people mean when they say tunneling.
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The counter you're proposing is 3 people off generators. That gives the killer plenty of pressure. Nearly nothing is being done in the time you're chasing the unhooker while the guy on the ground is slugged. This is extremely in the favor of the killer, not the survivors.
If the killer does successfully down both, he did still tunnel, because he downed the unhooked person first, which was the the action of tunneling, then chased the unhooker because the unhooked person was on the ground already ready for them to pick up.
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