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BHVR, please, don't give Herman the bad touch
With Doc being next on the c̶h̶o̶p̶p̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶c̶k̶ list, Legion's "buff" has got me worried. Doc does not need any nerfs to compensate a buff as he is atm, and if he really might, as his change is that substantial somehow, don't bring him out with nerfs, the worst that happens is that he gets to dominate for first the time in his life during a ptb. Then actually use the ptb to measure his strength and THEN change him accordingly(should've done the same for The Leg, and any other future soft rework as, you know, the ptb is for testing).
That is all
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I don't have faith in behavior to not give him more nerfs to 'compensate' for his buffs.
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Why do people think Doctor's getting nerfed.
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Because they said that they would make him less frustrating to play against and that means cooldowns like the legion and the nurse updates. Also, they said that they WILL NOT buff him. They made it really clear.
EDIT: Not buffing doesn't mean nerfing.
Post edited by NullSp3c on8 -
LOL I read this thread title and all I can think of is this image with Doc's head on the doll
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they'll probably remove the ability to stop vaults and pallet Throws
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Then it was a success, i can die peacefully now
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Which will remove a lot of his power. If that happens the devs are losing me again for awhile. I'm tired of already weak killers getting nerfed and strong killers getting over nerfed.
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Where/when did they say all of this? I'm curious to see it.
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It was when people asked which killers were going to be touched next to freddy. It was before the nurse update and after the freddy's update. I don't remember the exact date. Search for it and ill do it too.
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People exaggerate Legion, Nurse, and Spirit changes, then assume BHVR is going to gut any killer they say are going to rework or is over performing.
In reality, BHVR doesn't always gut killers, and when they do, gutting is exaggerating what exactly they did to that killer. Most changes BHVR made towards killers is for making things balanced and fun for everyone. They just buffed Legion and made Freddy a beast a while ago — Ghostface got a significant buff too. The community, not everyone, tends to only see the bad of BHVR more than the good because it's easier to look at someone's mistakes than look at their success.
I said too much, bracing for impact! 😕
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Okay I'm sorry.
BHVR I love you guys I'm just teasing but I had to do this
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They thing about fun is subjective, with the exception when you just add cooldowns to a killer like the nurse.
I understand the spirit changes (with the exception of the yakuyoke amulet one) but overall i like these changes and the freddy ones and I, personally, think he needs a nerf since 1 month after his release.
I don't understand when you say "Most changes BHVR made towards killers is for making things balanced and fun for everyone.". Since when making a killer's power rendered to very niche situations is fun? Like making 15 drawbacks for some reward. AKA Legion.
And there are a lot of people that play nurse that stopped playing her. Nominately a guy that had around 5k hours on nurse stopped playing her and, frankly, her add-ons didn't have that much thought into it.
I agree when you say that spirit, freddy and ghostface got better. 100%
I just want you to explain how did the changes to legion and nurse make them more fun playing as.
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I'm guessing they'll be giving him a full rework then, if they're not actually buffing his current kit. Doctor is frustrating to play against in the same vein as old Freddy, meaning he isn't even strong but the fact that he can detect you is annoying. I doubt they would dare to nerf a weak killer after the Nurse and Legion fiasco. But this is bhvr we're talking about. The new Freddy does gives me hope for Doctor.
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Legion got nerfed. Making his mostly useless power slightly better, but taking away any synergy, is not a buff.
The Freddy rework was very good.
The Nurse changes were awful. Nobody asked for a basekit nerf and she feels miserable to play.
Spirit changes are weird, they are all fine, but I don't get the changes to the Amulet or her post-phase speed.
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The post phase speed was because she would travel gigantic distances with it.
With the 2 add ons that increase it, she would lunge by the range of a hill.
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Legion is losing all on hit effects in FF and they are making mending faster, all for moving slightly faster in FF which can't down survivors and just injures them, how fun... i'm sure they won't go on gens after they mend for 8 seconds
Post edited by TKTK on4 -
Sweat baby sweat baby...
I think they will buff his ability and nerf his annoyability in the same update.
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I think the base speed was fine.
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I don't think they can make doc worse honestly. If they make his shock have a bigger range with no addons then thats a great buff and would make him way better at stopping loops. This is also the most likely change he could get because his base shock range is pathetically small and no matter what you pretty much always need range addons to get benefits from his other addons.
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I feel like the post-phase thing was more QOL than a nerf. In theory, you should go the same distance over the same time, it's just more gradual instead of very abrupt.
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"With Doc being next on the c̶h̶o̶p̶p̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶c̶k̶ list, Legion's "buff" has got me worried. Doc does not need any nerfs to compensate a buff as he is atm, and if he really might, as his change is that substantial somehow, don't bring him out with nerfs, the worst that happens is that he gets to dominate for first the time in his life during a ptb."
I know what you are saying here but oh my god was this a rollercoaster to get through. lol
Anyways, I'm not sure what they are going to do with him but I honestly can't say I am worried.
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@GodDamn_Angela me understand. me just tired. me no slep. no judge pls
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The only issue with the doctor is his shock therapy needs a wee bit longer range and his shock doesn't need a delay. It's need to be instant. All his problems fixed.
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I agree with most of what is said here, Freddy and Ghostface both (rightfully) got majorly buffed, and people are mostly exaggerating Spirit's nerf. For Legion however, I wholeheartedly disagree that Legion was not/is not getting gutted.
To be fair, I agree that Legion had many problems that needed fixing, such as moonwalking and Frank's + SWS. However, I feel that they took it too far. They severely nerfed every aspect of Feral Frenzy for little compensation.
For a 5% increase in movement speed Legion lost/gained
- The ability to down in Feral Frenzy, making the power non lethal.
- A loss of speed in Feral Frenzy, now moving at 5.0m/s, down from 5.28m/s.
- The ability to see blood in Feral Frenzy.
- A 24 meter Terror Radius, now a 32 meter Terror Radius.
- Missing an attack with Feral Frenzy now cancels the power and depletes the power gauge.
- Overall cooldown of Feral Frenzy increased from 15 seconds to 20 seconds.
- Feral Frenzy can only be used when the meter is completely full.
- Stun time of ending Feral Frenzy increased to 4 seconds from 3 seconds.
- Vaulting in Feral Frenzy is now slower.
These changes completely gutted Legion. The purpose for Feral Frenzy changed from lethality to slow down, with Legion relying on perks like Thanatophobia, Sloppy Butcher, STBFL, and Dying Light. Now Legion is getting another update.
These changes include
- Increased Feral Frenzy's movement speed to 5.2m/s, compared to 5.0m/s.
- Vaulting in Feral Frenzy is now faster, taking only 0.9 seconds.
- Feral Frenzy is no longer a basic attack.
- Mending now takes 12 seconds solo, and 8 seconds when performed by another survivor.
While Legion gains back their movement speed from before in Feral Frenzy, the lack of ability to down in Feral Frenzy serves it no use. The big kicker for Legion here is the reduction to mending time and making Feral Frenzy hits count as basic attacks. This removes what was left of Legion's slowdown potential. The removal of synergy with STBFL and Sloppy Butcher allows survivors to completely ignore being injured, thereby removing the slowdown caused by survivors healing, which will therefore make Feral Frenzy completely ignorable, as there is no point in using it if all survivors are injured. This, combined with the fact that Legion still has to deal with a 4 second stun everytime they use Feral Frenzy is beginning to make Feral Frenzy more of a detriment than a helpful power, as using it during a chase will allow a survivor to most likely get to another pallet or window, thereby removing the possibility of it being a tool to end chases, making Feral Frenzy even more useless.
Overall, Legion is definitely getting an overall nerf. Feral Frenzy gives no real upsides aside from the 12 confirmed seconds a survivor won't be on a generator. It cannot be used to end chases, it cannot be used for any meaningful slowdown, it is just a mess. Legion seriously needs a complete rework at this point.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
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I just want you to explain how did the changes to legion and nurse make them more fun playing as.
If you want me to be honest, I wouldn't say the change made him more fun to play as but more fun to play against.
You see, old Legion had a lot wrong with him, and survivors had no counterplay. Every chase against a Legion puts a survivor on a timer that they cannot control with their skill — they would eventually go down due to FF hits.
Who thinks facing an opponent that renders your skill useless is fun? I certainly don't.
However, BHVR needed a quick solution, and they had to sacrifice some of the killer's fun for make playing against more enjoyable. Admittedly, they should've taken more time to finish the job rather than leaving them like that for a while, but I will assume they were short on time and needed a temporary solution.
Now, with the current buffs on the PTB, he's fun to play as and against — that's BHVR's goal. Sure, it's not perfect, but they are a lot better than before. 😁🤗
Now, Nurse and this is great for me because I actually main her — I can give you a 100% unbiased opinion.
The cool-down on her blinks make landing her blinks feel more rewarding because you have to use them sparingly, you can't use them mindlessly and expect good results.
I can understand how waiting to use your blinks is really lame because you're just sitting there waiting for your blink to recharge. However, it would either be this or longer fatigue, according to the developers — adding a cool-down is definitely preferable for the majority.
Lastly, her add-ons are pretty unique and offer more fun combos to her — they are easier to use unlike before. Sure, some add-ons are terrible and need desperate changes, I'm not going to sugar coat it, but all in all, the positives definitely outweigh the negatives with Nurse. 🤗😁
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As what @Spooky13 said "The removal of synergy with STBFL and Sloppy Butcher allows survivors to completely ignore being injured."
I understand this is being changed for the same reason it was changed for Pig. To make how these perks work universal.
Legion's synergy with these perks are what made Frenzy somewhat worth using. Now, there is even less of a reason to heal against Legion which destroys his power as that IS his power. That being injuring people. You could say that killer instinct is enough of a reason to use it but it's not. The 4 second stun makes using Frenzy to catch up to survivors negligible. Also, it's not hard finding survivors which also limits how useful killer instinct is.
Another upcoming change that hurts Frenzy is to mending times. They have been called a stalling killer but that part of them is being nerfed too. Including their mend add-ons. The increased speed coming with the next patch is nice and is one thing people have asked for but doesn't help much, if at all, to compensate for the above. With that in mind it's easy to come to the conclusion that they are being nerfed again.
I hardly ever saw Legion before so now there will likely be even less once people have finished trying out these new changes. Perhaps that is their goal? Make them so bad that nobody will as play them. If no one plays as them then no one complains about how unfun they are. Though that's not something that would be admitted to. We'll just get "we'll continue to monitor these new changes and adjust as needed."
Tldr: Get ready to move fAsT for a few seconds then eat a 4 second stun bois! Cause that's all we got...
Legion is the reason why someone should be worried as to how BHVR will handle any killer changes. It's been horrible...
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Bhvr listening to 2017 steam complaims aboud doc being annoying.
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They said it's not gonna be a full rework like freddy, but more like tweak for nurse.
So... get ready for doc's legion (since legion and nerf has the same meaning)
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I like how you say exagerated Legion changes.. they gutted his kit back when he was annoying and left him that way for so long. People just fpund a way to somewhat play him with stbfl and sloppy but he wasnt good in anyway.
The nurse got a nerf no one asked for... these kind of things stick with people. And i also love how there arw ptb changes and people are like ok these are alright... not to bad.. amd then after ptb but before release they do more nerfs and then release.. lol.
We know that behaviour can do good.. thats why we are all still here but sometimes the silly things... and the really long times without updates for things can get to us... thus the expected negative results.
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Oh come now, i am sure the devs think about the killer players "fun" and will balance them in a way that is viable and "FUN" to play.
They don't only think about survivors who are more likely to buy cosmetics in the store.
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People find the Doctor frustrating to go against?
uh.
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Yes, don’t touch me except you are beauties. 😘
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Um, I have to disagree HIGHLY with the exaggerating part, at least for Legion. They are already used as a term for making something unfun and worthless to play "Legion'd" and then they nerf them more? That MS buff was not enough, even if the vault speed is sexy.
(You know how long i've played Legion. You know how I feel about the PTB changes even after using them.)
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are you honestly saying what they did to Legion was okay?
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Because people knee jerk whenever a mention of buffing a killer comes out by the devs; we were told before the freddy rework he needed some love and would be next in line after the nurse for such a touch up. That is, they explicitly plan to buff him. And I see no way of them making him super clunky in the same way as they did for Legion, tbh.
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Tbf, they mostly gutted legion, and now, are gutting him even harder as a trade-off for finally having some speed.
But the other two: Nurse is still incredibly strong, (only issue with her, in fact, is dedicated servers seem to cuck her a ton) and spirit feels no different.
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THANK YOU! That is what i keep telling people and why I am so adamant about my Legion Rework thread.They need a rework and a removal of Deep Wounds from the power completely.
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so "Fun to play as" to you is having a completely useless power?
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Thank you. I will always play Legion and always complain about BHVR messing them up, so they will never be rid of it. They need a rework and a removal of Deep Wounds from there power.
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They just got a huge buff recently, BHVR even listened to your feedback by making the button add-ons better. 😁
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Huge buff? Not even. Also, that wasn't just my feed back and MY feedback on the buttons was to apply it from the first hit, not everyone hit AFTER the first hit.
The "Huge Buff" was .2 m/s in FF and .2 seconds off Window Vaults. The biggest part of the "buff" was the Pallet Vault speed which I agree is nice. BUT it's not anywhere near good enough to make up for the faster mending speed and the nerf to the mending add-ons. That and making all the m2 attacks the same, thereby RIPPING perk synergy away from Legion makes them not even a stalling Killer any more. There Power is MORE OF A PUNISHMENT to use. So no, it's not a "huge Buff" at all. It's a nerf with maybe one good thing tacked on so they can claim to have "Fixed Legion" and never touch them again for another 2 years.
"It's something" Shouldn't be how you justify buffs. You wouldn't be happy with maggots to eat cause "At least it's something" unless you were starving to death. Legion needs a whole hell of alot more. They need a complete rework and a removal of Deep Wounds from there power wholesale. Have the rush down without that status making it insanely hard to balance. Give us something BETTER! Not a slightly faster but still useless Killer.
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Sorry for being a bit rough there. But it's in no way a buff to me and I get tired of people saying it is just cause some numbers went up.
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Are you for real?
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Side note for the people somehow still using the stats as a reason despite the devs telling you not too.
51% to 74% is still 2 kills and the less a Killer is played the easier it is to have a high kill rate.
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Whats wrong with that?
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Sorry if this sounds like nitpicking but your analysis of the new nurse has one fault.
Adding a delay or punishment for using your ability does not equal hitting the ability becoming more rewarding. It just makes missing more punishing than before. Which is more likely to happen now thanks to the new reappearance-timing.
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They wanted to get rid of that thing that makes survivors on a timer and then they introduce nemesis and BoP with undetectable.
Why not make nurse just have a cooldown when they successfully hit someone instead of everytime you blink? They made the cooldown change with the intention to disable nurse hitting someone instantly twice. This change that i propose solves a lot of problems.
Its not cool when only 3 or4 combinations of add-ons are useable, they should be ALL useable and not ultra rare that harm you more than help.
About Legion again:
The thing that makes killers unique is their power, and its the reason why you choose that killer to play.
If you are going to nerf a power to make it useable 3 times in a match where you can get a benefit from it (in the case of legion is injuring someone and apply deep wounds to another person, at least). The power is only used in very specific situations and the remaining of the match he is a pure m1 killer. You might as well play clown (an m1 killer that at least has bottles that you can use whenever you want) and is one of the worst killers in the game.
I don't know how you find it fun to use your power 3 or 4 times a match but, after all, it's your opinion and i respect that. I just don't understand it.
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I don't understand it either.
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Removing the stall potential and a variety of builds(decreases the fun by a MILE) for a slight ms buff? Wut?
Also, making 3 add-ons better and the power worse makes 2.5 problems:
- Makes the killer more add-ons dependant.
- Changes nothing to add-on less players like me 90% of the time.
0.5- Maintains the fact that most of their add-ons are useless/do almost nothing or actually harm you.
I'm not complaining about the buffs, i'm complaining about the unnecessary nerfs that were not needed.
I don't think that removing the on-hit effects is consistency because feral frenzy makes legion run faster and ADDS a status effect to their basic attacks. "But basic attacks can down someone and feral frenzy can't" -> another problem of the "rework" done in the patch 2.7.0.
The pig's dash completely changes things even tho it's power related because she crouches and has a charge time to make a dash that covers a gigantic amount of distance.
Legion just lunges. This would be justified if wraith also didn't apply on-hit effects when coming out of the power, spirit is the same, nurse is the same, tier 3 myers is the same ( "the attacks apply the exposed status effect so they are not basic attacks" -> bhvr logic with the legion changes), etc etc
Because they are "power based" just like legion ones are.
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Adding cooldowns to a power that is a big part of the identity of a killer is basically denying them their use so it is not fun. I'm playing that killer, so using their power is why i played that killer. The killer's gamestyles change around that.
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