The reason why the last few killers have been fairly stale releases.
I don't know if it's me, but the last few killer releases have been becoming increasingly stale. My theory for this is is how those killers interacted with skillcaps, leading to killers that didn't need time to learn.
What I mean by skillcap is simply put the amount of skill a player can put into a killer until the point where the kit doesn't allow them to do any more. You can see this easily with a killer like Legion. It doesn't matter how good you are in chases, you reach a limit on how well you can down survivors. This is an example of a killer that will become stale very fast.
A killer like Huntress however has a much higher skill ceiling, allowing for a player to put more skill into her and seeing satisfying results. Cross-map hatchets are a great example as well as predicting a survivor's swerve from a distance where they could react to a fully charged hatchet. These all contribute to a killer that can be enjoyed and explored through countless matches. Nurse is a fine example of this as well, with perfectly predicted 1 blinks on a map like Lery's being among the most satisfying things you can do with her.
While generally, low-skillcap killers aren't very strong, there are a few that pop out that offer no skill-based challenge to gain satisfaction from. Meaning that these killers don't have their feats of skill lime huntress. They do something very well without much skill from the user. The Oni and the Plague are excellent examples.
The Plague is an m1 killer through and through. Her power is only accessible through addons and survivors, making it inconsistent at best. The thing with her is that she can lower the amount of health-states survivors have for almost the entirety of the game. She has to take less time chasing down survivors because of this. And with good perk synergy, she becomes a decently performing killer. But what satisfaction can you gain? You run around m1ing for majority of your matches. This is why she has a terribly low pickrate. Even with her power, there isn't any true feats of skill that show how in tune you are with the power. You get a beam of huntress hatchets, wriggle your mouse left and right and you'll more than likely hit the survivor.
The Oni is shaping to be a top tier killer. His chase potential is lethal and his map pressure is outstanding. He can use his lunge in blood rage to catch up before you reach a pallet and instadown you flat out, or break the pallet. But after you get use to the admittedly janky controlls, what is allowing you to perform? Your skill, or your kit? Once again, there is very little skill you can implement into your play with Oni. But his kit is so strong you really wouldn't need to even if it was possible. With a good underatanding of the basic game mechanics, you can learn most of what there is to learn on Oni in a matter of hours. This makes for a killer that won't keep your attention for too long gameplay-wise.
In fact, the past 4 killers have had this very issue. Most of them fail to keep a player engaged. What is needed is a killer that shakes things up. A killer that's performance is dictaded by the player, not the kit. We need to look at what allows a player to exercise their skill by looking at killers that are all about them. Trapper's trap placements, Huntress's hatchet predictions, Nurse's blink predictions. We need a killer that will make players want to play for hours on end and still have new experiences and strategies. Open ended gameplay is our key. With that, I will leave. Good evening.
TLDR: Recently released killers have been stale because of low skillcap despite them being powerful. We need killers that allow the player to express their skill and not be limited by the kit like many others are.
Comments
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Indeed.
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They're afraid to create another viable killer like nurse.
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↑This.
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And all the perks are niche or bad
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When there was the sequence Pig, Clown, Spirit I really felt like they were on top of their killer designs. (say what you like about the clown I think he's good..)
The ones after that are OK but I have not enjoyed them so much.
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I wish they'd create a killer that's viable with a skillcap like Nurse. After her artificial limitations were added to her basekit it feels so wonky with what seems like so many mechanics battling against you from autoaiming on to corners, to short-blinking on complex geometry, to dedicated servers. She's a shell of what she once was.
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I think you said "viable" instead of "broken". There are reasons why she was nerfed bud
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Seems legit.
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Issue is, a high skill ceiling killer would require having a power to justify putting a lot of time into learning it. Example being the Nurse. Then when you do reach that ceiling the killer becomes problematic to a group of people who then advocate for slight tweakes to make them
easiermore fun to play against.Oni is probable the first killer in a while to actually be fun to play. At least for me, being able to drift around the map is the fun factor. It may become stale later but lets let the novelty play out.
I do agree, for the PC version at least, the Oni's skill floor is much lower than say Billy, Huntress, and Nurse. He is easy to pick up and play and not much reason to grow from there. What could potentially happen in the near future, survivors learn a way to counter his power or to mitigate it. At that point you will be forced to increase your skill level in playing him. Just need to see in time where he stands.
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They keep building the counter play into the killers kit rather than just making a strong killer and letting survivors adapt and figure out the counters on their own.
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You know what would happen? That everyone would cry the killer is not strong enough on launch without practicing enough to understand how to use it.
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Yup. Sadly.
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Devs are afraid of adding powerful killers with good perks. Can’t blame them either, if they add an S tier killer with strong perks they’ll get constant “f devs” “so killer sided #########” “hell were y’all thinking” “nerf this ######### now devs.” Then again for a really strong killer it has to require skill and can’t be a pick up and master.
Flip a coin too. It’s been awhile since survivors had meta changing perks. If they add really good survivor perks, killers will bash the devs. While as broken as MoM was, it was meta changing. However it was strong and took no skill.
Personally the devs need to make a 50/50 chapter but start with strong perks. Ex:
- Killer: After downing 5/4/3 survivors, the next basic attack will instantly down a survivor.
- Survivor: When injured, after unhooking another survivor, both you and the survivor will be passively healed over the course of 20/15/10 seconds.
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It'd be interesting to see some meta changes.
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Oni is insanely good and Demogorgon is an A Tier killer of winning consistently. They're entirely viable.
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Hi Confused I'm dad.
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Oni is the easiest character in the game at loops. He is HORRIBLE at them since the patch. When oni hits rage mode, just run to loops. He can't really do anything now since his curve was nerfed. And demo? Bruh, really? The only good ones lately have been GF(love shroud for stealth) and Freddy's re-work. The rest have been 💩. The devs are afraid to make another all around strong killer because survs will throw a fit. There nerfing the strongest killers already. I bet GF and Freddy are next, mark my words.
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100% agree with this. As time goes out, its going to become harder to justify adding new killers that don't introduce anything new into the game. With that in mind, what does the Oni introduce?
Not one shot mechanics.
Not a sprint attack ability.
Not a limited time mode that makes you more powerful.
There isn't a single new mechanic or even new gameplay style born of the killer. Lets look at the demogorgon. What did he introduce that was brand new?
Not a long attack that is charged up.
Not the ability to break pallets with this attack.
Not being able to teleport to different locations.
In fact, I think the only reason either of these two have been considered different or interesting is their unique audio and ambience, which they did a great job with, but that quickly becomes old and once again leaves a stale taste to the killer. Just like demo, give the oni some time for his flare to die down and it'll just be another killer in the new Billy-Myers-Oni trifecta of instant down killers.
They need to release killers that REALLY change the game and introduce new mechanics. Here's a list of outdated mechanics they could use;
-Fog
-Crows
-Skillchecks
-Luck
This is just a few. There's also been datamined stuff they could introduce as well, such as artifacts.
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I went to get milk but I forgot my wallet. I was so ashamed that I couldn't bring home milk that I decided to just not come back. It's taken me 10 years, but I'm so close to getting that milk. Expect me back in another 10 years.
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I'm dying for a killer that brings something new to the table.
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Ghostface is easily one of the best killers? Plague has some really great moments. I haven’t tried the last two but each killer has brought unique perks that change up all prior killers and their kits.
Nurses, Spirit, Huntress use I’m All Ears. Hillbilly, Myers uses Infectious Fright. Trapper, Hag use Corrupt Intervention. These have been good additions and I think mix the game up really well.
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You mistake broken for OP.
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I would love a mew killer that rewards skill and practice like Huntress or Nurse. Too bad the survivors would riot against anything they can't instantly counter with an unsafe pallet loop.
Every future killer will most likely be a stale mess with niche/bad perks, not to mention with counter play built into their kit. Instead of being something survivors figure out.
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thanks for insulting people and starting arguments.
On a more serious note, you act like the devs releasing an overpowered killer wouldn't be worse than them releasing an under powered one
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Can only pray. I just don't know how they'd pull it off. Maybe a bow&arrow killer that is very risk reward?
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i feel like they thought waay too much about the balancing of the add ons when they created them...
like, all of them have one upside, and then a huge downside attached to them.
like ghostfaces "ghostface cought on tape" - tremendously increases the stalk rate when leaning from cover? - NICE! considerably decreases it when not leaning from cover? - unnecessary. insteat, it should be increasing both imo. the leaning stalk rate can be boosted more than the normal stalk, but the downside is just way too much...
they dont really feel like ultra rares.
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I respect all these opinions, but I quite literally feel the opposite. I feel like these last 2 killers have been some of the best they've ever made, I absolutely love their design and gameplay.
They feel like some of the most effort they've ever put into designs in total, from the animations, the sound design (unique TR + chase music ftw), and models, to just how fun they are to play for me.
Oni's addons are fine to me, but I agree Demo's are the most boring addons they've ever made in DBD.
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I totally agree from a concept and artistic standpoint, they have been doing excellent. What I'm concerned with is that there have been a severe lack of killers that require time and skill to be used effectively like Nurse and Huntress. You essentially know how to play Plague after a few matches, and the same with Oni. I believe there is something special in a killer that you can always learn from, say like learning new trapper trap placements. The new killers have close to none of this.
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Personally I believe Plague and Demogorgon are well designed killers. I have fun playing as and against both of them. I have zero complains other than the fact that survivors can deny Plague her Corrupt Purge (I always get teams who cleanse though even though I’d rather they not cleanse).
Legion is the only BADLY designed killer in my opinion. They’re just awful in every aspect and a chore to play as and against.
I haven’t played as Oni yet so I don’t have a strong opinion. Based off of gameplay I’ve seen I believe he is very strong in the right hands.
We’ve had a few good perks in the past year like Discordance, Infectious Fright, Corrupt Intervention, and Thrilling Tremors. Of course there will be duds and meme perks like Iron Maiden and Dark Devotion but perks are can always can change ya know.
I agree the add-ons are a bit stale though. I love killers that change the way they are played based on the add-ons they use, like Myers and Nurse. Add-ons could use more variety.
I want more high skill cap killers like Nurse and Huntress or killers that have their power based on elemental factors in the trial like the fog or crows. Just something unique and not seen before.
Legion- Terrible
Plague- Strong in the right hands
Ghostface- Strong
Demogorgon- Solid killer
Oni- Very strong in the right hands
I don’t what there is too complain about. Of the past five killers, 4 of the them are strong killers. Other than maybe boredom.
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So you should be fine if we nerf SWF as that's the survivor equivalent of the Nurse.
SWF break the game just as how the Nurse breaks the game.
And don't say why should we be punished by playing with friends, or not all SWF are optimal or sweaty, because the same thing can be applied to Nurse.
The major difference is that Nurse requires a long time to learn how to play her, while SWF takes less time.
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You're absolutely right, these killers are by no means weak, in fact many are very strong. What I am trying to convey is that these killers do not have high skillcaps. Skillcaps and actual strengths are separate. You can have a low skillcap killer that performs very well, Plague for instance. Her power is very easy to understand and use to its fullest potential. I think for the longevity of the game, killers that take time to learn will lead to less stale gameplay and will give us more bang for our buck when it comes to dlc killers. Hag is probably the only payed-for DLC that has a skillcap close to what should be expected of all killers. We have enough easy killers, what we need now is actually hard killers.
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It's funny you say that because it wasn't her over-performing that lead to the changes. Something about the way her power interacted with the game they didn't like so they changed it on the backend and also included some lame ass balance excuse.
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I really dislike the amount of killers they release that rely on their power having a cooldown.
Huntress is one of the most picked killers despite her low killrate, and this is because she is so easy to beat and how one mistake can cost you an entire game. But that doesn't matter because win or loss you can still have a ton of fun going for hatchets.
The best and most fun killers are those with active, engaging powers, and killers that can use their skill to win against a survivor, are much more rare these days because the devs are too afraid to make really good killers without huge downsides/counters.
The only M1 killer I enjoy is GF because I've always wanted a killer that could completely remove their red stain and their terror radius, and T1 Michael/T2 with addons was the only one that came close. Unfortnuately GF is tied to his powers CD.
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Was Ghost face release stale though? I remember being insane with all the nerfs and buffs and now he's a super popular killer.
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Addons yes, basekit no.
Honestly, both of them are okay. Oni needs to M1 to get his power. Survivors can easily deny that by dropping pallets early. Demo got mostly QoL problems like non-turnabke camera after shred and insanely much noise.
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That is completely understandable. I feel the exact same way.
Hag doesn’t really have a high skill cap. You have to know the map layout and know where to place traps and herd survivors into your traps. I guess she’s a bit more of a strategic killer as opposed to Nurse and Huntress who are more mechanical harder to use. I believe she should be labeled as “Hard” instead of “Intermediate” as she does take a bit of skill and prediction to use properly. I just don’t find her that hard. Whenever I play Hag I tend to crush everyone and snowball easily and I don’t have as many hours on Hag as I do other killers.
Spirit and Oni are payed DLC that do not have a low skill cap. They are probably on the same level of “harder than most killers, but still not a high skill cap”. You won’t just pick them up instantly and be great with them, but they are nowhere near as hard to play as Nurse and Huntress.
One reason I think they release “low-skill cap” killers is because it is A LOT harder to play them on console. It is hard as hell to play Nurse and Huntress due to low sensitivity :/
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If you think Oni is horrible at loops you haven't watched anyone good actually play him. He's nuts because of his flick. Sure you can't 180 anymore, but the 90 degree flick is still nuts and can work at almost every loop you use it at. Also, Demogorgon is a very good killer because of his ability to zone and stop longer loops with his shred, not to mention, he can control perks like STBFL, which makes him even stronger. GhostFace is a worse killer than both of them.
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Yeah, no doubt he's a very strong killer. What I'm trying to get at is that his and the last few chapters worth of killers have had lacking skillcaps. It doesn't take a whole lot of time to become proficient with Oni unlike Nurse and Huntress. You don't have that seemingly endless application of power those two and a few others like Trapper and Hag. I think that future killers would benefit from being hard to use in a good way, with seemingly limitless applications. That's all.
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I play on ps4. Go try oni. There is no flick. It doesn't exist there. And GF smokes either one of them if you know what your doing. GF has zero TR and no red stain, and has the ability to one shot. Run tru3's build and he's almost unstoppable.
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I know he doesn't on PS4. Its 45 degreaser instead of 90. I'm speaking in terms of home at his fullest potential, which is on PC. GF is nowhere near better than either of them. His power is to basically take his TR away for a small amount of time. No red stain means nothing because you literally can do that at all times if you can actually moonwalk. His ability to hide his TR at times is the only thing that makes him slightly better than Myers. Other than that, he's just a better Wraith.
Tru3s build works against braindead survivors. Its 5 extra seconds of heal time, and Thanata adds like a solid 8 seconds to gens permitting you're able to actually keep them injured consistently. Even then, that's nothing verse a good team. PGTW is still better than both of those perks combined.
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Ghostface and Demogorgon having a low skillcap. OOF. I mean, they definitely aren't the highest, but you need to be extremely strategic in how you play them.
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Except that the stats showed us that the killers with the highest pick rates are Spirit, Billy and Freddy. None of them really has a high skill cap, their powers aren't hard to use after getting used to them and average players can still do good with them. So it doesn't look like players really like high skill based killers, especially because they can be very frustrating to play as an average player.
I also don't like killers like Nurse, who feels sluggish to play as or Huntress, who gets rekt by map design so hard, that her skill cap becomes irelevant. I gladly would play Plague over these 2 anytime.
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That's where you and everyone else disagrees. Her basekit was broken, maybe you just didn't see it at the time.
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I'm not intending to be a downer here, but is the issue not simply that the game mechanics are quite limited and you can't shake the boat too much without it becoming an issue?
If a killer cannot be looped, survivors will hate that killer, meaning every single release must be within that context (I'm not saying that's an unjustified desire for survivors, just pointing it out), and that's a tough one to get creative with.
How many unique killers can a game like dbd seriously accommodate?
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The only argument for the basekit nerf people come op with: "She can ignore every survivor defense and has no counterplay, there for she should be legioned."
(completely ignoring a huge amount of people showing counterplay possibilities and weaknesses of nurse)
What's your argument for the basekit nerf? Or did i mention yours already?
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The only argument for the basekit nerf people come op with: "She can ignore every survivor defense and has no counterplay, there for she should be legioned."
(completely ignoring a huge amount of people showing counterplay possibilities and weaknesses of nurse)
What's your argument for the basekit nerf? Or did i mention yours already?
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She really had no reasonable counter play, if a Nurse was accurate there was nothing you could do. Now she has a window of counter play built in. More skill required? Yes. Nerfed to Legion Level? No. Still the best killer in the game? Yes.
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As expected. The only argument is: "She had no counterplay."
Ok then.
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High Skill Cap Killers are just M1 Killers to 90% of the Player Base.
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