"Hook someone else to deactivate DS" - I don't think this is a good idea. Here is why.
There's one thing about DS that I've read a few times now. DS should not work when the killer hooks another survivor. But why? Personally I think DS is a very powerful perk but not OP or something. Imo it is in a good spot. The problem I see with the "hook another survivor to deactive DS" is:
A killer could basically (semi-)camp a survivor. If another survivor tries to help and unhooks him the killer might be able to bring them both down. Hook the fresh survivor to get rid of the DS, then smack the poor first guy back on the hook. Even if BT is involved the unhook would not be always "safe". Even useless against Freddy for example.
Another example: Let's say you put someone on the hook and see a survivor in the distance (thanks to BBQ or another perk). You down the other survivor while the first survivor gets unhooked. Now you hook the sec survivor and see the first guy again. You could even be really dirty and intentionally wait for someone to unhook the first guy so you can hook the second guy and go right back to the first one. You could basically just walk up to him and hook him again. He wouldn't be able to do #########.
I also don't remember the Devs saying that DS is anti-tunnel ONLY. I love this perk. No... not because I'm a bad killer or an entitled survivor main. I love it because it has an amazing effect on the game (at least imo). I could explain why I like this perk but this thread is already long enough lol.
I am playing both sides equally (more or less) on high ranks btw.
Comments
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The perk isnt healthy..never has been..but rather a necessary evil..however I do say its end game effects should he looked into
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It is supposed to be anti-tunnel.
The Killer should NOT be punished by a Survivor's bad plays. Neither of the above examples are tunneling.
You just seem to want to give Survivor's a second chance after they make a bad play.
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It could deactivate if someone is hooked while you aren't in the dying state.
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It should absolutely deactivate if someone else is hooked. If someone else has been hooked, it's impossible that you are being tunneled in that moment. Period.
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its really is as simple as that, I don't see why this is such a controversial topic
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Can't agree. If the killer manages to get 2 downs and hook the other guy in under 60 seconds, survivors seriously misplayed.
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I like my protection against idiot survivor plays as much as against tunneling killers, which I come across so often DS is mandatory now. Stop thinking the killer is the only one that can suffer from other survivors, unless you are endorsing all survivors should only play swf.
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its supposed to be anti tunnel, but its not supposed to be ONLY anti tunnel. and fine lets ner ds even more, but lets get rid of NOED while we are nerfing crutches. If you disagree you just seem to want to give killers a second chance after they make get ######### on the whole game but "muh but he gen rushed they couldve done totems even tho im a trashcan and i need noed to even get a kill" even better, we could bring back old ds ? :D
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The constant comparison by survivor mains between DS and NOED always makes me laugh. Apples to Oranges.
If you get killed by NOED, you are a mediocre at best survivor.
Simple as that. I NEVER get hit by NOED. I destroy totems. There's only 5. I do that for my team, and I pip nearly every game. Even if I die. How do you counter DS? There's no way to stop it from ever coming into play. In fact, survivors rub it in the killers face by throwing themselves at the killer knowing that in that moment, they are invincible.
OOF. Comparing those two perks.
KEK
DS should not proc if someone else has been hooked. As I stated, if someone else has been hooked, you are not being tunneled. That means the only time DS would come into play otherwise is if you're cocky and throw yourself at the killer. End of story.
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The only thing DS has done is make me tunnel more. If I remotely suspect you have it and I get the chance, I will force you to burn it so it doesn't bite me during the EGC.
Easiest fix for it is to disable during the EGC, then it would be a perfectly fine perk.
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Killers have plenty of insta down options. If you camp, it's not hard to force a trade off. Why shouldn't survivors get sec chances to make up for it when you have noed, make your choice, 1 hit down chainsaws and add ons? Only killers are allowed to have second chances huh?
Tunneling is easy and cheap and the hooked surv has no say in how they are saved/farmed. Killers should not be able to put someone straight back on the hook without a fight. Any half decent killer can camp and secure a solid 2k just by afking at the hooks before survs complete all gens.
Like tunneling is hard and involves big brain plays and shouldn't need a counter lol.
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I never understood why ds is considered an anti tunnel perk. Wouldnt it make you want to tunnel them even more after the 5s stun? and the fact that they are most likely a 1 shot? If im not running an obsession perk and there is an obsession i just slug them. In the rare chance someone gets a ds off on me i then actually tunnel them because nobody likes DS.
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Sometimes you will continue to be tunneled. More often than not I do get away after a d strike. Many team mates will help get you away as well. But if the killer does continue tunneling me, hes just wasted a lot of time and I now get to waste more of it. It penalizes killers going for cheap shots at the hook. Either I waste more of his time depending on how good he is in chase or I get away. Just depends.
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I would say that make DS timer to go double speed, IF you go repair generator or get fully healed. When these conditions happen you are not being tunneled, just carried with extra safety nets. So if you get unhooked DS activates and you go repair generator right close to killers face= get only 30 seconds immunity while working on the gen
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Ds is a poorly designed perk with now zero counterplay except for slugging due to the enduring nerf. 9/10 times i am able to catch the ds guy in under a minute and finish him off, it only encourages tunneling imo by annoying the killer.
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But there is a counter. Slug, down the rescuer or dont tunnel. If the chase was long you only have to slug for a few seconds longer. If you downed him immediately you can slug and bait other survs into attempting to pick him up. Clearly it was not the devs intention to allow killers to easily rehook survs the second they get off. Fix cheap hook tunneling and then we can nerf ds. Killers tunnel for free. Survivors require a perk to counter it a lot of the time.
This idea that killers have no room to work around ds is silly. Killers get around it in my games all the time. Half the time I don't even get to use it.
Ds is poor in that it is a bandaid but this entire game is covered in bandaids on all sides. You cant nerf ds without nerfing other things acting like theres no blatant issues survivors have to deal with too.
Camping and tunneling should be situational and require strategy, not a guarantee for free hooks.
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Why do you killers try to bury every good survivor perk into the ground? This perk is fine the way it is.
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I've seen it suggested to have DS deactivate if the survivor performs an action like working on a gen or attempting a hook rescue. That doesn't seem like a bad idea. Then, a survivor can't use DS to hook save/work on a gen/cleanse a totem in the killer's face.
DS also shouldn't be able to be used during the EGC or if there's only one survivor left. Hell, at two survivors left it becomes ridiculous to punish the killer for attempting to re-hook a survivor.
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Or if you get fully healed.
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You tell that to legion who keeps getting kicked while in a hole in the ground during the Vietnam war.
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So I’m going to tally up a lot of what I’m seeing from everyone, this post and previous posts:
DS is supposed to be an Anti Tunneling Perk.
DS pre change was easier to deal with since only the obsession had to be juggled, as anyone else running it had to wait part way into wiggling.
Due to the previous point, there are many who believe the DS change was in fact a “Buff,” since everyone can get it off upon being picked up, with the only nerf being the conditional requirement.
The DS stun was originally buffed to counter Enduring, since originally Enduring would cut the stun time down to almost 1.5 seconds. After the Enduring change, DS was not nerfed, and left with a 5 second stun.
People have suggested DS be nerfed again. Possible nerfs include timer decreasing faster while healed/repairing a generator, effect negated when a Survivor other than you is hooked, and delaying when being grabbed from a locker so the killer can drop you in the case of accidental finding.
People have made comparisons between DS and NOED, the same as Adrenaline and NOED. Continuing with the comparison, contrasts have been made in how to counter each perk.
My opinion:
I come from Identity V, where as Killer you have to deal with illusions, flashlight stuns, football charge stuns, pallet stuns, cowboy saves, perfume heals, magnet shoves, boar shoves, Flare Gun Stuns, and probably more I’m not remembering. DS is a pain in the butt, yet so are flashlights and keys. I think the big issue, is time. Again, IV has a crap ton of stuns and CCs against the killer, however Cipher Progress takes a long time initially as well. So, long stun times make sense. However, in DBD, Gen speed is super quick, so having super long stuns is extremely dangerous on the killer. Getting DS into Head On essentially gives the Survivor team 30 charges on generators, almost half of a generator. And that dual stun pairing comes from 1 Survivor, so that is extremely plausible. Granted, this is a discussion on DS, which gives approximately 15 charges, which is almost a fourth. However, that’s ruling out all speed up/down perks and items.
I think if they nerfed the stun by 1 second (4), that’d be sufficient, if they gave Killers a few more slowdown mechanics within the game (actual slowdown, not Ruin which does diddly squat except give the Survivors a free Hex to cleanse late game.) I don’t think that DBD needs a massive slowdown, but I even think just increasing gens to 85 charges from 80 would be healthy. If they don’t want to give additional slowdown, change the DS stun to 3 seconds.
EDIT: number fixes.
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It's not about "ruining a good perk." It's about fixing problematic interactions.
DS is an anti-tunneling tool, and it's become problematic because people instead use it as a 60 second invincibility tool to play aggressively, or to be saved when the killer didn't actually do anything wrong, the survivor just sucks at the game.
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Having D strike up during the end game collapse is like giving the survivors a card to trouble the killers chases just to leave him crying when you gain enough distance with D strike. This would completely fix this problem D strike should be deactivated when another survivor is hooked.So now after that nerf borrowed time should be "Once a survivor unhookes you, the perk is activate and allows you to take a hit without putting you into the down state once.The simple fact that you have to rely on someone to have borrowed time is so silly.This affect should not be able to activate while broken.For the simple fact that wasting time for the killer is important and if you try to get yourself off the hook and use new borrowed time it's would probably lead to you getting gen rushed.Teh if that ain't the usual though since my totem gets broken in 2 seconds.
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It's not a survivior's fault for being unsafely unhooked.
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Thank you survivors just love gen rushing and talking about killers are op already don't nerf any survivor perks.
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Exactly, this is what people seem to dont understand, btw everyone keep saying that idea since 2019 lol
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You're getting punished by YOU'RE OWN MISTAKES, stop using this as a argument gosh, you can easily slug the survivor and wait the 60s... is that to hard? and that's a lot of pressure, cause if you down someone else you are slugging 2 survivors, and the other 2 survs should go and heal these slugged survs...
IT BENEFITS YOU..
Maybe stop doing mistakes and say this are survivors bad plays.
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Oh yeah, let's deactive a perk that is anti tunneling, in the end game, where you are 100% being tunneled, awesome fix.
How about we stop crying about it, if survivors make it to the EGC you failed at doing you're objective, protect generators, so that's your fault.. survivors should not get punished for it
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It is powerful at the endgame but you always have the option to eat them on the start of the match. That is what I do
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From what I can tell there is a way to counter every single perk. Except for decisive strike. At the end game collapse if they've only been hooked once they have an automatic ticket to get out safely depending on where they are in the map. There is no way to counter that unless you let them sit for 60 seconds but then Lord knows how far they'll crawl and then you'll get body blocked at the hook. they're at least needs to be some way to counteract besides waiting a whole minute.
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"A killer could basically (semi-)camp a survivor. If another survivor tries to help and unhooks him the killer might be able to bring them both down. Hook the fresh survivor to get rid of the DS, then smack the poor first guy back on the hook. Even if BT is involved the unhook would not be always "safe". Even useless against Freddy for example."
Can't the fresh Survivor heal up and get back up with someone's help while the DS Survivor is being chased? If the DS Survivor isn't able to make it far from the Killer after someone else took a hit for them (this is assuming they took a hit already before they could make the unhook) so teammates can get the fresh Survivor back on their feet), I'd say that's more likely on them for not being able to keep the Killer busy. The only exception to this I can really see is Leatherface chainsawing both people on the spot, but then that's just on the unhooker for being a dumdum.
"Let's say you put someone on the hook and see a survivor in the distance (thanks to BBQ or another perk). You down the other survivor while the first survivor gets unhooked. Now you hook the sec survivor and see the first guy again. You could even be really dirty and intentionally wait for someone to unhook the first guy so you can hook the second guy and go right back to the first one. You could basically just walk up to him and hook him again. He wouldn't be able to do [BAD WORD]."
At that point, the Killer is now occupied hooking someone else while the unhooked Survivor can now be healed back to full probably pretty easily. Sure DS won't save you in this instance, but you have now safeguarded yourself from being instantly downed again. That to me seems reasonable.
Currently, I am totally fine with the following changes being made to DS:
1) DS deactivates when the Killer hooks someone else.
2) The DS person has a small grace period of a few seconds where hooking someone else won't deactivate DS.
3) DS timer is paused while DS user is in the Dying State to make it so that the Killer can't just slug someone to wait out the timer.
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Protecting gens isn't the killers end goal killing survivors is that's why perks like noed and blood warden exist
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*kills everyone with Remember Me, Blood Warden, and NOED*
IT'S OK GUYS, I'VE ALREADY FAILED!
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*three RBT timers activate*
*Pig immediately opens the Exit Gate*
MY FRIENDS. THE GAME HASN'T ENDED. IN FACT. IT'S ONLY BEGUN.
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Both your scenarios don't describe why hooking someone else to deactivate DS is a bad idea.
If the killer is camping a survivor in your first scenario like that then he has thrown the entire game in the first place. Not to mention even if he did do that you could tap that guy off the ground while he was picking up and going to hook the first guy that went to save.
Your second scenario isn't even tunneling. If he saw someone else in the distance, went and downed them and then hooked them to come back after the first hooked guy then you weren't tunneled at all. Your team was slow at making a rescue.
The devs did indeed also say that DS's function was to prevent tunneling. If you literally need them to include exactly the word "ONLY" to justify it then you could stretch that to basically anything.
Even it wasn't "ONLY" meant for tunneling, it is simply way too strong, that's the point. It does way too much with zero downsides and asking nothing of you.
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So a survivor should get punished for a killer’s bad play? The killer does have the choice to either pick up the survivor or take him out of the locker. Both decisions benefit the killer because it stops the survivor from making any progress on gens or healing.
So in my opinion, it’s either you accept ds on how it is now or look for other method that the killer can’t abuse.
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Blood Warden is another second chance perk and that's all.
"The killer's main objective is to stop survivors"
Basically from repairing gens, if survivors repaired 5 gens they got their objective done, and the killer failed, should the survivor be punished for killers mistake?
No.
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It literally says they fail if "the survivors manage to escape."
The word "generator" is not even mentioned in their objective.
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"Killers cannot die, but will fail if the Survivors manage to escape."
Not "if the Survivors manage to finish all the generators."
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The official wiki says:
"Meanwhile, Survivors will be attempting to repair 5 Generators
in order to power the 2 Exit Gates
and make their escape. Killers should do everything in their power to stop them."
And btw survivors should not get punished by doing their objective, If survivors did their objective (repair 5 gens) they should shouldn't be punished.
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The wiki is not managed by the devs and is not officially endorsed by the devs. I would not use the specific wording of the wiki to bolster your argument.
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What argument?
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The survivors were able to make the goal of repairing the generators, should the killer's goal exceed that?
Survivors did their OBJECTIVE, which is to repair generators and escape (1/2) so they get rewarded for it, why should killers being upset about survivors being rewarded for completing their objective?
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I think the problem of DS is that 1 minute is way too long, killers who tunnel will let you slug on the ground for a minute if they have to, but that also means killers who just happen to come back on you wont have the right to hook you again even if they did a lot of things before it.
Plus survivors have the bad habit of using DS has a forcefield and doing whatever they want during a full minute. DS should either be reduced to 45 seconds, or deactivate if you start working on a gen / unhook someone else. So DS protect them, but they wont be able to do whatever they want (they can still heal themselves/heal the others/break totems etc)
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According to the very manual you linked: "As a Survivor, your main objective is to escape the level through one of two metal gates. To be able to escape, Survivors must repair generators. These generators are scattered across the level. To be able to open the gate, a minimum of five generators must be repaired. This in turn activates the gates and Survivors can now open a gate and escape."
Doing generators helps you reach your main objective, but your main objective is to escape. :P
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It says on the wiki killers have been tasked by the entity to hunt down and sacrifice every survivor before they escape
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Literally made an account to remind that the other side controlling your perks is actually really common for killer.
Hexes. Spirit Fury after the first time. Blood Warden. BBQ. There are a TON of killer perks that the survivors can pretty much negate by their actions.
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"Before they escape"
Survivors did 1/2 of their objective (repair generators, escape)
Survivors should not be punished for it, and as @TAG say i just found that the wiki isn't managed from BHVR workers.
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As I mentioned, survivors did 1/2 their objective, is that to hard to understand?
And do you see those 4 gens that need to be completed? that's what survivors should achieve to sucesfully escape the match and complete their objective (if they manage to do the gens they have 1/2 of their objective already done)
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The game isn't over till they escape through the exit gates or through hatch that's why even if the survivor team has utterly failed with 5 gens the last person can still use the hatch to escape
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