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Just a comment about the motivation behind the Ruin update
Hi!
Just wanted to address one common concern I've seen from the community. "They nerfed Ruin so it wouldn't be hard for new Survivors."
That's not quite what the intention was. This is subtle, but bear with me.
New Ruin is in fact really brutal for new Survivors... because it is insidious. They have no idea what's happening, and they struggle to get gens done at all. That little zap effect when you take your hands off a gen? Barely noticable to a new player who's panicing because of the L3 Terror Radius they are hearing. It's not even noticable that the gen is regressing twice as fast as if the Killer had damaged it.
What we wanted to do was not "make it easy for new players" but "make it less frustrating for new players". In playtests with newer Survivor players, it was 4k with 4 or 5 gens up almost every time. But they didn't hate their time in the game as much because those red skill checks weren't in their faces.
I'm looking forward to playing on the PTB with some of you tomorrow; see you in the Fog!
Comments
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It doesn't matter what the intention was. The fact of the matter is that it IS easier for new players now. And older players. And experienced players. And everyone in between. Time to drop ruin harder than I dropped nurse.
Post edited by Cetren on146 -
You made Ruin easier for new survivors but failed to understand why it was meta in the first place.
That's what most of these posters are angry about. Not Ruin being nerfed, but you guys refusal to admit the core game is flawed.
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Are you going to do anything to help new killer players???
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And when it flops and survivors genrush and gens get done within 5 minutes and the killer cant do ######### about it? I understand really i do but gen speeds were already fast enough in the high ranks and now you made it worse...
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I completely agree with you Almo: Against new players, new Ruin is going to be terrifying. Against experienced players, they will know the moment they see sparks what's going on, and Ruin will not last into the lategame, which is what I've seen people say is what the intent behind the perk is now, to be a lategame perk. Which is fine...except DH doesn't last into the midgame over half the time, and that perk shows literally no benefit until the midgame.
I don't use current Ruin, I dislike the dependence I get on it when I use it. So this isn't me being salty about losing my favorite perk. This is me being genuinely confused how a perk used in 80% of red ranked games was changed to be more or less useless in red rank games.
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Oof
So disconnected from their own game
Shame to see it
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When most people say "They nerfed Ruin so it wouldn't be hard for new Survivors.", they are implying "make it less frustrating for new players". I don't think that is really a point of confusion that most players are having.
The issue is nothing has been even addressed about WHY over 80% of the killers are using the perk. This change probably needed to happen, but AFTER you fix the reason WHY it's being used this much. That is why people are angry.
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The new ruin should atleast be it's old 5% 2% sounds like barely anything
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Also many of us have learned totem spawn points and how to hit great skill checks. Just like any other game or sport you have to work to get better. if we can do it then anyone can.
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What is the point of a skill check then if it doesn’t require skill?
If the survivors don’t have the skill to hit “greats”, that’s the time they would spend looking for the Ruin, which is approximately the time they would spend doing a generator while failing skill checks.
It was always meant to slow down the game to allow the killer a chance at a snowball effect.
Now it won’t matter because survivors can choose to cleanse it when it gets too powerful, just look at Huntress Lullaby.
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That's what you got out of all these posts blowing up the forums? That one tidbit of information? Come on now...
How about our sound bug? Or is that just whatever?
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And yet people still complain about totem spots eventually any person who plays dbd will know every exact spawn
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What do you mean 2%? It's .5% per second. And that's only at the highest level of it. A survivor spends 50 seconds a gen and it'll take 100 for it to regress to 0.
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Let's just see what happens tomorrow :)
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Alright, so if it is more brutal for new survivors.
Then what about experienced survivors? If I saw sparks flying the moment I stop working on a gen or realize a gen has less progress than before. I would know Ruin is in play, and I would not stop working on that gen.
Even if the killer can drive me off a gen, he can only focus on one person at a time. So another person can go back and work on that gen if I am being chased.
I fail to see how this will be helpful to anyone. And I really dislike Ruin. Like heavily dislike it.
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thought it went 1 then 1.5 and then 2? Oh I'm absolutely dumb apologies lol
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Its going to get to a point to where theres nothing a killer can do. next you guys are gonna increase the speed at which you open exit gates and nerf remember me 🙄
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Of normal regression rate. When a killer spends the...2 seconds? kicking a generator it starts regressing at .25% per second. 1x that rate is the same. 1.5x is ~.375%. 2x is .5%.
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Why would remember me be Nerfed again
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Us killer mains hate having to waste a perk slot on ruin.
But we do... why? Because at rank 1 you will get steamrolled if you make even a small amount of mistakes. Gens go so fast... ruin gives us breathing room.
New ruin? Just an excuse to gen jockey with prove thyself
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Thank you for clarifying this and it is a good change, but old ruin used to be a band-aid fix for a huge and important problem. When a killer chased one survivor, the other three survivors could complete 3 gens in only a minute and a half. The stress and pressure that created on killers to use that one or maybe two hooks to make a comeback was enormous, and often games would end before killers had a chance to play well and potentially make a comeback.
In addition to new ruin removing that possibility for games to last long enough that killers have a chance. the patch notes truly showed a terrible bias in the devs. Everything you said was about survivors being too frustrated or killers not having enough risk. You even reworked the Doctor, a very unfun, weak, and unpopular killer, and didn't even try to think about the killer perspective. It sounded like you were perfectly fine with how unfun doctor was for killers but still irked by survivor's experience against the doctor. After this rework, most killers will drop doctor and never play him again in a week because he's STILL weak, he's STILL unfun, and he's STILL a bad killer and the survivor experience won't fix that. You don't have to be killer biased but please don't be so survivor biased.
tl;dr please fix gen times and please don't be survivor biased although helping new survivors is fine. Also please buff doctor.
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Um, regressing a gen by missing a great skill check caused new and experienced players to abandon generators to look for the totem. It gave killers like trapper and hag some time to set their traps, and clown and plague some time to disperse the survivors and add some early pressure. Now that is gone, and will only force those killers to entirely switch to another perk such as Corrupt Intervention.
Now it seems like Ruin will only be beneficial in endgame, where it was never really needed. What will happen with the new Ruin will be the killer will get across the map, find survivors on a gen, said survivors will scatter, killer will target one, and the other survivors will just creep back to it and power through it, negating any regression. Unless the killer is now always expected to stop chases in order to always be next to a gen.
Heck survivors wont even notice Ruin is active in the beginning of the match with how fast they can power through gens, especially when one or two of their teammates are proficient at looping or distracting, or they accidentally run into the lit totem.
Hopefully, I'll be proven wrong, if not, expect more killers to stop playing.
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You guys literally didn't address the entire reason Ruin was used. That's the issue. And with or without Ruin, low rank survivors get 4Ked all the time. I've been at low ranks. I've played with friends. They get 4Ked Ruin or not. It's called learning. Starting as a Killer is easier to understand and play when the Survivors have no idea how to loop or do the objective. What Killer even has Ruin at low ranks? I haven't seen some Rank 18 running Ruin unless they're a Hag. You guys are so disconnected from your community its astounding the game has managed to survive this long. Love this game to bits, but you guys need to get your decision making together and better analyze the core issues.
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I was alluding to the fact that devs are making it easier for survivors to escape.
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You made it less frustrating for newer survivors by making it easy for newer players. We understand perfectly well. You are splitting hairs with your explanation and going "Well technically..." the issue is that you fail to understand why it was so popular (or at least never mention any understanding) and that insanely biased dev blog.
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They already did that. To be fair doing it again wouldn't surprise me.
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Okay. How about making DS less frustrating for new players? Hell, for seasoned players too! With new killers going up against red rank survivors these days due to the atrocious matchmaking (which apparently you guys are just going to hide instead of fixing, KEK), I think that should be addressed.
Also - since ruin is no longer there to slow the progress of generators, how about nerfing perks like Prove Thyself and Leader accordingly? You're making Ruin useless, may as well make them useless too.
The fact is, you did TERRIBLE research on this supposed "data" before you committed to this nerf. Like everyone else has said, you saw something being used a lot, and nerfed it. You didn't ask the CRUCIAL balance question of WHY it's used a lot. That's called negligence.
The fact that you're nerfing an ALREADY WEAK killer, and a slow down perk to make it less frustrating for the people it's supposed to assist in DEFEATING...is backwards as all hell. This is why BHVR is a meme.
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We know that the playerbase hasn't been growing for 1,5 years. But new survivors are also not going to stay with the game when they have to wait 10 minutes for a lobby. And veterans might also leave.
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this^^
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You are making it easier for every one new and old players and you failed to see why it was used so much in the first place and instead of fixing that issue you ignore it
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I understand the regression penalty is a pain for new players, I've experienced it myself when I started playing the game, but I wish you would still keep the hex skill checks that denies the progression bonus, because that is what made the hex useful against good survivors who can consistently hit the hex/great skill checks.
Consider it.
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New players are important, I get that. But as veteran player I feel ignored. Like no one cares what red ranks look like. I supported the game since beginning and everytime dbd gives some support back I feel like its for the new players. Thats more frustrating for me than missing every ruin skillcheck
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And where is your concern for killers, new and experienced, that are flat out getting bullied by toxic SWF thanks to your team's bad map design and broken perks/add ons? How exactly are we supposed to deal with a genrush that can be done in under 5 minutes by three people? You think that's not the most frustrating thing in the game?
You just gave those types of players the biggest weapon possible. But by god, at least it's not frustrating for new survivors.
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Thank you. You just proved EVERYONE'S point. You took a perk that's used 80% in red ranks an gutted the dam thing. Without fixing WHY it's used so much. To make new players happy. Instead of them having to try and get better. There's some good logic.
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Survivors won't know ruin is active because they literally won't see it in action. Killer can only chase one at a time so even if two people were working on a gen and stop for a second when the killer comes, one survivor will pretty much be right back on the gen. The regression will be so minimal it might as well not even be there.
This might make it "less frustrating" for new players but it completely kicks more experienced players below the belt.
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Thanks for the post. I actually agree with what you are saying. Ruin is very frustrating for new players. The changes would fix that while still being effective late game. But I genuinely believe that you guys are overlooking how large of a change this actually is to the game. Any experienced player will tell you how "snowbally" this game is. So much depends on the first couple of minutes. If a killer loses 2-3 gens during the first hook event then that game is basically over.
And experienced survivors with every pallet available on the map can pretty easily stall for at least a minute. And that is all it takes. If it takes 10-20 seconds to find the first survivor. 30 seconds to a minute to down them. Another 5 to 10 seconds to hook them. By the time you even get to another generator to push them off the gen is done. The entire game is downhill from there.
Hex: Ruin was the ONLY perk that effectively slowed down generator progress at the start of the game. Notice that I said "effectively". Even against good survivors that could hit 50% or more great skill checks. In all honesty, I would be fine with the Ruin nerf if something is done about snowballing.
For example if the following measure was put in the game, I don't think there would be near the uproar. Survivors have a 20-25% repair penalty while all 4 survivors are alive and no one is hooked or in the dying state. Survivors gain 10% bonus to repair speed for each missing survivor (dead or LD). This would naturally slow the start of the game when survivors are strongest and mitigate some of the advantage the killer gets when survivors die. Just blame the entity. He wants to enjoy the hunt more.
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Just confirms it to me again how disconnected you are from your own game and community.
GG devs, keep going with your nonsense. What could go wrong right?
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If Ruin is being ‘reworked’ into what it is now, then it should be taken into consideration that gen time should be reworked as well. This perk is now ultimately useless because it ENCOURAGES Survivors to sit on gens so that they don’t get punished, in which, original Ruin made you have to decide whether or not you should go find the totem or power through it. And this isn’t a problem with you specifically, Almo, but most of the developers seem to ignore the fact that when the community demands for you guys to listen, it should probably be taken into account that maybe you shouldn’t change perks like this until you address the main core mechanics with the game. Ruin was good for most Killers because of the generator time, but now has ultimately become god awful to use at all ranks. And new players shouldn’t be the excuse that you guys always fall back to in order to try and calm the hate you’re all getting from these kinds of changes because it’s getting old. No new player would WANT to play the game anyways with how it currently is. I’ve invited MANY of my friends to come and play this game and many have quit due to poor optimization, horrid mechanics, awful balancing, and/or ridiculous changes to things they found fun/amazing to use.
TL;DR
Stop trying to fix a god damn flesh wound with Hello Kitty bandaids and fix your mistakes before you make drastic changes.
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I think R20 baby survivors also know fix one gen completely, and then fix another gen, but dev don't know.
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Typical response noone cares the motivation, just the result.
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It's really hard not to notice the glowing thing you have spawn on top of it.
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Can devs kill 4 red rank survivors and get 13 pips without hex: ruins? I think no, because devs never play killer.
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New survivors are going to lose no matter what, most of the time. This change is only going to make the game less fun for high rank killers and survivors. I don’t understand the mentality of balancing around bad players. I’ve literally never heard of anyone complaining about Doctor, but the patch notes said he was “frustrating”.
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I think most of us understand that Ruin is hard on new players. For me personally, I'm just not sure that there's a real understanding as to why so many killers feel it is necessary to run Ruin. I've never heard anyone mention the Gatekeeper as their reasoning. Maps are too large. If I take a killer like Clown, there's a chance I will lose a generator before I even see a survivor on larger maps. Nobody wants to slot a perk to mitigate a design flaw. We aren't running Ruin because it's overpowered. We're running it so we don't lose the game in the first 30 seconds. And also, if the new player experience is such a concern, why is the BP grind still beyond ridiculous?
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Touche
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So new survivors don't know about ruin and instead of adding it to the tutorial the game is just made easier for all survivors? At a time when it's already so easy to pip as survivor that new killers can't find games because every survivor is red rank? Doesn't seem well thought out.
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Amen. I am not sure how the rework of Doctor makes him a better killer to play or play against.
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New survivors didn't like red skill checks.... So your response was to ######### the entire killer community. A bold strategy...
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new survivors: oof I'm doing bad because I don't know what's going on, after the match I should read about that perk. btw having fun
New Killers: cool cool doing nice because the rank I'm at the survivors haven't had time to understand what's going on and haven't identified common totem spots either.
Experienced Survivors: the match hasn't even started and we've cleansed ruin, it's not even a problem anymore, no hex ever lasts to MIDGAME let alone endgame
Experienced Killers: at this point the ability to have a match last more than 5 minutes is incapable, and the only force capable of helping has been slaughtered. please BHVR, find some middle ground making it fine for new players to deal with while making the choice of adding it to builds a good one
BHVR: mmmmmmmm new players are doing great so it's fine
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What we wanted to do was not "make it easy for new players" but "make it less frustrating for new players".
Why do new killer players still have to face frustrating SWF squads if you truly want to "make it less frustrating for new players?" Why do you think that new killer players are forced to take a chance with the current Hex: Ruin to make the game last even slightly bit longer?
If you really care about the new incoming players, maybe it would be a good idea to put more thoughts into ranking and matchmaking issues so that more new killers end up facing more new survivors for more balanced games?
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