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Should Survivors share their sacrifice progress?
Now I imagined this way back- this could help complete the Killer complete their objective easier, in persepective to how the survivors objectives is presented. It could also help against swf and the feeling of not accomplishing anything against their progress. It would finally present a feeling of: Do I really want to save that person? I could die for that because of that save!
How it works now:
When a survivor is hooked he is in the- I dunnu "dormant state"? The second is the struggle phase and then at last he is sacrificed.
The way it would change:
It would be that no matter which survivor is hooked, they follow the three hook rule. The first survivor is put into the dormant state, the second into struggle and the third is sacrificed. This would present a lot of opportunities to survivors, as they could use perks, they would normally only have one chance to otherwise ie. Deliverance, Slippery Meat etc.
This would also take some stress off of the Killer, since he is advancing his objective, while he is chasing all of the survivors, pressuring them. This can also help into actually making survivors scared of being the next victim, since it takes their safety of being sacrificed in three hooks down to one, if their team has been caught two times already. It would cause for more stress in the survivors, which should be the norm in this game anyway. it would cause them to actually try and be stealthy when they really need to be stealthy.
This is mainly a suggestion, I want to see what other people think about this. Do you guys think this can work? What would you suggest to change/view in a different style?
Edit: Some different suggestions / takes on it: Suggestions are also up for changes and open ideas.
-Only groups of swf are affected.
-The progression is bound to a hook and would fade away slowly after the person was unhooked or the progession is gone when the hook is sabotaged.
Comments
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I'd really like to get some different views, because this really is a topic which interest me in this game. It is a 4vs1 after all, it's supposed to be a game with team play, but also with a self preservation aspect. Maybe there could also be the possiblity for two people to share the progress or at the very least make it so swf does it.
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To me, this reads as stronger than an Ebony Mori. I would not be surprised if a number of Survivor perks become really bad with this. DS can become unusuable quite easily, Deliverance is 100% useless, We'll Make it only works for two hooks total, Camaraderie only does anything if you are exactly the second person hooked, Borrowed Time stops working after two hooks.
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Absolutely not....
That would nerf so many perks into uselessness... And not only be incredibly boring, but also stressful and annoying.
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Why does it stop working after two hooks? Let me clarify, you need to hook all survivors 12 times to sacrifice everyone. The perks still have a very good chance to work and borrowed time works for eight of those hooks, since those people are either in struggle or in the dormant phase.
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That would be terrible frankly. Dying on your first chase of the match, in potentially a single hit with exposed effects or powers just because other people got hooked would be insanely bad.
It's like being morid without even having the chance to play.
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How so exactly? To me it would make playing survivor the challenge that it should have been from the start. And why are we only looking at the perks aspect? But if we were to: Deliverance for example would have the chance to trigger more than once, since when you are always the person hooked after one has been sacrificed you are in the dormant state.
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That is what it should feel like though. Do you really want to risk saving someone who is on the hook in the struggle phase, knowing you could be next? You could just let them die, then the sacrifice process goes back to the dormant state. That is the risk of being altruistic. Of course some stuff needs to be looked into, but this would bring in some challenge.
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Ahhh, I see. I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you meant that after hooking any two Survivors, every Survivor was now primed to die on the next Hook. My mistake.
I'm not sure I'd be too thrilled to be in a position to be one-hooked because Mr. Potato Head got hooked twice super fast. You could in theory make it so you hook two weaker players and then kick out the strongest player. Also, how would this work with someone who enters the struggle state because they were left on the hook for too long? Would this mean the next person to be hooked is dead? That doesn't seem fair to Survivors if the Killer chooses to camp. Does the next hook ignore that and go to the struggle state again? Doesn't seem fair to the Killer that the Survivor can be left on the hook for twice as long as normal with no penalty during the first -> second hook phase.
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No, it really shouldn't.
It guarantees that every game leaves people feeling cheated and miserable with sub 10k points for mistakes they didn't make.
The game is supposed to be balanced around everyone getting to play, not one person arbitrarily getting 7 chances because they happened to be chases 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 10, and everyone else dying on first hook instantly.
Everyone deserves a fair chance to play based on their own skill, your suggestion takes that away from the game.
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This just seems like something that could kill the game honestly imagine being a solo survivor and a three person swf get hooked twice and then they sandbag you.
It's punishing players for the mistakes of others... good that you put a option out there but I can see it killing the game for a lot of people
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Your team is only as strong as the weakest link. Yes people could potentially go for the weak guy of the group and then get the stronger one with the third hook. This would call for stealth play of those guys, no more toying around.
To the suggestion with the first to second phase, I'm open to ideas. I think it would be fine for the phase to go as normal, so the third hook would count as being the death hook. Since survivors can go an complete generators, while the Killer camps just fine. It would literally be a race of objective time.
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Why exactly should the Killer Objective made easier? only because the Killer is the Powerrole does not make them deserve the 4K every game.
And to be honest, I would not like to have a Potato on my team who not only wastes all the Pallets, but also is able to put me on Death Hook right away. There would be no point in playing Solo Survivor anymore.
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What would make it so you feel less cheated, if it was implemented in a different way?
You are right on that one, it could be change however that, if you are solo in that group, then you have your three hooks and only the swf group share their hooks.
Maybe even make it so the whole team doesn't have to share hooks, but two of them. So it would not mean an immediate death for someone who is caught. I really just want ideas to see your guys ideas on how the Killers objective can also change a bit with the way the game is expanding.
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I can imagine it working like this; if the entity has been summoned on one hook, it stays summoned on that hook until it gets summoned in a different one. I think this would be a good thing to avoid unsafe hook rescues, farming, sandbagging, abuses of BT and overly altruistic survivors during the egc and demand the survivor to be more careful. It would also make the basement much more scarier.
However, as much as I like how it sounds on paper, because it actually makes the killer and the game a bit scarier, it may be too op to be honest.
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As long as solo players don't get screwed I do not care for swf. I'm just thinking of the consequences swf and solo shared this hook idea because we all know if you are the one solo player they'll see you as the scapegoat and that could turn many off.
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It's not about 4k'ing, I'd be okay with a few survivors buffs, if it meant to make this experience more fun. About the potatoes, I get it, really. So do you maybe hav an idea, how it could be implemented, without it destroying solo que so much?
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I like where your idea is going, smart guy. :D
Maybe it could not change so drastically on every hook though? What if the hook stays in the state, but if a survivor sabotages it, it would set it back one stage? Would finally give sabotage a use again.
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Yeah no, you're totally right, that's why I wanted to listen to different ideas, there is always a flaw in a first draft. The scapegoat part is definitely one of it. So it should definitely affect a swf group, but not rly a solo player as much. I like it.
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Yeah no, I get it. I wanted to get this out there as a first draft, open for some ideas. The scapegoat part is definitely one that should be changed and not be exploitable. Thanks for your input, man.
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Yeah. I was also thinking that it would make Jeff's perk much more useful, maybe even meta.
To not make this to op I was thinking that the entity could start to fade away after the survivor is unhooked. If a survivor is hooked in the same hook again before the entity fades away completely he will not immediatly enter the struggle phase, but the sacrifice progress wouldn't be completely lost after the unhook.
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I still wouldn't take deliverance because I'm not going to go into a match possibly with only 3 usable perks in a system like that. I would either have to purposely let the killer down me just to make sure I don't die because I get the unlucky #3, or run the risk of just being found and instantly killed after my first chase, making the perk useless. You also can only unhook yourself on the first hook phase, so to get the perk to even work you'd have to get the unhook first, and THEN make sure you're the one who gets downed on that #1 hook, or #4, #7, whatever would be the equivalent to a "first hook." Even then, I could also be screwing over anybody else packing deliverance and make their perk useless even if I get mine off.
This would also make camping hugely more powerful, as any killer can easily camp on their 2nd hook to threaten any person who may come to save, and tell them "Hey, if you want to save this person, you better be ready to end your game for it."
Plus as mentioned before I'm not going to be too thrilled when my game just happens to be ended just because my potato team mates can't stop getting downed, and then I just happen to get found.
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Yeah I like that, it would definitely give a sence of urgency. Maybe the hook closest to the Killer has a slowed down fade away, so you would have to either sabotage it or get him to go away, risking to go to a dead zone.
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You are right in that aspect, definitely. I would like to ask though, how would you implement such a system so it does not make solo que a mayhem? Do you think making it so you are only linked to one person in your squad or make it only affect swf groups would be an alternative?
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I think anything that put's the survivor's life directly in another survivor's control is bad. I think the very concept of survivors' fate being decided based off how many hooks went off before just feels like the definition of "out of my control."
When I play solo queue I'll do what I can to help my team even if I do end up dying because to me it's the BP and XP I get that matter. Thing is, I can't trust my team mates even in this current system. Some people are just bad and can't help it. People will do things like miss skill checks, refuse to save, and all this other stuff. If I already can't trust my team to just do generators and whatnot I surely wouldn't be able to trust them not to get screwed/screw other players with an instant kill 3rd hook.
I just don't know how I would implement the system without it feeling unfair at least for me personally. The only situation I could ever be okay with that in would be survive with friends, since I can at least communicate with my team, but I don't play with a team pretty much ever so that's really not something I have much opinion over. I just think it's really important to balance well for solo queue because just like me, not everybody plays SWF. Also, not everybody plays for the team. On top of that, as explained through my camping example, there's also just plain and simple toxic players that get off on ruining the experience for others, and will abuse any small thing they can like that. Even something as simple as "farming" hooks off one of the noobier players just to prep an instant kill hook to wipe out one of the better players.
There probably could be a more interesting hook system. Your idea is already more creative than something I would come up with, but it just has that one problem of being abusable in an anti-fun kind of way. I'm not even personally against the "having to feel that risk" feeling for altruism because I do see that sometimes altruism is EZPZ even when you're doing it running in front of the killer's face.
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You are right with the way ranking is right now, the survivors rank is somewhat easily messed up, so you play with not so aware and lower skilled players. It would make the experience miserable, I see that. Maybe once the ranking system is cleared out, we can go for a different approach to the Killer's objective.
I have to say I do somewhat like the idea of your life sometimes being in the hand of another person though. It would be an interesting dillema and could cause for interesting behaviour among the survivors. Maybe there are other ways than just through the hooking process.
Thanks for your input, man.
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No, because we have killers who you cant hide from: Doc, wallhack Myers, Wallhack Wraith, Wallhack Plague, Wallhack Oni and Legion, the cherry on top.. xD And dont forget about BBQ + Iron Maiden + Infectious Fright.. and Make Your Choice, its power will increase exponentially.
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I can see that, it was only a first suggestion. What would you change so solo que is not affected as much? Would it enough that only swf is affected?
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A hard no from me, i prefer not to die on my first hook because 2 others got caught before me.
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I would be 100% fine with this but in fairness survivors should get a guaranteed kobe since people will just leave them and to prevent tunneling ds basekit
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Would your view change a bit when only swf were affected? (Just edited the post, since I forgot to put some other suggestions)
If solo survivors were not affected like this and only swf, would you still have the same view or do you have a different idea how you would implement it?
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Others suggested that maybe only swf should be affected, since solo que could become a mayhem. Would you still agree to a 100% or what do you base it on?
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I just edited it
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I have no idea, i just don't like this one.
I'm pretty much exclusively solo, so i'd be excluded from this, yay, but still nah.
I do like the idea you got written in the edit of the Entity's growth on the Hook staying on the Hook after the Survivor gets unhooked.
Entity progress would be like normal while the Survivor is hooked, but if unhooked while in phase 1, it instantly spawns the full Entity model on the Hook except for the stabby Entity legs.
The model is there to indicate to Survivors & Killers that this Hook does not allow a phase 1 anymore.
If someone is put on that Hook, they're in phase 2 except if they already had phase 2, which would mean sacrificed like usual.
If unhooked during phase 2, it would keep the Entity legs.
And this model is there to indicate to Survivors & Killers that this Hook does not allow a phase 1 or 2 anymore.
If someone is put on that Hook, they ded.
A sacrifice still destroys the Hook, no matter what Entity stage it was at.
Hangman's Trick can revive the Hook, but not the Entity stage.
Huh, maybe Monstrous Shrine could be reworked to work with this.
The counter: Sabotage.
Saboteur or any Toolbox capable of sabotaging (R.I.P. Engineer's Toolbox) is able to interact with Hooks that has the Entity on it, though it adds a few more seconds per added phase.
This is straight from the wiki, so correct me if i'm wrong, but this is just to show: Sabotaging Hooks takes 30 seconds without a Toolbox, so every phase adds another 7 or so.
But unlike Hooks, Entity phases don't regenerate.
Maps would show the Auras of the growth on the Hooks, so if the Hook Aura has a wide bottom part, you know it's at phase 1, if the Hook Aura has that & Entity legs, you know it's at phase 2, and neither is of course 0.
Maybe Flashlights should be able to burn phases away as well?
About as fast as burning Wraith maybe, but 1 phase per complete burn, idk.
An obvious problem i can think of is a Killer using the "Carry them to the Basement" build, and using it as a "Carry them to the Phase 2 Hook" build.
God, i love making ideas! 🤭
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Yea it definitely has something nice to it, thanks for the input, mate.
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For SWF exclusively (party of 3 or 4) I would decrease hook stages time. I would decrease every hook stage to 30s (default is 60s). It would be alike taking away 1 hook stage, but not making it as brutal as mori. 60s to sacrifice every survivor.
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I don't know how many times it has to be said but you can't punish people for playing swf. Not all swf are depip squads hell bent on bullying the killer some people just want to play a game with friends.
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