[SUGG] The Solution to balance SWF
Hello :)
So i already posted this thread on the Steam forums and so far the feedback is mostly positive toward my idea ! So i thought it would be good to post it aswell to make it visible to the devs @not_Queen @Peanits
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So i see lot of threads about SWF and how annoying it is to play with and against them.
(I'm playing both solo survivor and killer in red ranks)
WITH : they usually left the solo survivor to die on hook or sandbag/farm him/her on hook
AGAINST : if there are friendly SWF, most of them are tryharding and even purposely being toxic towards the killer, and that is without taking in count that most of those groups use external communication such as Discord to gain an unfair advantage in coordination compared to a full solo group.
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There are lot of obvious solutions that comes to mind : remove 1-2-3 perks from the SWF but it usually would hurt the solo survivor playing with them as less perks means less chance to get saved or survive.
What needs to be done is balance the SWF while buffing the solo and the killer.
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Duos are not really a problem so this solution will only focus on 3 SWF and 4 SWF.
> 3 SWF + 1 Solo survivor
- Give the Solo survivor and the Killer a 5th perk slot.
- Reward the Solo survivor with 75% bonus BP
- Reward the Killer with 75% bonus BP
- Disable the perk Object of Obsession
> 4 SWF
- Make that the same perk/same item can only be equip by 2 members in the SWF
- Disable the perk Object of Obsession
- Reward the Killer with 100% bonus BP
This way, the team would actually have to decide who equip which perk, who is in charge of taking the killer attention, who is in charge of gens , who is in charge of healing/saving and who is the one doing all of those at once. That means up to two survivors of the group can equip the perk Borrowed Time, Dead Hard, etc
Communication would actually become more strategic and the key to surviving.
Example :
Survivor A : Decisive Strike + Dead Hard + Quick&Quiet + Iron Will
Survivor B : Bond + Prove Thyself + Iron Will + Sprint Burst
Survivor C : Borrowed Time + Sprint Burst + Empathy + We'll Make It
Survivor D : Decisive Strike + Dead Hard + Borrowed Time + Bond
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This is discussion, but please if you can, comment with some constructive idea/feedback.
This isn't a THEM vs US thread so NO "biased" "survivor main" "killer main" comments.
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Have a great day and see ya in the Fog !
Comments
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I like the 4 swf idea. Not sure on the 3 man one. Why doesn't the killer get bonus bp in the 4 man scenario?
Also...why does survivor A have OoO?
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If OoO is disabled, then the first survivor can't have it.
I would also go further and slow gen repair speeds down by 5% for every survivor currently team up with another. You get the huge advantage of communications, then you'll need them with the possibility of a 20% gen progression slow down.
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I like the idea of getting bonus bp for having a "harder" match. But granting a fifth perk slot is too much imo. Limiting the perks they can equip is kind of unfair, I dont think anyone would be a fan of get his perk choice limited forcefully.
When it comes to swf I think its better to reward the more challenging game.
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I would just give a bp bonus for the solo survivor and killer becuase in most cases the match will be more difficult
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Yeah sorry i copy pasted my steam thread and actually added later the OoO so i forgot that Survivor A had it XD
I guess you are right @Weck i'll add it !
@Tarvesh Do you mean in the 4 SWF scenario or the 3SWF aswell ? Because if it's not only for the 4 SWF you are actually nerfing the solo survivors playing with the SWF.
SWF have constant Bond + Kindred + Empathy + Object of Obsession, basically a killer right now is playing 4 perks against 28 in a 3 SWF scenario or 32 in a 4 SWF scenario. I don't think adding a 5th perk to both the solo and the killer is too much ^^
As for the limited choice, it's only when 4 SWF and if you are the kind of SWF that have fun and sandbag each other you won't have any issue with that but if you are the kind of SWF that plays to tryhard and humiliate the killer you will have to actually think of a strategy before playing.
It's already more difficult for both solo and killer, it's about making it an even difficulty for everyone in the trial.
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Good start, I like the scaling
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3 SWF = can't bring red items + add-on / but solo player can equip.
4 SWF = can't bring purple and red items + add-on
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See, a lot of that looks good on paper. The issue is, you can't punish people for playing with their friends. All your solutions seem to punish the SWF in some way. So they aren't really good solutions.
Sure, a coordinated 4 man SWF is hell for a killer. Nobody argues that. The issue is, and I say this as someone who plays both sides more or less equally (I may have a bit more hours in killer), a truly coordinated 4 man god tier SWF (or, "depip squad") that is unbeatable doesn't happen all that often. Even at red ranks.
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Bro, allowing less or more perks is simply not fair. Object of Obsession got hit hard with implementation of undetectable, its fine. What really hurts is spine chill, even t1 Mike is detected by it. Its my fav perk after kindred but i must admit its completely braindead. Its off so i'm safe, period. Back then i actually still had to watch out for t1 Mike, which is super fun to play against imo.
About swf directly: nothing is going to get done about it, devs promote swf as much as they can because playing with friends is more fun which means more players. We preached this on forum for a long time now.
I don't blame them but personally i enjoyed the most games i was literally shitting myself all the time and barely made it out alive. Good Billy or God tier lucky Pigs i am talking about.
But its not popular opinion that survivors should actually earn survival.
The biggest issue there is with swf is that killers don't know if its swf or not and devs try to hide it as much as possible. What this achieves: Killer takes strongest crap possible because got bad games (crap random generation + swf is frustrating) only to destroy 4 random chill guys with meme builds. Not fun for anyone literally. Then killer chills the next day, takes fun killer and fun build instead of sweaty ones to poorly roll again and got dumpstered and tbagged. Gots angry, switches to sweat build, add mori maybe... Oh its chill guys now but since mories are not for free he is using it anyway (lets be honest, most players don't nolife this game and wasting good addon/offering feels just wrong).
And the cycle continues.
Solution: Give killers ability to see who is and who is not in swf (beeing able to tell apart 4men and 2 2men squads) and give slight blood point after trial boost. 2 - 10%. 3 and 2/2 20%. 4 - 40%.
Boom everything fixed, most killers will not dodge bcoz its more points even if they loose, can also take stronger crap or no addons if its 4randos.
But hey, survivor mains already have it too hard so better remove anything that killers can see in lobby including names. Also there are still not enough pallets and broken balanced landing maps guaranteed with offering. Killers should be at 100% ms.
Edit: Also your perk limitation idea is flawed. Many swfs are not in comms, reading message that you can't take this perk bcoz reason and then not deciding in time would result in having empty slot? Unfair, we have to look at both sides unlike surv mains. This could also lead to having the same perks by last second swotching or something, so really sweaty can'ts could pull it of while. Normal dudes not. I've seen too many bugs so far to doubt it for s second.
Post edited by Inji on0 -
I don't like the idea of the 5th perk slot tbh. Other than that you have such great ideas!
Hope to see you in the fog!!!
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Swf doesnt need balance
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People who want to have fun with friends won't get punished by those changes, only the tryhard SWF will be and those are the problem not the fun with friends ^^
OoO got hit hard but still works against stealthy killers, yus it stopped showing their auras but the perk still lights up when looking at the killer making it a higher range Spine Chill.
If the killer goes toxic on next game for having a bad time last game, it's not the devs fault, it's the player fault for taking a game too personnal.
Survivors have enough pallets as it is, Balanced Landing is now an ok exhaustion perk but i agree some maps still needs to be balanced not to be survivors sided (such as Ormont, Red Forest realm because of their big scale)
For the SWF empty slot because not enough time : this is why there is a prelobby with a chat and you can hit "ready" when only you are actually "ready", sorry but this is false excuse for making yourself a mistake.
Thank you for your feedback ! Well there is also places for changes of course ^^
See ya :)
Post edited by Inji on0 -
@Adeloo Poor solo survivor then. Guarantee you the 3-man SWF doesn't care how loarge of an advantage they have. Whining about the 1 solo getting the debuff when not acknowledging the massive debuff to the 1 killer with any number of SWF is just biased.
We don't have to worry about that, though. BHVR wants solos to be as close to a SWF team as possible. So the bias in their design is already there.
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You have your opinion i have mine. Thank you for the non-constructive feedback, have a good day in the fog ! :)
Yeah solo survivor with SWF is an awful experience. This is why i suggest to nerf the SWF and buff both the solo and the killer. To me it's seems you didn't read my thread.
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Calling feedback non constructive when the same could be said about the absurd changes you proposed is weird
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The addition of the 5th perk slot is pretty broken honestly. There's a few times as Killer or Survivor that with a 5th perk slot I can run a dominating build. I love the idea of extra Bloodpoints though it does seem fair. I do like the lerk limitations it actually makes SwF kinda fun and unique outside of chatting with friends while laying the game.
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Non-constructive feedback is saying "no" or "yes" without adding any arguments why. With my changes i bring arguments and examples, so this is definitly not the same :)
If you can in that situation the killer will be able aswell ^^
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I mentioned both sides xD
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Your "argument" is that swf is stronger than the normal survivors because of the communication (perfectly true) but the way you butchered it is why the changes are too much
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Killers and the solo survivior should get bonus BP for playing with SWF. (Survivior +10/20%, Killer +10/20/30%, or something like that)
Max 2 of each perk for SWF seems like a really good idea, It should apply to 3 player SWFs as well. Doesnt matter if they are casual or not, 4 people with the same loadout is never fun.
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It doesn't matter if it's a tryhard or a normal SWF group. You can not punish people for playing with their friends. Start doing that, the game dies. This isn't a good solution.
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there is 50% of the survivors that play solo and 50% that plays SWF.
The game would not die if those changes came to life. Also it wouldn't change anything for the people who play with their friends for fun, as perks doesn't matters for them.
It's not punishments, in the 3SWF situation it's a buff to solo and killer. In 4SWF it's a slight restriction and a buff to killer. there is only punishment for 4SWF that all use the meta perks.
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Easiest way to balance SWFs is make them use only 1 unique perk per group so no 3x DS, no 3x BT etc... They will have to consider carefuly what perks they gonna take to game. Reason why to restrict SWFs to single unique perk per party members is easy - almost all SWFs are on voice-comm and this is literaly simulating perks like Bond, Emphaty, Kindred..., players can simply discuss their locations, position of killer, if killer is camping and many else. SWFs dont need to take these aura-reading perks because they have it for free implemented in their voice-communication so there is need to cut their perk variability to balance it for solo survivors and killers. SWFs will have to implement solo survivors for better chance to escape and killers will not have disadvantage vs voice-communication as well. Voice-communication is giving huge advantage against killer. Other option is to implement voice-communication for all ingame and buff slightly killers around it.
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No.
They need to fix their broken game first before they add anything else. No more cosmetics, perks, killers or survivors. I'm tired of this game being so bad when it has such massive possibilities.
Also, this is too much work for the devs with the game's current state.
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People already have problem with me suggesting that 1 perk can only be use by 2 people in the same SWF, so 1 use would be too much of a nerf, in my opinion.
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SWFs + gen speeds are 2 most annoying problems in game and should be fixed asap.
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You can not punish people for playing with their friends. Ever.
It's mind boggling to me how you even remotely think that is a good idea. It lacks any logic and forethought whatsoever.
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I'm not PUNISHING anyone for playing with their friends. If anything it makes them use their brains to actually have a real strategy when playing and it's not even that much of a deal to think about who will equip what perk. There are around 70 survivors perks in this game, the only one getting punished are the one staying in their confort zone of 5-6 perks. If fun is what you seek when playing with your friends then perks shouldn't even matter !
This is where it's nice to actually read the OP thread as i never said that every SWF is the tryhard type and they are all rank 1 3,5K experienced survivors.
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If you are removing anything from their kit, perks (or the ability to use them), points, anything, it is a punishment.
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Lol i just posted something similar to this yesterday, but i wanted it where no swf members can have the same perk as others. But just limiting it to two is good and not as big of a punishment. But voice chat is just to good and is like an extra perk per survivor.
Hope they add this type of balance since decisive strike being equipped by all 4 swf members is a bit to powerful, same for borrowed time. nice suggestion.
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"AGAINST : if there are friendly SWF, most of them are tryharding and even purposely being toxic towards the killer," and what is this ?
Like i said friendly SWF don't care what perks they are using and won't see it as a punishment ;)
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It is, but forcing SWF to have different loadouts is a fine solution to me. You have information about your friends perks, so you can coordinate it however you want, and that puts killer at huge disadvantage
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exactly what i'm aiming for. You are a team of 4 survivors knowing each other and most likely to use external device to communicate directly. It's not hard to decide each other role and perks and doesn't take more than 30 sec
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the killer is entitled to play this game against survivors who don't use any external communication device, yet it's pretty common
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Forcing them to not be able to use perks that want to use is punishment.
Just stop. There is no scenario where this is a good idea, and no version of this where you are right.
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They can use perk they want to, just not 4 copies of every perk. SWF can coordinate their loadouts as much as they want, and this leads to perk combos that are humanly impossible in Random queue. Blocking having more than 2 copies of the same perk per SWF, means that they still can do strong combos, but no longer can do 4x the same op loadout.
SWF shouldnt be able to do such thing because its puts bith killers and Solo surviviors at disadvantage.
If you get a huge advantage which is coordinating loadouts (even without comms) then get prepared for restrictions so that you dont ruin the fun for others.
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You contradicted your first statement with your second statement.
I rest my case.
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You can use every perk, but there is limited amount per lobby. If you read the rest then you would realise that it doesnt matter if the first 2 sentences are true or not...
TLDR You get a huge advantage, so be prepared to pay for it. Its not a punishment, its a trade
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Not allowing people who are just playing with their friends to use any perk they want after they earned said perk, simply because they are playing with their friends...not a punishment.
Just stop.
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Knowlege of skill levels and playstyle of all surviviors, ability to synchronize perk loadouts, ability to synchronize offerings and item addons and potential ability to communicate, simply because you spent 5 minutes to invite 3 people...not an advantage
Just stop
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I reiterate:
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Seriously though.
You can't just debilitate every SWF squad. Sure, it helps against toxic tryhards, but friendly people who just wanna enjoy the game with their friends get ######### over.
Honestly, at this point, just give everyone comms, rework Survivor aura perks, and then balance the game around that instead (increase gen time, buff killer perks, etc).
It's just one of the most fair ways to balance SWF without screwing SWF teams themselves over, although I'm pretty sure Behavior won't do that because it conflicts with their initial vision of the game. At least, I think that's the excuse they gave.
That's probably what they tried with Deathgarden.
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is a Joke. Mauhauhauhau
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it is totally unfair to play against SWF who are all communicating via voice application like discord or team speak etc ... They know all the time what the killer is doing and where he is leaving others free to do GEN RUSH !!!! !!!
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Ok see it as a punishment if you want.
Yet playing SWF punishes the killer and the solo as the SWF don't have to use perks like Kindred, Empathy, Bond, or Object of Obsession as they already communicate via Discord or Skype in most cases.
They don't need Self-care as they can communicate their location to one of their teammate to get heal.
This allow them to use their perks slots for more meta perks such as DS, Dead Hard/SB, BT and Adrenaline.
Meaning the killer is punished because he is most likely to face 3-4 survivors with the most strong perk in the game.
There are ~70 survivor perks currently, yet people decide to play 5-6 of them.
I don't see my suggestion as a punishment as SWF are already gifted with better perk choice, i see my suggestion as a way to actually balance the perks played in a match.
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So punishing SWF is "the worst idea", but everyone else being punished by SWF is fine? This is what lacks logic
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I never said that. As others have pointed out, there are better solutions.
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But they're not though, not at all. The use of VOIP applications is not only explicitly allowed, it's straight up endorsed as well. There's even rooms people can use for it on the official DBD Discord last I checked.
It's also totally allowed for killers to dodge lobbies if they want of course.
And while it has already been stated in this thread, any form of mechanical nerfs/handicaps applied to SWF parties will quite simply never happen.
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Ingame communication will probably never happen, I dont think devs are even intrested in it
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I don’t just see it as a punishment. It is OBJECTIVELY a punishment.
I play with my friends. I get punished by not being able to equip a certain perk that I may or may not want to use.
Two solutions:
- Add an in-game voice chat and balance around that
- Reward the killer by granting a BP multiplier for the match, or even lower the standards for a safety pip depending on how many SWF people there are.
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