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Revisiting Totem Risks for Survivors
While totem spawns are a problem, fixing it won't solve the overall problems with Hexes and Totems.
Instead, I'd like to know if the devs are or have considered placing more risk onto Survivors when cleansing a totem instead of placing all of the risk on the Killer when taking the perk.
Survivors take 0 risk when cleansing a totem and get 100% benefit by eliminating a killer perk.
Shouldn't survivors shoulder at least some of the risk of cleansing a totem further adding to the decision when finding a totem whether or not to cleanse it for fear of the consequences?
Thoughts?
Comments
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What did you have in mind?
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Haunted Grounds.
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There is already a visual notification.
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I just wasted your video and I see your point but here the thing the devs will never do that and even if they try to do something like that we gonna have something like Hex: Haunted Ground. I think the best thing will be just remove the totems and give the game an actually second objective.
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The risk they take is not working on gens. I cleanse every totem I see and I search through the usual spots to see if they are there. That takes time. If all or some my teammates aren't doing gens while I do that then it sets us back a lot.
I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of change, but I'd have to hear it out
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You should know the answer to this.
Anything that inconveniences survivors is a no-no.
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I'm not a fan of this idea as totems should be something they want to cleanse. It's like punishing a killer for kicking a gen since that could be considered a second objective for them.
It could mean removing power from some hexes since there is now more of a risk in doing them. I.e. devour hope. So the risk can't be too high.
There are already thrill and haunted grounds and it doesn't stop them cleansing. If anything thrill makes the killer patrol totems and haunted grounds well it screws over someone else rather than the person on the totem almost all of the time.
They want to do something with totems so these should be something survivors feel like they should do. Too much risk and they won't care and just rush gens and get straight out instead risking NOED since its a mechanic which is known.
It could also make an swf even stronger over solo since they could communicate when best to do them.
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How about after cleansing any hex, the cleanser is affected by a new status for 2-3 mins.
New status effect: Burned - While affected, survivors repair generator speed is X% slower. (I am thinking about 15% would be a good number for this, but would need tuning)
Just something to add risk to cleansing, but isn't too oppressive.
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You're actually comparing kicking gens to cleansing totems? Kicking gens does practically nothing without pop, while doing just one totem gives the survivors 1500 points and sometimes gets rid of a hex. Most hex perks are immediately cleansed when a survivor finds them as a low mobility killer even with thrill of the hunt, because the moment you pick up a survivor, the rest of their team will swarm to the totem like flies to a carcass and you won't get back in time to stop them. You also seem to underestimate how powerful NOED is, especially against bad survivors. It can completely turn the tides of the game and give a killer a 4k even when the odds are stacked against them. You already have a good incentive to do totems, you get free points, and possibly get rid of a hex, NOED, or you could get Inner Strength. You just want to have no risk to doing totems instead of the minimal risk there is only when the killer has Haunted Grounds or Thrill of the Hunt.
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It's not about what they do or the strength. I'm not comparing those of course 🙄 but both take the side away from the overall objective.
Kicking a gen breaks momentum and doing a totem means they are not doing the gens.
Of course NOED is good against bad survivors was that ever in question? The key word is bad though.
Exactly there is an incentive to do totems and it should stay that way so they are not constantly on gens so if you get more punished for doing it then alternatives ways will be found instead.
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The risk, other than Haunted Grounds, is the time not on gens. That’s all it should be. If you want more risk to cleanse, then you have to nerf the effect of the hex itself. The reason they are as strong as they are is because it can be cleansed without risk aside from that. You can’t have it both ways where survivors are either screwed leaving a strong hex up or also screwed by cleansing it. I may be wrong, but I believe you may be the one who previously suggested survivors lose a perk for cleansing a totem, which to me is ridiculous.
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The risk is that you're not spending time on a gen. No extra risk is necessary
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Haunted Ground is the only risk that there is. The only inherent risk is if people are intentionally seeking out totems and ignoring other obstacles.
I really don’t honestly see much issue with this. I agree that survivors could use another objective to fiddle with, but even that comes with many drawbacks.
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Debate:
Time not on gens: This risk is tied to playing the match, not specifically to totems. Survivors wander the map for the entirety of a match in search of gens and chests, in addition to totems. This risk is not enough to create a question of whether or not a survivor should cleanse a totem if they come across one. The goal is to create a risk/reward scenario when the totem can be cleansed by a survivor.
Haunted Grounds: This perk was created in the spirit of creating risk to totems due to the same comments being made on the steam forums, but using a perk to create risk for the use of another perk isn't a good design. I'd argue that its implementation was out of laziness rather than trying to solve the problem that still exists today.
Kicking gens: It is a punishment for a killer. It takes 2 seconds to kick a gen for a regression of 1/4 of the rate a survivor can progress the generator. In this time, survivors can move 8 m of distance which may be enough time to reach a pallet to extend a chase. Additionally, survivors can tap the gen without an action bar to take away the action of the killer before it has a chance to have an effect. This is another example of mechanical bias in the game where both sides should exert the same amount of effort for a similar action.
Suggestion:
To create a Risk / Reward situation for a single survivor they should be effected by the perk to a much lesser degree.
This creates a situation where a survivor finds a totem or spawns on one and has a choice. They can cleanse this unknown totem and be affected by a lesser version for the rest of the match, but removing the full effect for the rest of the team, or choose not to take the risk and leave it for other survivors to cleanse.
The details of the lesser versions of the perks are limitless so I won't bother trying to come up with them. Especially since the liklihood of this sort of thing happening is non-existent.
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Oblivious? 🤷♂️
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They'd have to be extra vigilant and only the more confident survivors would take the risk. It'd be map dependent, but it could be enough.
I wouldn't like that stealth killers would be left out for the most part though.
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Thought you'd had been banned.
Into the topic, they won't change #########.
They have been "fixing" totem spawns for more then a year... And they still spawn right on the open field.
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True, was just throwing something out there.
Maybe they can have the Mindbreaker effect on standard: You are afflicted by a/multiple Status Effect(s) while you cleanse it, and for a few seconds after leaving/finishing it.
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One more imagined slight by a sensitive forum goer and I will be.
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It's funny to see people mentioning time off gens as a risk to survivors. As if gens don't go way too fast as it is. But I guess 6 minute games sit well with people.
Anyway, I doubt anything of the sort will occur. The devs mentioned making totems into a true secondary objective, so I suspect we'll see them being incentivised even more. And at that point why even bring a hex perk into the match. I don't think any hex perk is actually worth the risk right now. Not even NOED or Devour Soap. Ruin was worth it because it guaranteeded some value at least, NOED is actually a trap and Devour Soap at best gets you one insta down. But if it becomes a true secondary objective I'm actually willing to let Hex perks die for it.
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If they cleanse a totem it should remove the effect for the team but force them to be debuffed by it.
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I forgot about that point in the stream. I wonder if we'd ever see something like Fired Up where the perk is powered up as totems are cleansed. That might be interesting.
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Survivors that cleans a lit totem should have a burn animation (their body would glow like a bright candle) for the rest of the match. They should look stick out like a sore thumb! Would be glorious.
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Not sure if you were around for last year's Chinese new year with the lanterns that made Survivors sparkle. That might be an interesting thing.
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I wasn't. I started when in October 2019, when all the fun events were announced to be discontinued ;_;
I've been watching old game play videos of things going wrong and have noticed how Survivors light up during that event, seems like it could be implemented as a risk factor into totems.
Different topic, but I want the Killer T-pose glitch back. I'd love to hover around like that for a match or two with my Trapper.
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The "risk" is that they are wasting time doing something that isn't a generator. There is also the risk that the killer will hear them working on the totem and hunt them down. There is also the risk that the totem is Haunted Grounds. There is also the risk that the killer is nearby and takes offense to their perk being destroyed and tunnels the offending survivor to death. I don't even understand this thread. Normally killers are always going on about how survivors should cleanse totems if they don't like NOED.
There are things that I don't like about the totem system. There are still plenty of maps that have terrible spawn locations, but they really have systematically been improving that a lot. I also don't like that survivors can spawn near an active hex while the killer spawns on the other side of the map and unless the killer happens to be Hillbilly, will not be able to get to the totem to defend it. I think all active hex totems should be immune to survivor's cleansing for 30 seconds at the start of the match.
But in terms of survivor risk, I'd say that is just fine.
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Maybe that is an idea for a killer perk. But it certainly shouldn't be the default.
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So you think that the survivor who spent time not working on generators should be punished on their generator repair speed? Sure. That makes sense.
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Why not? It will help slow the game down a little bit and it's better than increasing gen repair times. The game is supposed to involve risk, so cleansing totems, which effectively neuter killers for the rest of the match, should have a little risk. It's not like I suggested that the totem explode and you get injured or put in the dying state (though if that ever happened as a glitch, it would be funny).
I'm not asking for the glow effect to last the rest of the match, but for something like 30-45 seconds should be fine.
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Perks like devour hope and noed would be stupidly overpowered though, however I have been thinking what if all totems were lit? You wouldn't be able to tell which ones are hex and which ones aren't, I think that if all totems were lit hex perks could last a little bit longer and force survivors to waste more time and balance the game a bit in the sense that yeah hex perks would still be able to be destroyed but survivors would have to waste time until they get the right totem. Just an idea
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Why should the survivor be punished in any way for a choice the killer made before the game even started? Any killer that brings a hex perk into the match knows the risks. There are a multitude of perk choices that aren't hexes.
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Devour Hope could be reduced to it's 2 token state which is near useless anyway. NoED is an outlier where you need to cleanse all 5 totems on the map in order to kill it. It's reduced effect could simply be the movement speed buff.
I'm not saying to keep the effect at 100% if it's cleansed, but just not reduced to 0.
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Because the game is going by too fast for most Killers to play without being sweaty. Survivors and their constant DCing and complaining resulted in making matches faster. Killers need something to help slow down the game. Something like this is better than slowing down gen repair speed.
Besides, you don't "have to" get punished, you're making a choice, to cleanse or not to cleanse.
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I think this entire thread is really unnecessary. Devs are giving maps good totem spawns and hexes will be plenty strong once that is implemented.
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Until spawns are memorized like they are now.
The spawns aren't the problem. It's another bandaid fix that is taking more effort and resources than it's worth.
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Oh, well it's actually not a bad idea I like how that sounds. That would balance hex perks a lot I think and wouldn't make them as unfair and useless as they currently are. So basically what you're saying is make it so that hex totems just kinda like boost the perk instead of being the perk.
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I agree. That sounds cool but it would take too much work from the balance team who are already hard pressed.
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Yes, but don't forget that I'd like some Risk to be placed on the cleansing survivor's shoulders at the same time.
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Risks like what though?
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Imagine a weaker effect of the perk in question that afflicts the cleansing survivor for the remainder of the match.
Or bypass that penalty by sacrificing the use of a second chance perk they have available. ie Unbreakable becomes consumed when a live totem is cleansed (excluding Haunted Grounds)
They essentially "pay" for the Hex to be removed. Removing a killer perk by offering up their own to the Entity.
There are lots of things that "could" happen, but the end goal is to place Risk on the survivor's side as well as the killer's.
Balance.
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Sorry for participating in the discussion. My mistake.
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Your way of thinking is backasswards. Perks that are hex perks are designed in such a way that they would be too powerful for survivors if there wasn't some way to counter them. If a killer gets Devour Hope to 5 tokens then it's GG. But providing survivors with a way to counter the perk is what allows the perk to exist in the first place! If the choice is Devour Hope is a hex perk or no Devour Hope at all then I'd definitely choose hex perk.
And let's be real here. Destroying an active hex totem isn't really a choice for survivors. Like I said, not cleansing the totem will surely lead to a loss otherwise the perk wouldn't be a hex perk to begin with. Obviously H:ToTH and Haunted Grounds are exceptions. But even Hex: Third Seal would be beyond broken if it wasn't a hex perk. If the choice amounts to "damned if you do and damned if you don't" then that isn't really a choice.
I get the feeling that this thread and all the killer whining in it is based on the Hex: Ruin change. I'm not even going to call it a nerf since that is an oversimplification. There is a lot of angst on these forums lately and I have to wonder how many players actually made the effort to adjust to the change before losing their minds.
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I think for starters, we can make existing defensive Hex Perks more better at their job, then go from there. 😁
Currently, there are two defensive Hex perks that make cleansing harder or risky: Haunted Grounds and Thrill of the Hunt.
Haunted Grounds has a simple yet effective change:
- Don't remove the other trapped Hex Totem after a survivor cleanses the first trapped Hex Totem.
OR
- Make the Hex show you the auras of all trapped Hex totems in white.
Thrill of the Hunt is another simple change:
- Increase cleansing penalty to 30%/40%/50% while it's active and
notmultiplied by every totem remaining on the map. - Remove notification when a survivor attempts to cleanse a Hex totem.
- If any Hex totem is cleansed, Thrill of the Hunt will take its place and deactivate. The saved Hex will be moved to where Thrill of the Hunt is at.
- When Thrill of the Hunt is deactivated, all survivors will scream and reveal their location to you for 3 seconds.
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So trying to figure out ways to slow the game down without having players play sweaty is “backasswards”. I’m not asking to make lit totems life threatening to the cleanser, but rather involve a little more risk. Them glowing like they did during the lunar festival seems like a decent idea, and survivors didn’t seem too troubled by it in the videos I’ve seen.
Survivors have would have multiple options, to cleanse, not cleanse, make sure the killer is in a chase or not near by and then cleanse. They could also get better at leading a chase and looping a killer.
Instead of insulting my intelligence , how about you come up with some ideas that may make the game more enjoyable for everyone?
And no, the nerf to Ruin isn’t the main reason why people are complaining. People are complaining because now that Ruin is gone, people are realizing how broken the game is for a lot of killers. Ruin was just a bandaid that covered up the terrible ranking, matchmaking and map design.
If the Devs reworked the maps to be more balanced for all killers before destroying Ruin, you wouldn’t see all the complaints that you see now.
Imagine if the Devs completely reworked Decisive Strike to only work at the start of a matchand reduce its stun timer, what would the reaction from Survivors be? I’m pretty sure the forums would be set on fire.
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I wish there was a stat for how many times I've had some dogshit Ghostface creep up on me when I'm cleansing a dull totem. Or I've been cleansing a dull totem right at the start and decide to stick it, despite hearing the heartbeat, and gone down to a Bubba or Billy who body blocks me. There is risk, trust me.
And do you know how many times I've died on my first hook to NOED because I only had time to cleanse four dull totems and my teammates couldn't do even one? Or maps like the Game and Lerys where even with Small Game, perks are difficult to find?
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The first one could work, but the second one in my opinion wouldn't work because it just wouldn't be fair like survivors shouldn't be forced to pay with one of their perks because of the the killer's hex perks and it's not a matter of "well that's their fault for cleansing the totem" because there are hex perks that can literally make the game abruptly end if the hex totem is not cleansed (devour and noed, I'm talking to you lol) survivors are forced to find the totem and cleanse it. But the first one could work, giving survivors some kind of cursed status effect which can stack everytime they complete a cleansing action for the remainder of the trial would be nice
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I believe there only to two ways to fix this problem
1) Make it so when you destroy a hex totem all the survivors lose one random perk
Or
2) Just make the hex perks normal perks with hight scaling like dying light and completely changed perks like Haunted Grounds andThrill of the Hunt
Devour of hope add two more hook in every effect
Haunted Grounds if one of more gen are complete in 1:20 sec or less every survivor can me one shot for one minute.
Thrill of the Hunt bloodlust come 5 sec early in the chase.
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I have watched your video and have also posted a very similar comment on the forums. I'll bring it here, too, for feedback and thoughts.
"I posted something like this on a comment about leaving a reduce effect on survivors after it is broken. Basically, in summary, this is what I said (I'll include the way you are putting it, as in against the particular survivor that broke it);
DH: Remove all effects, except movement speed after hooking a survivor OR the survivor that broke it is now ONLY either or; moriable for 30 seconds or exposed for 30 seconds; when you get into a chase with this survivor, the DH perk slot will flicker in and out
Thrill: maintains the ability to notify killer of lit totems being touched for 30/45/60 seconds OR maintains the BP value until all dull are cleansed -- or it notifies the killer when the survivor, who broke it originally, and one other who touch the other lit totems on the map. (Gives it outplay)
Noed: maintains the speed boost OR the player who cleansed it is exposed for 20/25 seconds. (Enough time to escape)
Third Seal: all survivors that were effected when the totem was standing are effected for an additional 30 seconds or so OR your version of this I liked, where they're blinded or oblivious effected for the match (pasted from the thread I posted this on)
Ruin: after broken, it still reduces at 100% the normal gen regression speed for 1 minute after broken OR it only regresses for the survivor who broke it for the perk's normal worth (100/150/200) for the next 40 to 60 seconds
Haunted Grounds: no residual effect in any matter, seeing how it is meant to be broken. (At least imo)
HL: After broken, the regression from a missed sc will remain the same, but for only 60 seconds and no audible cues are changed/altered OR all effects carry over to the survivor who broke it for 60 seconds
I am keeping in mind the power of these totems, but then again i love your idea of having backlash for survivors if they break totems. Its high risk and reward for the killers, but only reward for survivors as Space Coconut put it best. Doesn't have to be an insane backlash or anything, just something that could push survivors away or have them consider it first."
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It makes no sense, do you understand what risk/reward means?
The reward of running hex perks is immense
So is the risk
That is the balance.
If survivors run a risk cleancing (which well, what haunted grounds is for) suddenly its no longer a risk/reward perk for the killer but more...reward/reward.
again it makes no sense to have any risk for a survivor.
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To some, haunted grounds is viewed as a Band-aid fix of sorts. I see where you stand, hence why I believe it shouldn't be an oppressive backlash by no means. But with the totems work, hex mostly, the survivor's cleanse no problem. Having something to help dissuade them some could be beneficial. It would still be high risk/reward for Killer, and in the end, they are still losing that perk, but in the sense, it is also high risk/reward for survivor. If anything, totems, hex and dull alike, are immensely rewarding for survivors over all. Imo at least.
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