Removing a way to see other player's skill is a killing game move.
Its a very important fundemental concept in games like these. Youre removing ranks because they wont affect matchmaking, ok. There will be some hidden elo, ok.
But we NEED to have another system that allows us to the skill level of other players in some way, make medals or idk, like any game such as Dota, Apex Legends or LoL.
1000 hours into this game and I'm really starting to lose hope. There better be a new, immensely improved ranking system that allows you to gauge other players skill that YOU CAN SEE, at the very least after the game. Or this game will die. Leaderboards and ranking systems are needed.
Please don't make another bad change. We want more transparency, not less.
Comments
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I REALLY hope that we will be able to see the Skill Level of our enemies, otherwise the matchmaking could not work and we would not even know about it.
PLEASE DEVS
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Yup exactly. Thats just how it feels right now
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If everything about the ranks is hidden, where would be the motivation for most players to play well in a "normal" match? I believe people would care less about playing the game how it was supposed to be played and instead go for trolling & meme'ing.
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Yeah pretty much i personally wont care if ranks arent even a thing to aim for so i could just meme and drop heavy in mmr then just stomp my way back up. Which isnt fun for anyone.
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Surely anyone with any game knowledge whatsoever can tell another player's skill just by playing with or against them. The only people who should need an arbitrary number to know what another player's skill level is are those who are too new to worry about it.
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Nah we don't need to see ranks. It will be less toxic and more fun to play
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Sounds like a win:win situation. More fun for everyone
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Then why all games mentioned above show the ranking system in the game end screen?
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Because the developers of those games decided they wanted to display ranks at the end of the game. It's that simple. That doesn't mean that it needs to be there, and it certainly doesn't mean that DBD necessarily ought to follow suit. Doing something just because another game did it, without any consideration for how it would work in the context of your game, is a disastrous way to go about designing one.
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They are not asymmetrical and therefore it's more precise. It's also easier to measure mmr to make ranks "valid"
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They have already killed the current ranking system.
You pass wind and pick your nose as survivor with multiple chances to FAIL MASSIVELY but still pip because the requirements are easy to get.
You make one mistake and sweat your nuts off as killer and get a black pip or depip if the survivors hold m1.
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You say that, but you have no idea how many survivors I take pity on because I assume theyre newbies who got brought in by their SWF buddies, only to findout that the baby dwight that I gave hatch to was actually red ranked...
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I would normally agree that seeing ranks is important to gauge whether matchmaking is working from a player perspective. However in Dead by Daylight this is an Asymmetrical game which is influenced too heavily by RNG. Because of that it's really unreliable to judge player skill in this game simply by their rank because a match can be swung in favor of one side with the simple placement of a map tile. Also considering there is only one killer per game and each one plays differently and there are so many perks and addons it's hard to say what the right way to play something is.
Game is too RNG to have accurate measurement of skill tbh. Also too many possibilities to measure from.
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Yet more proof, as if we needed it, that rank is no indication whatsoever of skill level 😋
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Information is the key to this game surviving and at the moment BHVR should be able to see where the flaws are in their balancing of the game.
Removing further information from players is to only try and hide the problems that are in the product that we all can guess.
Survivors should be able to see the killer and survivor rankings also who were in SWF groups.
Killers should be able to see SWF groups and end game survivor rankings, however since SWF creation they need to be balanced not removed or ignored. It is important for killers to see SWF as some just aren't at the skill level to face a 4 man SWF claudettes on comms. Killers should know SWF teams/groups as to what to expect to judge what to expect and accomplishment but most of all to judge if they are going to have a level of fun too as everyone plays a game to have fun but removing it from killers removes killers from the game and increases survivors and their wait times.
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Cool. And we want our developers to do that too.
Why? Because we want to know if it works or not and we want to see how good our enemies were. This is why ranks are shown in other games. I dont want to guess if my enemies were good or not and does matchmaking work or not.
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Yeah, exactly. You never really know. I want proof. As ######### as it is, but I want to see why devs wanted this player to play against me.
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Sure. And it's totally fine for you to request that as a feature. But bear in mind that it is a request, not a demand, and they may choose not to take it on board.
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Then why not let us see it.
And skill rating is SUPPOSED to indicate skill level, thats all the more reason to show it to us.
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I remember playing a game as Billy and just demolishing a team, but there was a baby Claudette that I felt bad for. I remember it being down to 2 people, so I was chasing her teammate and letting her live. I even kinda just gave her a nod to let her know I definitely saw her and didnt hit her on purpose when I was being looped around wretched shop. Endgame chat comes along and she was red ranked. Told me the whole thing made her husbands night (who was in her SWFs squad) because they knew I thought she was a baby survivor. Apparently a big reason why she got so high in ranks is because...so many killers took pity on her.
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Thats a valid tactic, isnt it? Hiding your real skill and making enemy underestimate you.
Without skill rating/ranks you would just think that you let someone go, while you actually got outplayed.
You never really know how good your enemies are...
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The devs themselves have acknowledged that the current ranking system does not accurately reflect skill, in spite of that being its intended function. They said so in the update post. That's the whole reason they're introducing this new system in the first place.
Incidentally, they also explained their reasons for hiding ranks in that post as well. Maybe you should give it another read.
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If she played badly enough for you to think that, maybe she's not as good as she thought. Or maybe, as Archimedes suggested, she was playing badly on purpose, to make you think that she was worse than she was. Either way, she was playing badly, and the only reason her rank didn't reflect that is because, as we've established, the current ranking system doesn't reflect players' demonstrated skill level very accurately.
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I wasnt trying to imply that she was a secret god or anything, but rather the likelihood that she kept running into killers like me that took pity on her and threw her out of the gates, lol.
If I'm tossing you into the hatch, it doesnt matter what rank you are. You didnt outplay me, lol.
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Ugh.. Im not talking about hiding ranks, Im talking about hidin the new Skill Rating or whatever.
There is nothing that explains that in the post.
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I was talking about ranks in the comment you replied to, because that's what LordGlint was discussing in his story. So it was a natural assumption that when I said "rank is no indication of skill level" and you said "then why not let us see it", the "it" was referring to my mention of rank. So no need to go "ugh" as if I'm being really dense or something.
Also, I've explained to you already in that other thread why I think it's a bad idea to let players see the MMR rating. I don't need to repeat myself here.
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Im sorry I think we miscomunicated.
I think I also already explained why players seeing ranks is important.
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This is next level mindgaming. Dwight tricked you into giving him the hatch.
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Yes, you did. Thank you for taking the time to explain your views so thoroughly. But since we've both stated our opinions and are in danger of going around in circles if we continue much further, how about we agree to disagree and leave it at that? 😊
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Heres something to think about... As a former Overwatch player, alot of my thoughts and comparisons are to Overwatch. With THEIR MMR system, it doesnt really matter how well you personally did, just matters what the end result was. You couldve been a godly Widowmaker and had a super close game, but since your 5 teammates were afk in spawn the entire game and you couldnt QUITE 1 v 6 the whole match you lost and thus drop MMR. With all the variables in determining how well a player did...what if they just streamlined it by basing the system on a clear-cut win or lose. Did you survivor? Thats a win and heres a better rating. Did you solo 4 gens and still die? Well thats still a loss, lets drop that rating.
Ultimately a system isnt going to be able to determine every variable in seeing just how well someone played. I could camp every pallet on the map and not try to loop anything and a system that is only looking at chase time would see that I'm WAY better than the guy who went down due to not having anything left to work with since I left the map a giant dead zone.
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I agree, and I think Overwatch has the right idea. No algorithm is ever going to be able to account for all variables, so I personally feel that the only solution is to forget about the variables and base MMR solely on kills or escapes. Yes, you might get screwed over by RNG or bad teammates, but ultimately, if a player is good enough, they will win more often than not in spite of all that.
There are plenty of highly successful games, with a lot of variables involved and, in some cases, a lot of RNG - League, Overwatch, Hearthstone, to name a few - in which the MMR system is based purely on victories and defeats, and it still works perfectly well for that exact reason.
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Thank you for the discussion
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Feel like one of DBD's biggest problems with ranking is the safety pip. Often times, when you win you pip up, but when you lose... how often are you losing rank? Typically the only time people are only losing meaningful rank is during rank reset, which is where this whole rank doesnt equal skill but rather time played thing comes from. With Overwatch, im likely to gain a little bit of rank points and lose a little bit of rank points all night long. I could play for hours and only see a higher rank at the end of the night if I won more games than I lost. With dbd... thats not the case. You win, you rank up. You lose, that safety pip is there so you dont feel bad about it.
Thats why the majority of people who play Overwatch are playing in gold (a rather modest rank) while the majority of DBD's playerbase is at purple if not red. When you play a game of Overwatch, you're not gonna see a top 500 player smashing your gold game. When you play a game of DBD, you can very easily see the top players matched with the average ones who for some reason are the same exact rank because theres no rank further to go after red...which the majority of ppl are at.
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You will feel if you get like 80%+ good or bad games. If they feel good you know it's working, if they feel bad you will know it doesn't. See everyones rank will not change anything. Everyone gets new mmr, rank means nothing - so if they adjust the mmr gain better as they do with the pip system it will be fine.
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I don't mind the safety pip, but I think like many things in DBD's ranking system, it just doesn't do what it was designed to do. The safety pip is supposed to indicate that you're at the right rank. You performed as expected for someone of your rank - you didn't do badly enough that the game thinks you should be ranked lower, but you didn't do well enough to demonstrate that you've improved. However, the safety pip is simply too easy to achieve a lot of the time. As the name implies, it's functionally a safety net, not an estimation of skill.
Part of the problem comes from the misconception with DBD that a lot of people have that if you didn't pip, you're doing something wrong. And I think the fact that players are shown their rank progression after each match has a big part to play in creating that mindset. There is no expectation in games like Overwatch that every player should be able to reach top ranks, but because pipping is so easy in DBD, and because people see themselves safety pipping or depipping and feel like it means they're bad, there is a general notion in DBD that anyone who isn't at top ranks is a bad player. And the safety pip is partially to blame for that, but I think the culture surrounding ranks is just as much of an issue.
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and now I wanna play some Overwatch...
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Go for it! 😊
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Its funny, anymore I'm more active on the forums than the actual game. Been jumping into witcher 3 lately, which is fun although I play on the easiest difficulty setting... and now I'm gonna get reminded of why I dont play Overwatch no more.
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Why do you want to see peoples rank after game is over? Makes 0 sense.
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Because we all know the previous matchmaking/Ranking has been terrible and now with these changes and them choosing to hide the "Skill Level" Rating means we wont be able to tell if we were matched fairly in a match anymore.
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Wrong you will get bullied but you won't know if the skill is matched. How that's fun. Imagine playing against a e-sport player but the system don't tell you is rank. What will you say ? This game is balanced and fun because the rank system don't tell me if i'm matched with my skill level bracket.
It's like hidding a username you get tbagged and bullied all game but you don't know who it is. That will bring a free getaway from toxicity or worse imagine getting away with hostage situation but don't get to see the username.
Anyway i'm out from the subject, my point is no seeing the ranks or not will change nothing if the game is toxic he will stay toxic. Differences is that you won't see if the rank is matched and that's simply a bad design as he can exploiting easily by survivors.
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So, if you get bullied but see the rank you feel better than without seeing ranks? Whats the difference?
If the system works "well" enough you shouldn't be bullied anyways. And if you play good or bad you will know it anyways...
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No you won't know because you can't see the rank. playing against a high skill player and you are a no skill one and win the game won't tell you and you will think that the system is doing the job.
Hiding a rank system is very unhealthy i've never seen any games hiding your skill level. Rainbow six , paladin , fortnite , ffxiv , LoL none of them hide your skill level and those have some really good ranking system but also have casual mode which DBD don't.
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Don't overthink it if you can live in peace w/o knowing it. You can always just assume that he's a better player (which he kinda is if you lose) in case you did nothing wrong. If you did mistakes, you know as well.
This games are not asymmetrical tho it's completely different imho
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#1
"Going forward, we will use a hidden skill rating for matchmaking purposes. Your skill rating will increase when you do well and decrease when you do poorly. To keep this as fair as possible, the system will predict the outcome of the match based on the difference in your opponent(s) rating and adjust the amount your rating changes:
- If your rating is higher than your opponent(s), your rating will increase less if you win and drop more if you lose.
- If your rating is lower than your opponent(s), your rating will increase more if you win and drop less if you lose.
This way, even if you aren’t perfectly matched with people of the exact same skill level, your rating will not change unfairly."
#2
"Currently, our matchmaking system takes the player in queue and looks for a match close to their rank. If it is unable to find an appropriate match, it will gradually expand the search range until it is able to give you a match. This can lead to both unfair matches and long queue times."
In A Nutshell . . .
#1
Hidden skill rating. So many reasons, aka excuses for this being hidden. Skill rating is just a number after all, but so is your rank. That big colorful number that meant so much to the community often touting how it proves x, y, z.
What will players show as proof now of their amazing skillfulness to kill or survive OR of how terrible matchmaking remains? According to the developers post there won't be any proof . . of anything.
"To avoid confusion, we are considering removing ranks from the post-match scoreboard once testing is complete, as they will no longer be relevant to matchmaking. Ranks will remain visible only to you for bragging rights and a goal to work towards, but will be a reflection of your dedication to the game rather than skill for the time being."
Ask yourself: Who does hiding information benefit? Without anything to reference players can no longer storm the forums in outrage with proof of the terrible job the developers are doing with matchmaking.
Have a terrible game? You must have been matched poorly.
Have a great game? You must be the best of the best.
It's all in your head now. And that's the way they want it.
#2
Currently, our matchmaking system takes the player in queue and looks for a match close to their rank.
- As it should. Makes sense.
If it is unable to find an appropriate match, it will gradually expand the search range until it is able to give you a match.
- Sounds like the reason for your unfair matchmaking right there.
This can lead to both unfair matches and long queue times.
- Takes forever to find an unfair match "Woohoo!"
How players attain rank is the problem. As countless members within these forums have stated for the longest time. It is TOO EASY for survivors to rank up. Supposedly (can't prove) there are too many high (red rank) survivors?! This can explain why there are so many high (red/purple) ranks in every killer match.
So . . Why isn't this new hidden mmr not going to fix matchmaking? Because they haven't addressed how survivors rank up . . .
SWF
The same issue with ranked matchmaking will be the exact same within the upcoming hidden mmr. SWF not being ranked on individual skill, at least much less than individual solo skill, will undoubtedly carry a large pool of players to ranks they should not be within.
This creates the exact same issue the current . . visible . . . matchmaking has now.
Conclusion . . .
As usual with most overhauls of certain playable character or game mechanics this is yet another change that serves the developers agenda and or at a much less extent the players themselves.
This entire 'change' soul reason for being implemented is to finally have a reason/excuse to hide ranks or any information given to players in relation to the matchmaking system.
P.S. Mentioning SWF is in no way to attack that feature. It is here, it isn't going anywhere. Fact is that it has a massive impact on any type of matchmaking. I doubt it can or will ever be remedied.
Hey, since we can't see if it is affecting mmr anyway I guess we will never know. /s
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It is my opinion that if DBD could support a casual mode with it's player base and limited SWF to a that casual mode.
Then ranked would have much more diversity throughout. No more 'coordinated groups' climbing the ranks.
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This, you make a good point 😁
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The point is, how are we supposed to give developers feedback on a system we cannot see?
I can understand the background system because people can manipulate it, but the pip system, the developers are on their own if they want feedback from us about the ranking system. 😁
That's my only concern.
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I'm sure if they want our feedback on the finer points of how the system operates, they'll give us the information we need to do so. But the point of good matchmaking is to enhance player enjoyment. And we can tell them just from our own experience whether we are enjoying being matched with the teammates/opponents that we are. We don't need to see all the numbers for that.
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One example of the need to see players skill is when I was playing overwatch. Their match making would constantly pair me against people who had triple the amount of play time I had. The games hidden SR stat is suppose to compare my performance to the world average and if I did better my SR goes up. If I did worse than average it goes down. Being paired against people who had over 1000 hours into the game when I had barely 200 just made me ask
"Am I being matched with these people because I'm good and I deserve to be here? Or is it because the MM sucks and I'm only cannon fodder for them?"
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