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The fact that so many killers say the game is too hard and then complain about BT/DS speaks volumes
Now it is not my intention to ridicule anyone here but I’m going to be frank.
I HATED old DS. I hated it more than I have ever hated any perk in any game I’ve ever played. When new DS came along it was such a relief because finally I had some control over it. No longer would I be punished for just trying to get my first hook.
There are situations where new DS can be frustrating (endgame) for example but for the most part it doesn’t bother me. Its rare it ever becomes an issue. If you see the unhooked survivor just give them a slap and leave them down. The same for BT, just attack the person doing the rescue. The unhooked survivor is likely going to go find someone to heal him and waste time anyway.
I see so many killers in DBD that get too focussed on one survivor. They want one out of the game as soon as possible. They commit to lengthy chases due to tunnel vision because they see someone who is injured, or they see a survivor who has already used their DS. They allow these survivors to run them to corners of the map with no gens. They wait around hooks for the survivors to come to them, rather than going out to see the survivors that are sat on generators.
I see this game after game after game and often the killers don’t even realize they’re doing it because they’re so caught up in the moment.
I can find killer to be challenging sometimes but not nigh-on impossible like the community makes it out to be. I find Dead Hard far more frustrating. I see it every game and its basically a free pallet, a free loop, and a free health state for the survivor. Likewise for Adrenaline. I’m chasing a survivor and they get healed and boost off in front of me.
With Dead Hard there’s nothing I can do. I’m in the chase with the survivor about to get a hit and DH gives them the few inches they need to make the pallet. I have no other options. Whereas with BT or DS I can still apply pressure by going for the person who did the rescue.
The best killers on stream also rarely seem to get hit by DS or they choose to take it when it’s strategic.
In short if you find BT and DS above and beyond every other survivor perk in terms of frustration and you constantly find survivors eat up too much time and the game is almost impossible to win then perhaps its time to reflect on how you’re playing. Record your gameplay and ask yourself “did I really need to take that DS? Did I really need to chase that guy? Was I too focussed on one survivor? Was I wearing blinders and lost in the moment?”
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DS, BT, and Adrenaline are fine by themselves. Its only when used in means outside of the anti tunneling intended by the devs, that most complaints come from. They are hardly used as anti-tunneling skills at red ranks, they are used in a manner to give survivors 2 minutes or so of invulnerability or get out of jail free cards against the killer. SWF all running meta perks can trade off those 2 minutes of invulnerability that essentially makes the killer useless. Its usually done at EGC if well executed by the survivors.
And if you are bitching about Dead Hard as a killer you are a straight up rank 20 killer. its by far the one perk survivors have that rewards skillful play and execution, especially when the dedicated servers take a #########.
You can slug all you want but when you slug 3 survivors after a team bodyblocks an unhook with BT, DS and Adrenaline, and that one BT unhook taps a 99'd gen, all 3 of those slugs now turn into the Flash.
Its the not the perks that cause frustration its how they are used at higher ranks, that causes frustration.
As a Killer main, I dont blame any survivor for running these perks or using them in this manner. They are there to be used and if you are not using them, then you are gimping yourselves. Its up to the devs to balance their game.
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I think DS's intended purpose strays far away from how it is actually used, but other than that I see no real reason to complain about something like Adrenaline or BT.
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The problem with DS is how it is used offensively by survivors instead of defensively as it was intended. It is meant to be an anti tunneling perk, and if you tunneled off hook and got hit by DS, great job bud, you fulfilled Decisive's purpose.
However, the timer is so long, that by the time you go after the unhooker, down them, and hook them, assuming this is a relatively normal chase, the timer will still have a good 20 seconds left, meaning if you find the survivor, you are SOL. They can sit on a gen right in front of your face without fear, hop in a locker mid chase, play dumb and super risky, hook dive, ect. Meanwhile, you think that DS is deactivated because it is nearly impossible to keep track of the timer while managing 4 survivors, 7 generators, dozens of pallets, windows, and loops, your own power, traps, totems, 20 perks, and on and on, is nearly impossible.
DS should be a defensive, anti tunnel perk and that's it. Not a really offensive, anti tunnel perk you can wave in the killers face for 60-120 seconds.
As for Dead Hard, I partly agree. Maybe I'm just getting potato survivors on bad maps, but I rarely see Dead Hard extend the chase all too much. Sure, maybe sometimes the stars will align, and David will pull some amazing Dead Hard, and extend the chase for the rest of the game, but I barely see it happen. Maybe it's because I play Wraith, who is really easy to bait it with his cloaking animation, I dunno. They use it on me once during their first chase, I remember, bait a hit, they go down and die.
Adrenaline, I feel your pain there.
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DH rewards skill? Tap E when running towards a pallet?
If you use it to dodge then yeah but most good survivors know to use it for distance. At that point there’s nothing the killer can do. Those few extra inches they get is the difference between getting hit at a pallet and getting the safe pallet drop.
Adrenaline is bad yeah because it has no purpose other than to screw the killer at the last second.
BT and DS while they can be strong and used to an advantage at least they serve the purpose of helping survivors have a bit more time in the game than getting camped/tunneled out instantly. It helps the game health because having the killer circle the hook and known you down immediately is a massive flaw in the game which really hurts peoples enjoyment.
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If a single pallet or couple seconds added to a chase by DH causes you to lose a chase, you lost that chase before it started. They outplayed you. You can bait out a DH fairly easy, mind game it, If a survivor is so good they are looping you for the 3+ gens, you should have abandoned that chase almost immediately. You need to learn to spot who to chase and who not to chase rather fast at higher ranks or you lost the match already. Its a once per chase use perk with a 40 second cooldown of walking or standing still to recuperate. Dedicated servers screw over DH about half the time.
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Nobody said it loses chase.
What I’m saying is its a perk that extends the chase and its only purpose is to extend the chase and if you’re chasing a survivor there likely isn’t too many other options nearby and you’re not even playing in a dirty way.
vs DS where you know the survivor was unhooked less than 60 seconds ago, you’re choosing to tunnel, you’ve likely got the guy who just unhooked nearby and the perk at least serves a purpose as helping a survivor who is being singled out.
Or maybe I just see other perks as more annoying because I don’t camp/tunnel therefore DS/BT have little effect against me.
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Now that I can agree with.
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DS/BT are not anti-tunnel perks at red ranks, they are offensive perks there.
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That wont affect you too much if you dont allow them to?
Thats my point. “Oh no that survivor just hooked in front of my face before I even had time to leave! Oh wait the one that unhooked is fresh meat”
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Monkey see monkey do
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BT is mostly fine, but it is annoying (as killer) during the EGC. As survivor I love it; as long the person being unhooked is able to take the hit, BT is basically a guaranteed escape during the EGC.
DS as an anti-tunneling perk would be fine, but it's used for 60 seconds of immunity and that's not fine. If the survivor isn't being tunneled, the killer shouldn't get DS'd. There are certain situations in which DS should deactivate. And it really, really sucks to not tunnel survivors all match and then get punished for it end game by getting DS'd.
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No I slug them and wait a minute. I have my phone next to me when i play so i can see when a minute has passed. I have already given a scenario that is very common at red ranks on how DS/BT/Adrenaline are abused. You are either too dense to understand or are trolling.
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It isn't losing a chase, it is extending the chase.
Using DH for distance often means you can run an extra loop around or reach a pallet you otherwise never would be able to. And once you reach that pallet it often means you will be able to reach the next pallet/window to extend a chase that much longer.
You can't bait that out. If caught out in the middle of nowhere, yeah you can bait a DH dodge easy enough. But that isn't the same thing.
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Yes, yes you can. And if you extending a chase to were its costing you the match, then you have already lost that chase, as you should have never engaged it. Learn to play smarter and not just blindly chase every survivor you see.
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This.
Most killers I know don't hate DS because they always tunnel, but because it's far more versatile than it deserves to be.
BT and DH are annoying, but hardly game breaking, but getting a 4man adrenaline is just not even very fair. The only counter is NOED, even then that's a gamble. Killers can't deny Adrenaline, and survivors can counter NOED. Not only that, but NOED is also ridiculed heavily when Adrenaline isn't. It's a bit of a double standard, and I think that's the main reason why killers complain about survivor perks.
They see that survivor perks get way more love than killer ones. In the last Dev Q&A, they mentioned perks they're planning to buff, and there was 1 killer perk and 5 survivor ones.... right after the loss of one of the strongest killer perks in the game. People are salty. Hell, I'm a little salty about Ruin's change, since the change doesn't adress the main reason for Ruin's introduction into the game.
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Funny. I play killer and ds isn’t an issue. If I do get struck I recover and get them again. I don’t tunnel much at all so it’s never been an issue. People need to get over this ds thing lol
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Adrenaline has become much better now, because games last less long and you have a higher chance that you will need it. It's an endgame perk like NOED.
In red ranks are many swf teams. Imagine, everyone runs ds / dead hard / adrenalin and bt. You would get nothing done as killer.
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You are the one asking for killers speed to be lowered while buffing survivors base speed. Sounds like you barely play killer and are a rank 20 survivor.
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Funny how many veteran players like myself agree that optimal survivors is a balance issue.
Guess all of us red rank killers are bad at the game then. We should start learning from survivor mains since playing killer is not that difficult for them.
On a side note, I'll go ahead and explain why people have a problem with DS and BT.
DS is obvious. 60 seconds of pickup immunity is not an anti-tunnel effect. Survivors use that time to make reckless plays, which would normally be punished by the killer.
The easiest way to solve this issue would be to put deactivation conditions on DS. If a survivor gets fully healed, touches a generator, or unhooks another survivor, then that survivors loses their DS protection. The rationale is obvious. You aren't being tunneled in those situations.
I'm still on the fence about locker plays though.
BT is a bit more complicated. People don't like the perk because survivors will use BT to body block for a healthy survivor. That's obviously not a pleasant experience for the killer and should be changed somehow.
However, I also would like to see BT buffed at the same time. I think DS should be distance-based and not terror radius-based. I don't think Freddy and stealth killers should get a free pass to quickly down a survivor who just got unhooked.
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Yeah, that's how to play Killer. Ignore the Survivors and don't chase them.
If you don't chase Survivors, you'll never do anything. Sometimes it is better to break off of a chase if they get too much of a head start. Let them run around and do nothing while you pressure someone else. But if all you do is break off of chases, you'll never drain Survivor resources for later. You'll never down/hook enough to kill anyone. You'll lose the game if you don't attempt to kill.
Stop thinking in black/white and stop assuming you know more than everyone else. It isn't just a single DH use or a single chase. It is multiple DH uses over multiple chases against multiple Survivors. And it is more than just DH as well. Everything adds up into something few Killers stand a chance against.
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Killers can't deny Adrenaline? Yes they can. Don't let the gens get done. And if they do, a good killer should have half or 3/4 players killed by then.
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Yes you have to chase, but you chose who to chase. If there is a survivor that is clearly a better looper than you are chaser as a killer, identifying that early on and focusing other survivors will apply more pressure on the survivors and benefit you more overall. You want to get that survivor that is better than you, use the pressure on the other survivors to draw him out into situations where they will not have an easy time. But sure go ahead and chase that survivor with 4k hours while they loop back to back jungle gyms while the generators are all popping.
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Adrenaline screw the killers last second?
Or maybe it rewards a survivor who decides to finish the last gen instead of wasting time looking for a heal. Especially if theres one or more dead already.
5 gens get done, and they get one free health state. Oh noes.
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What about a survivor coming off of a hook fully healed? they didnt finish the last gen, hell its even possible they didnt work on a gen the whole game.
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Each perk, item and killer power should come with a couple 30 seconds or so long clips. One to give a couple ideas to best use that perk/item/power and one to give some examples to best counter it.
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"Now it is not my intention to ridicule anyone here ... "
I only got this far and had to stop reading. Why? Because I don't read posts when someone blatantly lies like this (its ClickyClicky).
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Possible, yes, but they did survive until the endgame, and got one state from it. Unless you were camping them, theyd likely get away regardless. And if you ARE camping them, it takes one extra hit. Hardly impossible before they get out.
If that one health state, on one person, throws your ENTIRE GAME, you likely didnt have a good game anyway. With 1 or 2 alive, that one person probably cant heal and get to the door, when the other has just been flagged by a then going off. If 3 or 4 are alive when 5 gens are done, you've already failed, one person getting away from adrenaline isnt going to change that, and at that point in the game (4 gens done, 1 survivor on hook), you should likely be worrying about a different survivor ANYWAY.
And people ALREADY get rewarded for not doing any work. Hide and escape, hatch, using others as a distraction. Their BP and pip will reflect that.
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Youre also forgetting that person will have a speed boost which will allow that survivor to make distance on the killer, then when they get hit they get another speed boost. and by the time you get to them their teammates are taking hits.
Also the devs have stated several times that the game isnt "over" when all gens are done. so you really didnt fail, especially if you are using an endgame build.
also what if you have 2 people slugged and youre going for the last guy on the last gen when suddenly he pops it and he gets a speed boost and the people on the ground get a health state and a speed boost?
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So now you're assuming 2 people are using it now. And the speed boost is minimal. Its maybe a sprint burst equivalent. I didnt forget it, I ignored it.
And if you slug 2 people to go for the last, instead of hooking one of them first, is on you. Unless you are worried for the hatch, leaving 2 slugs isnt the smartest idea. Hook one, slug one, find one. The one on a gen will either get caught, try to save, therefore not finish the gen, or finish it, leaving you with a hook and ONE adrenaline use.
Let's go more hypothetical. What if the killer is using NOED? Speed is added and now the health state is irrelevant.
Or rancor? Bitter murmur? Now you know where they all are AND can insta down and mori one.
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BT I find completely fine and balance but I canť agree with DS.
I think most of the killer playerbase would be more happy with DS is it was actually anti-tunneling perk and not 60s immunity from the killer perk. I don't really mind new DS (it's 100% better then the old one to be sure) but I think it could use a change or two.
I think that it should receive a buff and a nerf at the same time. We should buff it's anti-tunneling potencial and nerf it's immunity for free potencial.
For example a nerf could be to make it so that DS deactivates on same conditions like the old one + whenever survivor starts doing any interaction besides normal chase interactions and self healing or beiing healed.
And a buff to compensate for that would be something that would make it even harder for killer that actually tunnels said survivor. Like the timer doesn't tick down in chase/killer proximity or something similar.
Unfortunately I doubt devs care about these issues since it wasn't 2 years from the last DS change yet so I'm pretty sure that this would be really low on priority list. One can only hope.
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you would slug the last two to pressure the last gen otherwise you are straight out of luck and they finish the last gen. i can tell you dont play killer that often because you would know how devastating it is to have every survivor on death hook and lose all your momentum because of one perk without a counter. if iwould have hooked one the guy on the ground would have gotten up and would have been healed by his teammate. and they would escape. great job. you just safety pipped.(not a win in my eyes or to even others)
The difference between adrenaline and NOED is that noed is fully in the hands of survivors, they can prevent it before it even happens. you cant even prevent adrenaline. "stop the generators from being repaired" thats like saying " dont get hooked and you wont get tunneled".
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See, this is where I'm done debating with you. You assume you know what I do and dont play, because you play differently. I DO know what it's like to lose momentum, and ya know what? ######### HAPPENS. Ya know what else causes devastating momentum loss? Slugging two people, to look for a third, only to have him ignore the gen and save the other two, or have one of them with unbreakable.
There are too many variables for you to be able to say "tsk, I know you dont play killer, because you dont play how I do with my mindset and loadout".
Ntm your first paragraph ignored the part about the 5th gen still needing to be done for them to escape.
I also wasnt comparing NOED to adrenaline, just using hypotheticals to prove that it's too random to KNOW that you're right every time.
You just want to see what you see, draw conclusions, and prove me wrong with facts that are irrelevant in the conversation, ignoring other main points.
Also, not a tin in your eyes doesnt mean it's not to others. My win is having a fun time playing the game. ######### a 4k. Sorry you're hung up on pips for a rank system that doesnt actually exist or matter. 🤷♀️
I'm out, because your hypothetical situation keeps changing, and at this point you refuse to hear reason or logic, and have turned this into," nuh uh, YOU dont play killer, I'm better than you because XYZ."
Enjoy your day! I cant talk to brick walls anymore.
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Okay? Don't let them get the gens done then. It rewards survivors for completing their objective. As is, they play 95% of the game with 3 perks for a CHANCE they may get a free health state. Even when you do, a lot of the times you're already healed or it heals you when it doesn't matter. Hell, half of the time it screws you because of the speed boost. I'd rather have Dead Hard available than the Sprint Burst.
The perk is entirely fine.
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Adrenaline stay inactive until gens get done or end game start up with the closure of the hatch. I remember when prework freddy was wasting time with the 7 sec sleep just to hit the survivor cause of the wake up call from adrenaline. That was the annoying part.
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Overall, mechanicly, my only issue with DS is that it works off grabs. If you screwed up enough to get grabbed off a gen or locker, then you shouldn't get DS.
Heck, I'd even take only deactivating on locker grab, so that cheese isn't available.
Beyond that, my only real beef with DS is that they upped the stun time due to enduring, then when they changed enduring they didn't change the stun time.
And my only issue with BT is an issue with Legion. Specifically, Deep Wounds. Having an effect be used in a survivor buff AND a killer kit is... Kinda dumb. It makes it so you can't really do anything with it. As make it too killer sided and the buff becomes bad, make it too survivor sided, and Legion suffers even more. As it is right now, Borrowed Time is now basically just a free health state.
I vote for rework Legion, and make Deep Wounds a survivor only status, and maybe remove mending so you have to find an ally? Or some way that it's not just a free health state you can extend as long as you want untill you can heal yourself? Idk, I'm just naming things.
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There are no tutorials on psychopathy, you just.....do it. Learn the hunt and do it.
Also, OP is being highly disingenuous saying killers (assuming killer mains) complain about DS and BT and DH.... DS got nerfed....I could care less if an entire team brought it to the match, annoying sure, but it'll only buy you about 5 seconds in my chases. Buying time? Couldn't care less, doesn't matter who I hit afterwards if you're the one saving them you're about to go down soon, and if you're the one being saved, you just gave me a free stun on your location as you mend, you're not going anywhere. And dead hard....aside from giving yourself a slight boost to reach a pallet or a window, you're likely again only saving a few seconds. Which is no time at all in a pig or plague game due to objective coverage and natural built in pressure.
Now if I was a trapper main.....I'd be pissed.
You guys need to understand that not all killers are created equal. A problem for 1 is not a problem for all. So when you see someone complain about something, instead of netting all killers into 1 box, try to ask the person complaining what killer they're playing. For instance, cannibal doesn't give a single ######### about BT for obvious reasons including Legion and Myers. And a lot of Huntress players don't give a single good god damn about DH. Tons of pigs and plagues don't care about DS as they have mechanics built in that follow a survivor into their doom even without them being hooked.
The only side in this game that can have blanket statements thrown at them are Survivors, which are literally just different skins.
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I've actually been thinking about this lately, mostly in relation to DS. BT is better then it was, but I'm not so sure about DS. A few things there; back before after the first batch of nerfs to DS, only one person got immediatly, everyone had to wiggle, and they could be juggled to a hook. Now, everyone gets it as soon as they get off a hook and have 60 seconds of invulnerability with no counter play. You can slug them to mitigate it, but you still can't do anything to overcome it. Secondly, you could use Enduring to mitigate old DS, but they nerfed it for no other reason then to make it so that DS users got the full 5 seconds they 'deserved'. At this point, I would rather go back to old first nerfed DS if we also got back prenerfed Enduring.
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You can't know a Survivor is good at looping without being looped by him. You can't know a map tile has a bad loop without seeing it for yourself and having the chase lead to that tile. By the time you figure out you are in a bad chase, even if you started it in your favor, you already spent time in that chase. To break off of that chase you already put time/effort into without having gained anything from it is you choosing to lose the game by wasting your own time.
So what you are saying, and I may be reading it wrong. Is to spend time finding a Survivor, spend more time to figure out his looping skill and/or the map tiles, and THEN decide to break off the chase only to hope you find another Survivor and hope he isn't good at looping nor is already at a strong loop. If the 2nd Survivor is good at looping, do you break off of him as well?
Im sorry, but you read like someone who doesn't know jack about Killer gameplay and assumes it is as easy as holding W with an odd M1 click. Or at least someone who never puts any real thought into his gameplay in general. Either way, your replies here reek of bulls***
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DS is annoying, but I eat it intentionally more often than not if they're between 1st and 2nd hook to avoid it coming back to bite me later.
Many survivor perks are get out jail free cards. Killers have them too, to be sure, but the survivor meta is centered around second chances, and it can create a balance issue when you have 16 second chances.
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At red ranks, you mean versus a killer between rank 16 and rank 1 as that is matchmaking.
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OOF. Imagine almost everyone shooting your opinion down like that. It's almost as if you're wrong.
Also imagine a thread like this coming from a person who complains that Hillbilly is overpowered.
Top KEK.
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Imagine over-generalizing everything and insulting someone for disagreeing with you while also providing nothing to the discussion.
Top KEK
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There were zero insults in my post. I was definitely sarcastic and facetious, but there were no insults. Telling someone they are wrong isn't an insult. Stating fact (that the majority has shot down their opinion) is not an insult. Reiterating their own previous opinions is not an insult.
Nice try though, bud. That's all it was though. A try.
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Zero insults?
Also imagine a thread like this coming from a person who complains that Hillbilly is overpowered.
You're literally making fun of him posting this because he thinks Hillbilly is OP in another thread. You always seem to just have this mentality of "I didn't directly say it, so it didn't happen" but you imply things every time. You're like the annoying younger brother who always antagonizes everything but didn't directly "do anything". Grow up.
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"This thread was made by the same person who complains Hillbilly is overpowered".
I fail to see the insult here. Or is this one of those overzealous interpretations that is a result of heavily digging, looking for something to complain about?
That's like me saying "You're 5'2", but because you're uncomfortable with your height, you call it an insult. Stating fact is not an insult. Even if it doesn't make them look particularly good.
Keep on keeping on, budski; but if I were you I'd retreat. You have no basis here are, and are only serving to both make yourself look overly sensitive (over nothing, really), and derail the thread even more.
Even STILL. If you really want to be technical, someone complaining about Hillbilly being overpowered in half their posts has no business insulting killers (by your definition and logic, you see what I did there?) on such a large scale for being angry about certain things that are much more OP than Hillbilly (cause he isn't OP at all).
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Not in the traditional sense. And not with how quickly they can all get done, especially at red ranks.
There is no way to counter Adrenaline like people can deny NOED. It just doesn't have the possibility.
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Not sure what killers your talking about, because I really don't come in contact with any killers that talk about BT/DS. And it's not because I'm a killer main or what ever, I play both sides equally and just don't come into contact with them lol.
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Make Your Choice: Great way to get another Hooking while not tunneling, plus it's a passive DS timer.
Also, Wraith, so no BT for me.
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I rarely see NOED denied. It usually always comes into play unless a player has a specific vendetta against totems, (which in that case, that's more gen time for ya).
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