Dont hide the MMR
Theres no point in hiding MMR especially if you wanna improve yourself and see if you're good. Rumors are ALREADY starting that you're lying about this new MMR system and removing the ability to see ranks just so people stop complaining so I think its best if you just show our and everyone elses MMR post game and in the lobby
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Yeah, if ranks will no longer reflect skill but "time spent in game" then why hide them?
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they do it because the matchmaking system is ######### and they try to hide it so we can't complain. Every change they make only makes the game worse, I don't know what they think
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It should stay hidden. there shouldn't be a way to abuse it. Though I think that the system won't be able to pick up on all variables, I don't want a system that can be abused more than what emblem system we have now. Which is abused, but also caters to a certain playstyle.
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How would showing what our MMR is abuse?
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Ranks ALREADY dont reflect skill, but only time played.
Its ALREADY a matchmaking tool.
Hiding them would make sense because it represents NOTHING.
However it should have been hidden from the start, because this "ranking system" isnt one, and it only makes people think it's the word of god in terms of who's good, bad, or how balanced things are. To take it and hide it now WITHOUT AN ACTUAL RANKED SYSTEM to replace it, it will only cause chaos.
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Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant showing what is considered playing "poorly" and playing "well". I guess it would be nice to know what category you fall into MMR wise and see your MMR status. Don't really know any other games that provide this information, but I don't think it would be abusable in those regards!
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Oh its okay we all misread things sometimes!
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I intially thought the same as you, but even so I think it's best that it stays hidden. It's only non-abusable as long as players don't know how the system works, and showing our MMR would make it easier for a few smart cookies to figure out the algorithm.
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Yeah but it also masks the problem, allowing for a lot of rumors to start which will end with people leaving the game because no one will believe it was truly implemented, is really inconvenient since you don't know if you're doing good or if you're doing horrible, and doesn't help you improve.
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You know you're doing well if you outplay your opponents. You don't need a number to tell you that.
And there are plenty of other games with a hidden MMR system where players don't leave because of it. If people are going to leave the game just based on their own speculation about what the devs are up to, quite frankly they need to get a grip. The problem there is the community, not the developers.
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its either the player base is now too small to adequately fill the queues for balanced matchmaking or the devs are not willing or can not fix the matchmaking and throwing it behind a curtain. Not being able see the ranking/elo scores of players you just played against means they can fill queues unevenly and players just toss it up to a bad match when a rank 20 killer gets stomped on by a red rank swf.
Hiding mmr/elo before a match finishes prevents lobby dodge based on rank but it serves no purpose to the player base to hide it after the match finishes. By all means change the rank system over to elo but actually show the players their ranks and others they just finished playing with. But if all you want is rank 1's stomping baby survivors or killers then I guess the devs are throwing in the towel.
If BHVR really wants the community to have blinders on, then give us the option to toggle rank visibility so those who are to insecure about their rank dont have to look at, and those of us that are used to competitive games and elo systems can use it to analyze how we played relative to elo's in the lobby.
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If the Devs are actually hiding ranks instead of fixing MM... that's just ridiculous. Making a lot of controversial changes lately.. very risky. Do they really want to kill their player base?
No one at red ranks want to be paired with rank 20 survivors and vice versa.
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As I said, maybe they don't want people to be able to analyse the system because that puts them a step closer to decoding the algorithm, which would defeat the point of having a hidden algorithm in the first place.
Competitive games like League don't show you your own MMR or anyone else's, to my knowledge, and nobody cares because nobody expects Riot to give players access to all their data. So why do DBD players act like we have the right to know anything that goes on behind the scenes?
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I personally would rather have some people trying to abuse the system than not knowing if the ststem exist at all. Because this is what hiding ranks/skill rating/matchmaking will lead to.
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I wouldn't. We don't need to know what's going on behind the scenes, and we have no right to. If they say "we're introducing X feature" they don't need to prove to us that they are doing what they say. All that should matter to us as players is the end user experience. We can give feedback on whether we're feeling an improvement in our gameplay experience or not as far as the relative skill of our opponents/teammates goes without needing to know exactly what's happening on the other end.
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Unfortunately most people just cannot trust them, because current system does not work at all. Just showing our and enemy Skill Rating in the end game screen, just like we can see ranks now, would let us know if 1.matchmaking works and 2.we played good or not. I dont think it would be enough to abuse anything, but it would be enough to trust devs.
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Please don't show HIDDEN mmr. It has a good reason to be hidden.
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That reason is?
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By good reason you mean what? Being able to lie that it works while it does not? Because thats the only reason why devs would hide it.
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You don't need a number in the tally screen to know if you played well. You can judge that just by how good you were at outplaying your opponent. And you don't need a number to know if matchmaking is working, either - the purpose of matchmaking is ultimately to make players feel like they are on an even playing field, skill-wise, and if you can judge your own skill, you can judge your teammates' and opponents' as well. If the game felt evenly matched, that's all the information you need to know that matchmaking is doing its job.
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Well yes, I need it. Outplaying rank 20 surviviors is not a display of skill. I know that you can notice when you are playing vs rank 20, but this is just a feeling, no definite proof.
Even if the new matchmaking will work, Im sure that after some time it will start making mistakes, like every system. Without any feedback or complaints backed with definite proof, devs will probably not care enough to fix it.
Can you say that devs would fix the current matchmaking if not for the countless screenshots showing how bullshit it is?
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Yes, I think they would have. Because they have access to that data themselves. Players don't need to back up their feedback with any proof other than their own experience, and the developers don't expect them to. The devs are the ones with the stats. They would have known that people were being matched with others far outside their rank bracket even without players providing screenshots. Our job isn't to back up our claims with stats, it's to tell them what our experience of the game is like, perhaps make some suggestions as to what we think could be improved, so that they can make changes accordingly... or not, as the case may be.
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People will be less toxic.
Mmr system won't get exploited that much/easy.
You still see your "rank" if it means something to you.
There are still factors like different maps, killers, (survivor)perks which can affect "mmr" so it still wouldn't be on point.
If you do good, you will know. If you ######### up, you will know. You will "feel" the mmr anyways, no need to see it.
But IF they show something they better introduce "mmr rewards"
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If they showed the MMR they would actually have to make that system. Now they just say hidden MMR and call it working match making when there will be none.
BHVR likes band aids and this whole matchmaking system will be another one.
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Did you REALLY just say "We shouldn't use proof for our claims just personal experiences!" Im sorry but that is...kinda dumb
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Exactly what I was thinking
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I cant count how many people are complaining about things and nothing is being done.
Example: the infamous "aim assist". People call it that because thats what they think it is, devs call it "animation enhancement" because they know how it works. The system does not let you hit surviviors you should not have, but does 2 probably the most annoying things currently:
- Missing 360ing surviviors.
- Hook tech.
It is clear that there should be an option to disable it but devs do nothing, becuse most players are not even aware how ot works or even exists.
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Nope, not what I said. What I said was that your own personal experience is all you can be expected to rely upon when giving feedback on someone else's design. Because when you're giving feedback on a design, any claims you make are subjective. You can't "prove" an opinion.
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Why not show MMR to see if matchmaking was REALLY fixed instead of "I just feel this way."
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Maybe those people should consider the possibility that the developers have reasons we don't know about for not listening to certain complaints. For example, they haven't listened to people suggesting that generator times need to be extended - not because they aren't acknowledging game length as an issue, but because they're exploring different and more engaging methods for addressing it.
Since they're the ones actually working on the game, they can see the big picture, they know their own plans, and all we see is what's in front of us right now, maybe we should acknowledge that instead of assuming that we're the only ones to which the necessary changes are "clear".
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I already explained above why it's a bad idea to show MMR. I can't think of a better way to express my point than I already have, so I'm not just going to repeat myself.
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Yeah not sure why a game like overwatch hasn't been exploited or even figured out yet then even though its playerbase is like 10x larger. Overwatch shows MMR so you'd think its ranking system would be exploited all to hell right now huh? But its not soooo
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Developers are the ones doing changes, but it does not mean we cant send feedback or complain. Hiding things takes that away from us. If devs believe our claims are bullshit, then they just ignore them, and do whatever they want with their game, but they cant just hide all controversial things from players because "they know what they are doing"
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And yet, there are plenty of posts online analysing the Overwatch MMR algorithm, and plenty more explaining the best ways to derank according to it. If Blizzard wants to display MMR, knowing the risks, that's their decision. There are plenty of other extremely popular games, like League, that don't. It doesn't mean it's a good idea for DBD.
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Yeah but League devs as far as I know aren't prone to sweeping things under the rug, lying, and pretending everything is fine so people stop complaining. The DBD devs are prone to these things so they NEED to show proof for their work like a middle school math equation. If we could trust these devs they wouldn't need too but they've shown to be seriously untrustworthy
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Of course it doesn't mean we can't give feedback. I've said the whole time that feedback and complaints are great, but we don't need data to base them on. They have all the data regardless of how much players have. If a player's complaint is legitimate, and matches up with what their data tells them, they will take it on board. If a player's complaint is not legitimate, and doesn't line up with the data or with the experiences of other players, even if that player has screenshots or numbers to back up their complaint, the devs will likely dismiss it. Again, players don't need to prove that their complaints are legitimate. The developers will listen to them, or not, regardless.
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They don't "need" to do anything. It's their game, and we have (temporarily) purchased the right to play it. We're not their teachers. It's not our job to tell them how to make their game. It's our job to give them critical feedback about how we think it could be improved, based on our own experiences with it, for the sake of everyone involved. But at the end of the day, the game is their property, and they get the final say.
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But what will you say to them without data?
"I feel matchmaking does not work."
And they say "We have data that shows it works.
End of discussion.
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Yep. Because you are one person and your experience is not universal. And they would say the exact same thing even if you gave them 100 screenshots of games you had played where it wasn't working. Again, they don't disregard a particular piece of feedback because it's not backed up by proof, they disregard it because they have their own reasons to believe that it's inconsequential - reasons that have nothing to do with anything the player can or cannot provide to back up their complaint. They are not more or less likely to listen to a complaint because it has screenshots accompanying it, because there is no data you can give them that they don't already have access to.
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What problem are they trying to fix? Matchmaking or people complaining about Matchmaking. If it is the former, they should show it and then people can give feedback. If it is the latter, then you can see why they are hiding the rating.
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You're right, screw the playerbase! Screw everyone who plays this game right? Its their game so we dont matter at all!
I hope you don't actually think the things you say and are only saying it because you're trusted
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Screenshots are proof, because it shows that "there are instances where matchmaking is NOT working". This does not mean that it does not work at all, but that it SOMETIMES does not.
But what if you stream 100 games in a row and show matchmaking results? You can make a statistic and show that for an average player matchmaking does not work AT ALL.
While feeling that "I think it does not work" proves nothing.
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I never said that, I have said from the beginning that players have an important role to play in giving feedback on the game, and it is in BHVR's best intersts as a business to do what they can to improve the players' experience. All I'm saying here is that it is the developer's prerogative to choose whether or not they want to listen to the feedback we give, and we shouldn't behave as if we have the right to make them do whatever we want with their game.
But if you're going to be disingenuous and put words into my mouth with every reply you make, maybe it's best that we end the conversation here, as it's obviously not going anywhere productive. All I can say is that if you treat the developers' comments with the same bad faith you're treating mine, it's no wonder you find it easy to believe the worst of them.
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You're not listening to what I'm saying. I never said you can't give proof, I said that proof will not matter when it comes to giving feedback, because all feedback is subjective and anecdotal and you can't "prove" an opinion. The devs will listen to what you have to say, or not, regardless of how many screenshots you have to support it.
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I understand, its just that sometimes devs judge feedback to be not relevant and ignore it, proof makes it impossible to ignore to some extent, If devs deny something hard enough, you can make community wide experiment and try to prove them wrong.
Hiding matchmaking values would make that impossible and allow devs to pretend that the problem does not exist.
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Your exact words "We shouldn't feel we have the right to have our feedback listened too." You say they want whats best for the playerbase but when the playerbase comes together and says "Hey we HATE this change please change it!" They blatantly ignore us they ignore EVERYTHING we say and its ridiculous. You know they do so stop acting like the devs even care about us because they've shown us by pushing through this recent patch, leaving huge game breaking loops and perks in the game, and not even fixing issues that they said they'd fix YEARS ago, that they could care less what we want if it doesn't make them any money.
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Possibly, but as I said, the point of matchmaking is ultimately to give players a good experience and make them feel like they are on a level playing field, skill-wise. If the players are unsatisfied and not having fun, it won't matter whether the players can prove that there's something wrong or not - it's in the devs' best interests, as a business, to do something to address the issue and improve the player experience.
If they want to make up lies or excuses and dismiss concerns, they can do so to the same effect regardless of whether players can see the numbers or not - instead of saying "don't worry, the numbers are fine" they could easily say "don't worry, the numbers you're seeing are bugged and inaccurate". But they have no actual incentive to do that, because in either case the player experience is suffering, and that's the important part for both them and us.
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Because we don't have that right. Having our feedback listened to is a privilege, not a right. We are not entitled to anything from the developers. Every one of us agreed to a EULA which states exactly that.
And of course the developers want to make money. They're a business. That doesn't mean they don't care about the players or their experience, because it's actually in their best financial interests to make the player experience as enjoyable as possible, which is why they don't ignore everything we say and they do make changes that they believe are for the betterment of the game. Just because they aren't doing exactly what you think they should be doing does not mean they're doing nothing.
I understand your frustration, but it's becoming very clear that you are going to believe what you want to believe, about the developers and about me, unless I roll over and tell you you're right. I made this reply mainly to clarify what I said, since you seem to have grossly misinterpreted it, but otherwise I think it's best we end this here before things get too heated.
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This is why I think they should show it.
It would show people that skill matchmaking works, and now the only concern would be making sure that skill rating reflects actual skill of the player.
Its really a good thing to be able to compare yourself with other players, seeing numbers yourself is different than "feeling".
I dont think just showing skill rating could lead to abuse of the system, while players will benefit from being able to see it
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I see what you're saying about the idea that being able to see the numbers could give players a kind of confidence. From a UX perspective, I agree it would be nice in that sense.
However, I'm not convinced that showing us the numbers wouldn't do more harm than good. Perhaps we could have a compromise where it shows us not our exact MMR, but rather an approximation of it, similarly to how rank is displayed in LoL, for example.
And on top of that, it's also possible that the devs do intend to do something along those lines at a later date, and they are hiding the numbers for now so that they can test the system independently and without player input, since the DBD community do have a tendency to jump the gun and condemn changes before they've even had a chance to test them properly. If I were a dev, I would probably want to test it privately at first without having to deal with an immediate storm of complaints about the system not working properly the second it goes live.
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