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Scott Jund's Trial Warmup, FIXED!
Comments
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I think this is a terrible idea. So now a slugging killer has more incentive to do so, but also there is a huge detriment to other survivors for picking up their teammate? Sounds all kinds of abusable.
I think Scott's version is far preferable, since it's end condition is "ok you found them, now go play". From there it is on the skill of killer v. survivor to keep the game moving one direction or another.
The only condition I think is not really accounted for is AFK killer or the like. Survivors need a way to end the warmup as well, which I suggest would be get the first gen done. A gen popping tells the killer exactly where 1 or more survivors are, and if you didnt get there in the newly expanded time or down the first survivor then likely this game should be ended ASAP
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I like his suggestion. However, I do think that the warm-up should end only during a down, not if the survivor is chased or sniped by an early game hatchet.
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Again only a down makes it a usable. Plague could infect everyone.
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Survivors spawn next to gens at all ranks. I can finish the gen I jump on at the start of the match like 7/10 times before the killer finds me, and if he finds me someone else’s gen will pop instead. It’s just how the games go.
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I used to think Scott was really survivor sided until I started listening to some of the ideas he has. I really like his Trail warmup suggestion and it's a fix so basic it's probably the easiest fix they could ever do to this game.
The only reason why people are saying it's a busted idea is because of the chase mechanic itself being wonky. This is a minor fault in what I think is a complete fix over the whole headstart survivors get Vs a killer that has to set up or just has low mobility.
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Have you actually played killer yourself? Even as any killer they Will go like lightning the Gen speed is broken
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Slugging can't be punished? I mean you have no idea where they went after you killed them (fairly often anyway) and your wasting precious time looking for them or whoever might be healing them.
Oh no your crutch second life perk only works once a round god forbid it not hard counter an entire mechanic of the game ._. Stuff like Slugging, Regressing Gens, and yes occasionally camping if you've got half the team hooked are a necessary part of killer and honestly regressing gens could use a buff because right now it's not even worth it without pop goes the weasel
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Entering a chase is reliable, leaving a chase isn't.
Also, as someone else pointed out, Scott added 2 more conditions to the warm-up ending.
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I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
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You can initiate a chase against an AFK killer, or just move within 4 meters of them (since that is another one of the 3 conditions).
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Let's not make the mistake of trying to fix game balance with a hex perk again.
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I think that misses the whole point of the original suggestion, which is to slow things down before the killer can get in a chase and prevent a generator from going off before you can possibly get there. Slowing it down once they're already in a chase seems like a blanket nerf to survivors when the killer is failing to catch them.
More importantly, this would be a huge (probably unnecessary) buff to slugging. Either you'd have someone down (and as a result, there's fewer people on gens), or they'd get each other up and generators go 50% slower. That's a no lose situation for the killer.
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At the minute it solves a bunch of problems. Tell me how many nerf noed threads there are on these forums. This is an indirect nerf to it but in a smart way. Solves early slowdown and gives survivors a new objective before doing generators. Can't be abused in anyway and gives totem finding perks a new purpose.
I wish this wasn't the answer but at the minute I feel its the best solution.
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Again, you're still suggesting a band-aid fix to game balance with a perk locked behind DLC, just like Ruin.
Once again most killers would be forced to use that one perk because the game was balanced around it.
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I feel atm a lot of killers are forced to run pop and corrupt. If they don't then against a good team they are losing. The best slowdown gen perks will always become meta whether the game is perfectly balanced or not.
Being locked behind a paid dlc is probably better tbh. At lower ranks where survivors usually lose this won't be as commonly used. At higher ranks where it is needed it will be used more often.
If they added this then thought of a better way to balance the game then by all means nerf it to ruin level. But in the games current form I feel it solves more problems than it creates.
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It brings us back to square one. It'll just replace old Ruin and be used in 80% of games. It'll still be used in lower ranks, just as Ruin was (which is also DLC, but that didn't affect its usage much).
The fact that killers need to bring a slowdown perk every game indicates how unbalanced the game is. If you add an OP slowdown perk and pretend the game is balanced, real balance changes (fixing huge maps, etc.) won't ever come through.
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I think you are fundamentally wrong.
Chase mechanic IS UNreliable, if we are talking about precise timers (mending).
BUT Trial Warmup ends IMMEDIATELY after chase starts. So its not a matter of any precise timer, it just has to START.
There is no difference if gen speeds will increase 10 seconds earlier or later, chase start is a moment reliable enough to end the warmup phase.
The only problem are some abilities, but Scott made a correction and said that ANY killer event will end the warmup. So stalking, getting caught in a trap, etc will end the warmup too.
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How is this fixed? This creates a lot more problems than solutions. Infinite tombstone myers can get 4k without ever downing anyone.
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The thing is the perk isn't op though. The biggest difference was at low ranks the bad players couldn't hit skill checks and how random skill checks could be. Ruin had too much rng to it. Will a survivor spawn on my totem or will I get 5 skill checks in 10 seconds.
The map sizes need to be changed and some killers need buffed in general but I don't think this perk will stop that. It just gives them time to work on fixing maps like ormond, rotten fields, disturbed ward and other maps. That stuff will take time and this will do a good job helping with balance. One thing survivors hate the worst is noed so this removes that from the equation. It's designed so it can't be combined with thrill of the hunt and ruin which also helps.
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Unless the perk is used every game, it does nothing to balance the game overall. And if it IS used every game, that's also a problem.
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I dont think adding any hex perks to the game will fix ballance. It would be the same as reverting Ruin nerf and the game wasn't ballanced before with Ruin.
I think the idea of trial warmup as presented by Scott is good enough not to be abused and giving a "little", very little ballance to the game, specially to the beginning, since it can be the end for some killers depending on map and killer used. Would still be very welcomed.
As for how this discussion turned into how to slug teams I think its pretty pointless. Being able to slug or not depends more on personal skill and the skill of the team you are facing than the current ballance of the game. It takes much more skill from a killer to slug than a team to anti-slug. If you dont bundle all together while facing a slug tactic a good team can escape with a few hooks = entity displeased and almost no points for killer. The one thing that gives most points its hooking and sacrificing and the most interesting part of the game is chasing not staring at people on the ground.
Still, if it was an all round safe tactic we would expect it to be used so much it would reflect on kill numbers for all ranks and specially for red ranks, but it doesnt (Obs.: one of the most well known killers that ppl use slugging is Huntress and not only she needs skills, which influence her kill numbers, but also she is not top killer by far - which only reinforces the observation that it depends much more on skill than the ballance of the game).
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That's good. No mither and unbreakable would be more useful in matches 🥰
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Then the trial warmup can be abused by slugging killers so that it'd never end and survivors can't do gens.
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I understand Scott's idea but I do think it can be abused. There is no set up time since a smart team will send one player to get their attention. The conditions Scott set included me getting within 4m of the killer to stop the trial warm up.
Ruin wasn't balanced because of its random nature. If I spawn on the totem the killer has only 3 perks. If I'm doing a gen I can either get 1 skill check or 20. If good players could hit skill checks then ruin is pointless. This doesn't have the same level of rng which makes it far more reliable than ruin.
As I said before it does a good job till they fix the maps and once that happens I don't care if its nerfed or not. It's not op and stops the perk survivors hate the most (noed) from spawning.
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Yeah....no. None of that is true. It's got nothing to do with skill when three to four Survivors spawn closely and hit a gen together, right off the bat. For what you're saying to be even REMOTELY true, it would have to be an all solo queue, and that rarely happens at higher ranks.
Fact is, the first gen popping is what alerts most killers to their first chase, outside of perks like Discordance, or blind luck. You also assume with this argument that higher ranked killers would ever make the mistake of chasing the obvious Loopers, rather than observe the team to see who's got items from the start, and whoa trying to sneak vs. who's running immediately.
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Fact is this game revolves around Corrupt + Pop and Unbreakable + Decisive Strike. The balance problems run deep and a lot of it is the maps. I hope the warm up period gets implemented but I also hope they rework maps because I'm sick of every survivor instantly running to the god window on ironworks every time I so much as look at them funny. Like why does that still exist -_- Why are there loops that safe that it's possible to burn several minutes with zero chance of catching them while a gen pops every 30 seconds - which is less time than it takes to even walk to the gen half the time.
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Well said
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Did you watch the video? The Trial ends when a chase begins/survivor loses a health state/killer is within 4m of a survivor so your arguement doesn't hold up.
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Warmup sure can be "abused" to some degree, but in my opinion (not a fact) the way it would work would be similar to survivors spawning right next to Ruin at the other side of the match, which happened pretty frequently. So no loss there, because at least you are not using a perk so as a killer, even if they circumvent the warmup you didnt lost a perk because of it.
Thats one of the main reasons I think its interesting: because its not OP for killer and it cant hurt killers, only help them most of the time. No feature, same as endgame collapse, has no problems. Endgame collapse was a good addition to the game, but its still not perfect for sure, same would be if there was a warmup in my POV.
As for totems, developers need to rework hexes and totems altogether for them to actually work on red ranks or against experienced survivors, otherwise they are null perks 99% of the time. The only hex perks that actually worked in the game were Ruin and NOED. Ruin since even 10s Ruin would give you 10s to cross the map and NOED because it forces them to do a secondary objective. What's their solution? Just ruin nerf and make it an endgame perk with almost no effect.
Many solutions were given to rework totems that would make them much better. Unless they try something hex perks are meme perks that only work against potatoes. For instance, they could make hex perks being only active when you select a totem, or make totems not appear (or exist) right next to generators (which is just handholding).
Another idea I suggested in the past as well is to make Thrilling of the Hunt a passive perk, which would make hex builds instantly more accessive independant of totem hiding. If a totem is right on their faces, like most are, at least you dont have to spend another perk just to know they are doing your totem. In this suggestion the notification would only work for hexes not dulls and the slow down would be diminished, but still exist, since you need time to protect totems otherwise they are memes.
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Scottjunds idea would give some slowdown but not enough to make any real difference. At the minute the game is unbalanced against good survivors, which his idea wouldn't solve. Yea it would be similar to old ruin where survivors could spawn on the totem and the perk was gone immediately, but that was why people wanted totems fixed. It wouldn't cause any problems but wouldn't fix any either.
The problem with creating rules for totem spawns is that smart survivors will be able to know roughly where they spawn. If I knew they didn't spawn next to generators it would rule out a lot of hiding spots. They should be more hidden and should be able to hide near the corners of the map like swamp maps.
I think basekit thrill would be kind of cool but with killers who can teleport to totems to guard them like hag or nurse it can be annoying. I think other than Devour or Lullaby there isn't really much point in guarding totems.
That's why I tried to suggest a perk idea where it would be a lot more reliable, not easily abused and wouldn't be op. It would help separate the bad killers who rely on noed to the ones who want that early game slowdown. I haven't heard anything that tells me this perk wouldn't help the game in some way.
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Any perk idea is good for me. Another option to the game. The problem is using another hex perk since, as yourself recognize, totems dont work very well in this game. No problemo having another hex perk, I just have the opinion hex perks aren't great, but it could help as well.
So, I have nothing against adding other hex perks, I just think hexes need to be buffed and reworked.
As for warmup not solving the problem it sure won't as I recognized before, but it still doesnt hurt killers and can only benefit them, as such, it is a small step towards recognizing how fast the game is going.
As for spawning right next to generators, the problem with that is because you don't even have to try and figure where the totem is. Lets say you just spawned into the game, you move to a generator at the edge of the map, (1) 1/4 chance killer wont reach you before you end that generator; (2) you end and just move 3 cm and cleanse a totem; (3) if that totem was hex, you just entered the game and found a way to nerf the killer in 3s.
The way I see it, the only thing that would be acceptable in that totem placement would be if the killer knew you were working on his hex for a simple reason: Risk vs reward. If you know the killer is out to get you there is a risk and the reward for hex totems is nothing short of 1k points and it could even be more if Thrilling was base.
As for Hag, almost no one plays Hag and SHE IS by nature the ONE killer that has all her perks as HEXES, so it would make a lot of sense for her to be the best hex killer in the game. I dont see how this would be bad. It would actually make her much more used in the game. I have to disagree tremedously with your statement on her. Also, once you know it is a Hag, it is hardly a very difficult task to counter her on totems, just dont run at them (or simply run at them and hide, making her lose a lot of time setting her trap at the other side of the map, simple).
As for other killer like Nurse, Spirit or Billy they are fast, but I highly doubt an hex build would be the end of the world. Thrilling do exist right now and the same perks like devour do exist right now and you won't see them using it 99% of the time, because they dont need it and because its not OP. So a base thrilling would not be OP either, but that would only be possible to analyse properly with test, of course.
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Less people playing the hag the better for me lol I find her annoying to face and to play as.
Totems need buffed in general on all the maps. I just cringe every time I see the open totems spots on disturbed ward. Thrill would be nice to help stop people cleansing totems but I don't think there are really any good hex totems to help protect atm. Ruin doesn't really do much and I wouldn't bring it as killer. Devour and Lullaby are good but with how quick gens go there isn't much point since you may not get any hooks.
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