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Which one's the real problem, gen speeds or killers being too weak ?
I wonder... Lately there's been a lot of debate on how to make killers' life a bit easier (Cuz I think we can all agree that there is a problem, that killers have been in a pinch for quite some time now), everyone's ranting about how gens need to be slowed down and Im not necessarily disagreeing with those opinions, but I'd like to look at the issue from a different perspective. Im a killer main (I do play quite a bit of survivor too though. I just play DBD a lot, basically :D) who doesn't really "main" any particular killer, I play literally every one (I do obviously skew towards certain ones, but not to an extent where I can be called an Oni or Trapper main.) and from my experience, the matches are extremely polarizing. Sometimes I get crushed despite clearly seeing that the survivors are trash, sometimes I get crushed because the survivors are better, sometimes I crush people due to outplays or cuz I wanted to play Spirit or Nurse (I won't focus on the killer winning in this topic, cuz that's not what my post is about...Duh) and other times I get a thrilling and even match. Those are the matches I play dbd for, but they're not happening nearly often enough. It's obviously because games end too fast that killers get so many unpleasant experiences, but do they actually end too fast because the gens are busted ? I have a fine time whenever I play as Billy, Oni or Ghostface (I believe these killers should be used as a standard when balancing killers, they're strong and fearfull, yet have weaknesses.) and even when I play as someone moderately weaker like Doctor or Demogorgon, I rarely feel like I couldn't have done anything to win, I only really feel crushed whenever I play as someone like Clown or Bubba (But holy heck do I feel crushed.). Due to all that I feel like the issue lies in the killers, and how wildly their power varies. Playing Spirit, Doctor and Clown all feel like completely different games, with really only one of them being balanced.
Doctor makes a great example of how decent killers can eliminate the Gen problem (atleast partially, a lot is up to the players, where I still feel like the killer has to be better on average than the survivors to regularly win.). Doctor was trash, there is no denying, but look ! They buffed him and now he's pretty decent, he's nowhere near the top, but nowhere near the bottom either, and I suddenly find myself struggling with gens less when playing as him.
My conclusion is simple. It's killers who should be buffed, not survivors who should be nerfed, not only because holding M1 on a gen even longer would be boring, but also because strong killers are way more fun to play against !
I don't feel good because I won against CLOWN, I feel agitated. Not only was my victory not earned, I also wasted 10 minutes of queue time for a game that brought me almost no excitement (which is a whole different problem lol).
On the other hand, playing a tough game and barely escaping against a Billy makes me feel good about myself, it also indirectly makes queue times less aggravating, cuz a bit of a cool off after such a match is welcome.
Unfortunately, there are multiple killers who need buffs. Clown, Bubba, Legion, Trapper, Wraith and Pig all need improvements to be fun both to play as and to play against, that's a lot of work, but BHVR has already shown that it's not impossible, Hag, Doctor, Freddy used to all be awfull, but are now decent killers, it just requires time and dedication on actually improving the game over adding more paid DLC on their side.
What do you guys think ? Let's get a nice discussion going to give the devs some much needed guidance in the tough spot they've found themselves in !
Comments
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They're the same thing.
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Gen speeds. No one honestly wants to wait in matchmaking then get into a match that lasts 5 minutes or less.
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Gen speeds. A lot of killers would actually be decent if gen speeds were more balanced.
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I think the honest answer is both.
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Honestly, probably neither. When killers can consistently stay in chases, and aren't messed up by excessive safe pallets/vaults, the games go pretty decently. The real issue is probably just map sizes and an overabundance of ways for survivors to deal with anything a killer can do without any genuine risk.
If survivors can finish a gen before the killer can cross the map, that's an issue.
If survivors can unhook someone right in front of the killer without any risk, that's an issue.
If killers are required to engage in chases perpetually and without mistakes to have a chance, that's an issue.
There's a lot that could be done to mitigate or fix the issues with this game. I believe that the two things I listed are the biggest problems with balance at the moment, though.
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Neither, maybe the lack of an early game slowdown mechanics is what hurts killers the most.
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After my opinion need several killers buffs and they need to make them fun to play.
A survivor is maybe upset to face a certain killer, but he will face in the next match probably a other killer.
The killermain is still stuck with his fav. killer in the next match. That's something bhvr should not forget imo.
With gen times should ->slightly<- something be done. But really slightly.
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MAPS
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Yes
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Its simple, make killers a.little better, with a little fix to gen speeds, small tweaks to fix both will gi further than massive buffs or game wide gen changes, heck maybe killers should move a little faster, some of the low mobility killers getting an extra 1-2% MS with maybe a slight mobility ability, give killers a touch of control in the chases, more than (respect pallet or tank hit, break off chase or keep chasing) mind-gaming is cool but as it stands killers can be infinitely looped or stun locked while they watch a survivor sprint off into the distance. These small hits can be literal game changers. Its all fine and dandy to say "git gud" but low ranks are where this can be felt some of the most. We are already seeing new players have bad experiences because killer is so demanding *IN COMPARISON TO SURVIVOR* again, not saying (OMG KILLER SO HURD) just in comparison to playing survivor. Sorry for going off topic.
TL;DR Tweak a little bit of everything instead of gutting any one problem and it will be healthier
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Trick question. Its the maps. Huge maps exaggerate killer strength and gen speeds, small maps do the same but in reverse.
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Honestly, It's maps and inexperienced players.
Gone are the days where people would sink 300+ hours into one killer and be exceptionally good with them, people put 30+ hours across 18 killers and get sad they don't 4K every game, then get mad at survivors playing well (Hint, survivors all do the same thing, it makes sense for them to be better at survivor than what a killer would be across 18 killers).
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It's a mix of quite a few things with varying degrees of influence.
- The biggest factor is map design. Many maps are just way too large and need to be shrunk down. Then there's quite a few loop tiles that are just entirely too strong. Lastly is the tile generation. Meaning when you get strong tile, connected to strong tile, connected to strong tile. The stronger tiles need to be better spread and not chained together.
- Even though it's not the main issue, I do think gens might be slightly too fast. This is even further exacerbated by how busted toolboxes are. Now we throw some gen speed perks on top of that and you can see how it gets ridiculous.
- Finally the more controversial topic, second chance perks. They are entirely out of control imo. The only way the killer can try to slow these gens down is with pressure, and all these second chance perks are anti-pressure. They reset the pressure you create. They need to exist for the sake of camping/tunneling etc but they are abused for far more than that, ask nothing skillful of the survivor, have no cost, are quite literally game swinging with even 1 but it's usually x2-4 per game for each and are some of the few perks that have an extremely strong effect even if they don't activate at all. This is because everyone runs them so much that the killer has too play every single game assuming they are being ran and play around them, aka "playing fair". Playing completely "fair" against good survivors will lose you the game. So even if they don't activate at all they are still winning you the game just by the possibility you are running them. This leaves the killer in a lose/lose scenario.
I think 1 and 3 are the primary issues. I wouldn't focus on 2 until we see how the others work out.
If problem 1 was fixed extremely well the other things may not be as much of an issue, but the problem is that will take years at the rate we are going and that's if not a single other bad map gets released in that entire time.
EDIT: I should've added this before, but there are a lot of really weak killers that need varying degrees of buffs as well.
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It’s a chicken/egg scenario tbh. And both need to be addressed. Gens are too fast and killers are too weak. Killers are not afforded the same luxury as survivors who have the freedom to experiment with perks - killers MUST use half their builds for slowdown if they want a serious chance. That alone inherently puts killers in a weak position.
Map design is also a huge factor - they’re much too big with too many strong obstacles to manage at 115% speed, 110% is even harder.
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I say the randomness of the game is to blame, though I'd say killers being too weak or strong is more of an issue than Gen speed. You've got some killers that can quickly steamroll survivors if they are not careful. Billy (especially on Dedicated Servers) Spirit, Nurse, Freddy etc. They don't really need any help even with current gen speeds.
But lower tiered killers like The Clown, Legion, Trapper etc. They take too much time to traverse the map, and down survivors to even set up pressure, and to stop gen rushing.
So some killers are too weak, some are fine/strong. But there are obviously other stuff as well like map sizes and design etc.
Then there is the killers who bust out two iridescent add-ons/There strongest add-ons, An Ebony Mori, and play as toxic as possible and slaughter survivors before they can hope to get gens finished.
Alternatively you can have the survivors who bring in crazy tool boxes, and Prove thyselves and before you can down someone the gens are pretty much finished. Randomness makes DBD hard to balance for imo.
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I dislike when killers complain about everything. Killers are not weak at all. Yes, Gen speed is now crazy and became a problem with the ruin nerf to which I did not agree at all in the first place (and Im a survivor main) I do think tool boxes need a nerf for sure. I think if ruin isnt brought back the way it used to be, then toolboxes need a nerf.
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Both, but it's maps that are the biggest issue. If you tone the size down, and eliminate infinite, M1 killers would be in a better place. Gen speeds would also be increased, simply because the killer can more effectively patrol the gens. That's not to say other matters would need to be addressed, but it's the largest issue.
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I've been playing this game since launch and have talked with many others with the same amount of experience as me (survivor mains too), we all seem to agree on the same 3 causes of this problem.
- Map Design: Certain maps are WAAAY too big or too powerful that they must be reworked in order to achieve balance, examples of these would be either Red Forest map, or Haddonfield in terms of balance.
- Beginning of the game: While generator times themselves don't need to be reduced, something needs to be done about the start of the game, the first couple gens can go by way too quickly and killers that require setup such as the Hag or Trapper simply don't have the time to do so. The best way to fix this issue would be something similar to ScottJund's game startup idea which would decrease gen speeds until the first chase is initiated.
- Killer Balance: Most killers are just too weak, Clown, Cannibal, Legion, and Trapper are a few who especially need to be looked into
The unfortunate thing is that addressing just one of these problems most likely won't fix the issue, and in my opinion at least two of these need to be addressed if not all three.
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Yeah I 100% agree, while the 1st and the 3rd issues you listed seem to atleast somewhat be on the devs radar (since the map and killer reworks are happening, even if at an excruciatingly slow rate, whether or not they're actually as impactfull as they should be is a whole different topic), the 2nd one simply isn't. The devs have recently even stated that "it's expected for 2/3 gens to pop after a short while", in what world that logic is okay though I do not comprehend.
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Why killers does badly in DBD
1) It's the player, it's always the player.
mitigating factors can include,
2) competence of each side.
3) SWF or randoms is a big factor.
4) although, maps in themselves aren't an issue, it's the unfavorable tiles and random generating ie back to back pallets and loops, gens being spread out too far etc that can be problematic.
5) the perks, add-ons, items being used in game by either side.
I am going to completely disagree with the Dr being trash before his buff. But, his buff does prove that BHVR can make improvements to killers that actually work.
Billy, Freddy, Spirit and (well practiced) nurses are too strong compared to the rest of the killer characters. What's fascinating is how they each do it differently too. The other characters all need massive improvements to their killer power to make them even close to the aforementioned killers. I will agree that hag is too a top class killer, if a little add on reliant, and needs to be the bottom standard when looking to buff killers. I think they could make a global killer improvement, of killers retaining bloodlust after pallet breaks. Not sure it throws the game to far out of whack.
I am not convinced gen rushing is the thing all the sheep come here to bleat about. If your games are consistently ending in under 5 minutes, then you just plain suck at being killer, so either git gud or quit playing.
It's completely pointless to blame possible gen speeds, when I have had games last over 30 minutes and usually for me, games last around the 12-15 minute mark.
I think one of the glaringly obvious problems, which you almost said yourself, is how the game hangs on a knife edge between who wins and losses. It's literally about who can capitalise on the others mistakes, be it looping wrong, mind gaming, chasing too long or missed skill checks, more often than not, it's the small errors that can make all the difference.
In all, I do think the approach needs to be improving the other killers powers, rather than nerfing gen speeds. I guess it will be good to see what they do to toolboxes, see what that does, if anything.
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I would say it's not so much the gen speeds, but other things surrounding causing the gen speeds to be problematic.
The fact that if they just sit on gens and only focus on generator efficiency- there is nothing you can do unless they make a mistake. Some of the most experienced killer mains in the game have all admitted this.
Problem is matchmaker is so busted that anytime you win or lose as killer or survivor, it likely wasn't fair so you can't use 80% of your games to determine if something is unbalanced or not because it was unfair in it's nature to start with.
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gen speeds are hilarious, maps are hilarious
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Gen speeds, Maps size, but some killers (like Clown) are too weak
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I had a 3 gen situation as clown, and it was hilarious because there was NOTHING I could do.
I could literally see all 3 gens at the same time and there was no way to do anything with it.
Like if I went for anyone on a gen they would run straight line away from the gens, so even if I chased them, and managed to go through whatever loop they used, hit them twice, and hook them or even if I just slugged them and went back, or even if I just scared them off and hit them and came RIGHT back, 1 gen would be half done, another like 30% done.
So no matter what if I managed to get one hook the game was going to be over, and my only recourse would be to camp the hook on whatever hook I do get- but lets be real against any survivors with a brain that just doesn't do anything, they will take hits for each other, borrowed time, whatever they have to do and they will all get out at that point.
The game is literally over before it's even over basically.
You can play games now and by the time you down and hook one survivor, even if you need it as efficiently as possible 2 gens pop. The devs say that is expected of it- well if that is expected why is that phase of the game even a thing? They are just sitting there holding M1 just so we can try and get one hook? How is that good design? Out of the thousands of interesting ideas to full that time with gameplay just holding M1 was the best idea?
When you actually break these things down to the basics, if you show these things to someone who has not grown accustomed to the game just being lame like that, they will laugh at it for what it really is.
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The problem with this game is that the devs literally don't know what they want to do with it. They've caught lightning in a bottle, but don't have the skill or experience to make it good, so they listen to their largest customer base and throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks. There's not even an established win condition or an established average time for a match. They just react to data rather than have a vision for the game. Lets nerf ruin because survivors don't like it....oh crap gens are flying, lets nerf toolboxes and see if that helps.
If they want games to last for 4-8 minutes, then they need game changing killer buffs. Easiest one would be raising the killer move speed by at least 5%. That or spawn two pallets per generator, making 14 total for every map.
If they want games to last for 10-15 minutes, then the generator times need to be increased, or a second, mandatory objective needs to be added.
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I don't think the majority of killers cares about 4k's. For me even a 2k or 3k is a draw/win depending on the game. If you have 3 gens poped by the end of the first hook, then a 2k is a win in most cases. And you can pop a gen in 30-40 secs...so it's kinda frequent.
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The devs have said before that they deem Hillbilly as the centre of balance. The community puts him within the top 5/top 3 for power.
All killers outside of the "top 5" need buffs to rival these killers before we even consider changing something as core to the game as generator times.
There are also two very important things to talk about too: Killers have an entirely different game to play and killers are also aiming for a 4k, when the devs say that a 2/2 is the centre of balance.
While I cannot condemn a killer for aiming for the 4k, there are limits to my generosity, and I play my fair share of killer. There are certain tactics that inflate statistics, as well as ruin the game for others. Killers will not receive the necessary buffs while people are actively going out of their way to inflate these statistics.
As for the gameplay, we have a first-person hunting game compared to a third-person atmospheric survival-horror. We cannot compare a killer hunting a survivor to a survivor working on a generator as a series of numbers. It's like comparing Call of Duty: Yet Another One to Alien: Isolation.
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Maps sizes
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