Otz's new video shows what's wrong with the game
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This guy gets it. A huge difference in skill, demonstrated in the beginning of the game, and yet they still finish all the gens.
I'm also disturbed by the Devs response on this forum, saying "but he got the 4k," because it shows the point wasn't understood:
***The playing experience of killer is important too and these perks feel very frustrating as Otz demonstrated.***
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As you said though, those survivors were clearly not at Otz's skill level. Yes, the game would have been over waaay earlier. But you also gotta think about it. Finishing a game in less than 5 minutes is beneficial to neither side. It's all safety pips. You can argue about them being so bad but the truth of the matter is that it was a really good game. 31k and 4k. Which was only possible because said perks were used.
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Otz himself admitted that while it was frustrating, he made ~Several~ mistakes.
As you say, killers that will complain about second chance perks are not as good as Otz or Tru3, but that is exactly why they will get placed in a lower skill level, just a truth pill hard to swallow.
Handholding perks? I guess? If Slugging becomes the norm why should I not use Unbreakable? It's not necessarily hand holding me for being "bad at the game". It's to counteract a legitimate Killer strat that could end the game early. Adrenaline isn't ahandholding perk at all, I hardly get this proccd while mid chase and injured, so it usually becomes either a waste of a perk or I just dont live to see it being used. Dead Hard is easily countered + dedicated server pepega
Making a comeback without hand holding perks would mean Killers would have to stop using perks like Ruin (at its prime) , NOED, Blood Warden, Haunted Grounds, BBQ, Nurse's calling, etc.
This actually would hurt killers more if you look at it lol
Last note, of course Otz had to sweat hard af. He had to match having a questionable perk build on the lowest tier killer with the worst addons. What the video really shows is how much Bubba needs a rework.
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I see the point being made here and I agree, however it'd be better if the example wasn't someone 4k'ing with the shittiest imaginable combination of things in the entire game
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I do see the problem, but this video doesn't address it all. Even the best killer on the planet should struggle a little using the worst perks, the worst killer, and the worst addons all in the same game.
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K few things.
1: I never said it wasn't ok, because I agree that slugging, being tunneled and camped are boring and just waste everyones time, but that also falls into fixing the game. Killers wouldn't need too slug, camp, and tunnel if killers had more options in a match, because the only objective a survivor has is gens, exit gates, and maybe totems killers have too create pressure. ATM without more time in a match killers really don't have a choice.
2: It is incredibly ignorant too say that the only problem are problems that effect survivors. Stop being closed mined on issues with the game, because killers have just as many issues as survivors. For every game that has a tunneler, killers have too deal with 4 DS. Every game with a key that lets survivors escape for free, a killer brings a mori and gets kills for free. It's not an open and shut case.
3: Calm down a little, you don't need too be so aggressive, I'm open for talking lol.
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I think the one here he played Hillbilly video that was posted here showed way better how screwed up the game is compared to this where he puts himself at a huge disadvantage.
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nice attempt 2/10
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This video shows me 2 things
- Any killer can be good when played correctly
- Survivors have too many "second chance" perkS
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Soooo.... what about the new video with the spirit?
Is the spirit a weak killer now?
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ah yes this literal tournament squad is another great example. I also watched the game and he made SEVERAL mistakes.
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The simple fact they lost to him with all these second chance perks shows how utterly overpowered they are when combined together. This team that he curb stomped was very VERY obviously way worse at the game than Otz, he was so far above and beyond them in terms of skill it is just silly, yet they came that close to winning, due to their perk choice. Sure he as using a meme add on and meme perks but that isn't the point, most killer perks dont effect you having 3 people already downed or hooked with the 4th one in a chase injured. No matter what perks/add ons he used, if they didn't have all these second chance perks the game was well over in just a few minutes, and that is the problem the OP is talking about. These perks allowed a team that had no business winning vs Otz to nearly escape which is what the issue with this video is.
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Killers have next to none?
Iron Maiden, Make Your Choice, NOED, Devour Hope, Rancor, all perks that grant killers an instant down, making quite some survivor perks entirely useless. Let alone that Bubba, even though having his weaknesses, isnt that weak(before you jump on that: yes, he does need changing, but his strong suit needs to be weaker while his weak suits need to be stronger). Having 5 swoops of instadown potential while gaining movement speed and being able to turn 360 degrees is very strong in a chase. Bubba is far from being the worst killer in the game. Besides, deciding to slug 4 people and forgetting about unbreakable is not a tiny mistake. It's a massive mistake. Slugging is extremely powerful with only 1 real early game counter, ignoring the only early game counter to a single move is a massive mistake. I mean, lets say you have a massive castle, and ignore Big Bertha being build right outside your door. Would you really call it a tiny mistake if Big Bertha blows a massive hole in your wall allowing the castle to be taken over? No, thats a huge ass mistake.
Now to other "second" chance perks:
Decisive Strike, not really a second chance, as wiggling pretty much isnt considered a chance. Remember, Wiggling is a mechanic that exists and supposedly should be able to free a survivor while being annoying to the killer. Yet what do we see? Barely any effect given to the killer, regardless of how fast you wiggle, and practically never being able to free yourself. Decisive Strike is used due to the uselessness of Wiggling in the first place. Not really a second chance.
Borrowed Time, again, not really a second chance, as you dont have a choice when you're being unhooked in the first place. You could have an ######### survivor that unhooks you just to recieve the points and then just letting you die. You do not have a chance in the first place. Not even including the fact that quite a lot of killers face camp, thus making the only possible chance you can get to be unhooked is someone else using Borrowed Time. Not really a second chance perk.
Adrenaline+Hope and NOED are literally perks that are bound to each other. They all only work with the final gen being done and they all grant quite a powerful boost to the players. Most players even end up wasting Adrenaline, only recieving the speedboost during a time they might not want the speedboost, leaving them exhausted when they might not want to be exhausted. It literally only works when you're injured and being chased by a killer, or have been slugged(as this is the only real counter to slugging so far, especially with instaheals removed). And its odd how people think Adrenaline is a second chance perk, when Hope isnt, even though the movement speed Hope ends up giving, is far more significant than the speedboost that adrenaline gives. Especially since Hope doesnt give you exhaustion. So really, Adrenaline only works in a very specific situation.
Then other perks that also are not considered "second chance" perks, even though they do something very similar:
Second Wind, Mettle of Man, Any Means Neccesary, Inner Strength, Flip Flop, Deliverance, No Mither(really, why is unbreakable considered second chance when No Mither isnt. Is it because you can see No Mither and actually pick them up instead of leaving them slugged on the ground?), Self Care.
It's almost if those perks dont matter as much because there is a killer perk or in-game mechanic that counters them.
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Op is attempting to point out that the survivors played like trash, and still completed all generators.
As usual this goes over every ones head and they just focus on the 4k that he got against terrible opponents.... who still did all 5 gens... even tho they were terrible... and on coms, (so basically cheating)
Big whoosh.
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Still waiting to kjow how he got stomped with NOED spirit in the new video... probably he played really bad and made an absurd number of errors... right?
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Unbreakable is love. Unbreakable is life.
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I do understand what people say about certain perks helping out people when they make a mistake, but it's not always the case. I've been downed plenty of times from hits that clearly did not connect, like, AT ALL. So how was that my mistake? The hit boxes sometimes being highly inaccurate isn't my fault, it's the games. So if I get slugged during one of those instances and pick myself up, I don't feel like I've been carried by a perk. I've simply been given the chance to avoid a hook that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Not everything is black and white in this game. Downs/hooks don't automatically mean "git gud" as some people seem to think.
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What about all the time a swing should hit but id does not, were is the help for the killer in that case?
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Well, someone made a investment that he would be slugged and it paid out. He had the same chance of being not slugged but he risked a perk slot for insurance and I think it is fair.
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Well, that's a question for the Devs, not me.
I play both sides and can see issues from both. I've always said that playing killer is far more stressful, which shouldn't be the case. Comparing this to a similar game like Friday the 13th, where playing as Jason is an absolute breeze. It's ridiculous. I just try to look at things objectively, because like I said, it's not always black and white. The game can screw over killers AND survivors.
I just don't think people should be called bad players for using perks like DS and Unbreakable and I don't think players should be called bad for slugging, camping, tunneling and using NOED. There's a reason people are playing the way they are and it's because sometimes it feels like the only way. The current state of the game is a mess and there's no debate about that. It's so different from when I first started playing two years ago and it's definitely changed for the worse.
I love getting new content, but I'd rather the Devs just focus on actually trying to balance the game. I love playing survivor, but it's far too easy to escape. It needs to be more difficult and the killers actually need to feel like a threat.
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In b4 "the balance team is separate from the design and marketing team"
The part they don't mention is how many "balance devs there are compared to cosmetic makers.
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why are half the people in this thread ignoring the speed limiter leatherface with basically no perkss
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Because it doesn't help proving their point.
Honestly the video is a bad example. Otz is playing suboptimal, doing risky plays (slugging), a couple mistakes and the survs are bad as well. In the end he managed to 4k while they managed to did gens. Yeah, it obvious that Otz is the better player and it pays off for him in the end.
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That's not what happened? What?
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I imagine it has something to do with the fact that the bubba carried distressing and an ash got hit twice by the same chainsaw. I don't understand why the other half defends potato survivors that should have lost the game ages ago due to ######### up after ######### up but they can still recover from it and even finish all gens.
Are you saying survivors should not lose a game no matter how bad they ######### up unless the killer brings only meta?
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Ash decided for stealth instead of running. A risky unreliable play, which he performed badly, yes. But the second speed limiter hit is quite understandable, because he probably expected to go down after the first hit. That mistake was punished with a quick first hook. But doesn't automaticly mean that he should 4k.
His three people slugging situation wasn't caused by Ash's mistakes. It was because they rushed too fast for the hook and failed a palett safe, attempted from the wrong side. Problem was, like said, that he was a little bit too greedy and kept people slugged for too long and didn't pay intention on a potential unbreakable, missed seeing Nancy and later, when he had to choose between picking up Dwight or Ash for the second time he choose the one who was recently unhooked instead of the Ash who definitively shouldn't had DS anymore etc. But tbh. Dwight's DS was kinda unlucky.
After that situations the survivors played less risky didn't rush and tried to do their best to spread out doing gens etc. And at that situation Otz was playing a crippled version of an already weak killer and was understandably salty. He even risked another DS when he picked up Ash for the death hook etc. At that point it was understandable they managed to fire all gens after even two died. So he even managed to 4k at the end.
It's really not a good example for calling out second chance perks, because they all did, what they should actually do here. And the survivors weren't complete potatatoes, like you claim throughout the whole match.
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Can we get an example of an AVERAGE match?
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So the only thing this seems to prove is that you can bring a killer who everyone claims is trash, give them a meme add on to make their power weaker, use random off meta perks and still 4k without a single door being opened.
Is that what you were trying to prove?
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Okay, lets be real here:
Otz uses a killer who has decent weaknesses and decent strengths(he is not the most balanced killer, but having faced all killers quite equally, Bubba is one of the few that I think does not deserve the instadown as a base ability)
Then Otz uses the worst addons and perks that are practically survivor perks, except for a few specific builds(doctor with distressing is quite useful, for example).
Then a 4 man SWF with communication, using the strongest survivor perks, but their skill level is obviously lower than Otz.
How do people think this is an issue? Otz practically gave survivors 8 perks, and gave them second chances by running speed limiter himself. He literally handicapped himself negatively as much as possible(I mean, using survivor friendly perks is worse than using no perks) and STILL won, and the more you negatively handicap yourself, the larger the consequences of your mistakes are, losing bloodlust with good perks isnt really a big of an issue, but losing bloodlust with that amount of handicap could snowball very hard.
These survivors were running multiple perks that are top tier perks, which practically gives them the largest possible positive handicap, let alone the additional positive handicap they gained from Otz' perks and addons, basically, any mistake they could make was reduced because of that. Yet a terrible team, with all those positives, STILL lost from a skilled killer.
I mean, yeah, if Otz were to run this build against a top tier survivor team, then yeah, he would have gotten 0K. Personally, this match shows me that the game is a lot more balanced than people think it is. A lot of killer mains proclaim Bubba to be the weakest(I disagree heavily on that, he isnt the strongest for a whole team, but he is one of the strongest if you look for 1v1 plays). So here we have the weakest, of the weakest killer builds, according to killer mains, vs a team using the strongest of the strongest. And the killer still won. No matter the skill of the team, if they were the absolute worst team of survivors and the perks actually were as strong as killers proclaim them to be, Otz wouldnt have had a 4k.
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ok? and I've seen people that literally stare at you and beat you on the hook then talk crap after the game so I'm not sure what point your trying to make about what I said. Not everyone runs those perks and I'm one of those who don't.
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You have a problem I write a solution. That's it. Use it or not is your choice.
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I never said I had a problem and your solution isn't a solution to anything except telling people what perks to run and how to play by basically abusing killers.
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Imagine dodging the actual subject matter of the video THAT hard. OOF.
Typical BHVR at this point. Better at dodging than Neo himself.
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When I saw the title of this video, I was really expecting his tournament video where he loses as Spirit to be the featured video.
If you want to "prove" that second chance perks are a balance problem in this game, this video certainly isn't the answer. Pretty sure people have pointed out why though. Going by this video, survivors are severely underpowered in general because they need many second chance perks to even get 3 gens done.
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Now show a vid of otz being destroyed with the best killer and addons and watch the comments turn into "well he made 10 million mistakes so he should have lost, and the survivors were just better than him."
There is no winning this argument in these forums or against these devs.
Everyone has a different experience, some get potato survivors who are solo for 90% of their games and think everything is fine and that they are "skilled" while others get mostly swf who want to bully or depip the killer.
The game takes ping into consideration, so you will get matched with people closer to you. This means you won't get my survivors and i won't get yours.
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I hate these strawman arguments.
Dead By Daylight is not only a game of minutes but also a game of mistakes.
One small mistake, misread, or even wrong step can take you from the top to the very bottom. It requires both sides to be focused on the task at hand and to be aware of many different things at once. To me, that's where the fun lies.
But saying survivors have to many second chance perks because a Nancy managed to outplay him/ get very lucky is incredibly silly.
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That's right, 4k so often seems to be a problem
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Poor Bubba, he picked up the insta-downed right after being Rescued Dwight a little too early 😴. If he's not crying about this, it's about how unfair it is that someone is using the sole counter (Unbreakable) that only works once per Trial and only if The Killer slugs.
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According to devs an average/balanced game is 2 kills and 2 escapes. They haven't mentioned how many hooks should be average so I'm gonna assume 6. Additionally this means that all 5 gens were done in order to have 2 escapes (2 people escaping via hatch isn't average or common.) Also an average match depends from rank to rank so in Otz/red rank killers case an average match is 3k-4k. So a basic average match would be a trapper(most used killer) hooking 2 survivors 3 times each while 5 gens get done and the other 2 escaping via exit gate.
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