General Discussions
General Discussions
Why I feel my two key design for killers is the only way we can move forward
So everyone has their opinions on how to make the game better, in previous posts I have discussed mine, I call it the two key system..Basically I believe the best way to make this game better is to design killers with two key components, a tool for chasing, and a tool for applying pressure to survivors.
Now I came up with this philosophy While I was farming all the perks for my killers, I noticed that there were killers like pig and legion whom have pressure tools, they lack a decent chasing booster which condemn them to the lower end of the power gap despite having decent pressure. Then there are the better killers like hag, spirit,/ billy..pretty much every higher rank killer has both a pressure tool and a chase tool..
Then I began to realize that killers like newly reworked doc show that pressure tools dont have to be speed..take huntress..I consider her bottom of the upper class because of her map dependency..no what she lacks in msp pressure she uses hook pressure better than most due to her ability to get quick downs with proper plays..however I feel she could use a slight boost to her pressure tools. Bluntly put I dont think map reworks are the answer..new badham still has an abundance of sage loops that still cripple low pressure and even high pressure killers to a degree , plus even if they did work like everyone thinks it just limits the design of the maps themselves..however with this two key system it adds a further dynamic to the game for both survivors and killer, makes killer designs more deep and interesting , and makes it where both sides need to further use tactical gameplay to succeed..
Hope you found this insightful
Comments
-
So, your idea is to make it so every killer has chase pressure and gen pressure?
I find it to be that every killer can achieve both of these things well. They all have very different styles of play, and it just so happens that with these different styles of play, their unique tools and their unique application in matches allows them all to have both chase and gen pressure in effective ways. It's all about knowing what you intend on doing in the match and how you work with map and rng you get. Take Deathslinger for example, the newest killer to be released, he has very powerful chase pressure, he also has very good gen pressure too, all it takes is applying his unique style into the match effectively.
6 -
Deathslinger can pressure in a chase with his instant shot (and decent aim) but I fail to see his gen pressure.
He is 110% so traversing to gens is slower, his power is default 15m I believe? So its unlikely you will get a sneaky gen shot and even if you do get shot he is then stuck with 1 survivor for a few seconds as he reels them in allowing anyone else nearby to simply escape. I fail to see his gen pressure.
7 -
*Laughs in Clown gen pressure*
10 -
Death slinger has minimal pressure and I'd call call his chase iffy at best because it has almost no pallet play which is bad in itself
1 -
Poor clown
1 -
@MegaWaffle @immortalls96 Why do people think Gen pressure and Chase pressure are seperate? Yes they are classified and spoke of seperately to make it clearer to players which individual strength individual killer's have more of at a base level, but every killer's advanced level has so much going for them, not a single killer is pidgeon-holed into one aspect. You end a chase quickly, you redistribute pressure around with injuries and presence on the map, ie gens. DBD isn't designed for killers to be able to defend all generators every single match so losing gens isn't really reliable proof of any killer's strength; or lack thereof.
So, to respond to your doubts, Deathslinger has awesome chase pressure, this in turn allows him to redistribute pressure around the map as he sees fit. A 24m terror radius, a 15m Redeemer range, both combine to make approaching gens very scary. You made the point of having a survivor on the end of his chain making it so he loses potential to juggle efficiently, but you can break the chain at your own will. Adding, optimally playing, you'd most likely go for a hit first then Redeemer the runner later. Plus, juggling doesn't always involve having everyone injured. Sometimes having a healthy survivor out there helps you out. They're the one that most likely goes for the rescue, meaning pumping gens are usually either not being finished, or are being worked on by ballsy injured survivors - not a great idea vs a killer who can literally pull you away from objectives. Pressure's pressure, apply it as the match dictates. And also, he has very good pallet play, you can stop a survivor getting to one, and when they are looping it, you can pull them from an angle off the loop. Not to mention you can accept an injury/Deep Wound as a successful chase if it allows momentum to be gained.
0 -
@Kai6864 Don't start all that. Clown has very good pressure. It's just popular opinion to sheep that he's weak. I play Clown and have learned techniques and styles of play with him that makes him very scary to go against. Just because a killer requires a different mentality towards chase, doesn't mean they are weak. In comparison within tier lists, of course when you stack them all up with each other then obviously one killer will be lower down. It does not reflect their strength by comparison. I love Clown, he is very fun and I find him to be strong. All this talk of buffing him/reworking him is naive opinions of people who haven't learned his true play potential
0 -
I main clown dude. He doesn’t have gen pressure full stop. Excellent chase power but awful at defending gens (not including perks). It’s not that he’s weak it’s just that he has no defences- a pure glass cannon, much like Spirit but Spirit has mobility and minimal gen pressure with her power, she’s more like a ceramic cannon. At the start of the game, that’s 4 people on gens, maybe one could get done with the current state of toolboxes. Even if you chase people for let’s say optimally 10 seconds (completely unrealistic but go for it). You require about 90 seconds to kill 3 people. Meaning technically, you can double that (180s) which is the amount of progress made by everyone. That is more than enough time for all gens to pop. This is purely estimation of course as it discounts using any toolboxes, slowdown perks, gen speed perks, the time required for the killer to move and hook someone, the time for the survivors to get to gens, the skillchecks achieved, doubling up on gens, the time spent healing (a good team wouldn’t really need to do this however), unhooking, the time spent refilling bottles, the time spent actually finding the survivors as well as the time spent kicking pallets, gens and patrolling the area. Not even mentioning how a 10 second chase would be nearly impossible against a team of actually competent players. This time is enough for the survivors to complete all the gens for any killer just clown does it all much worse than other killers. Not saying you can’t 4K with 5 gems but you have no hope against a good team with a clown. Ps clown doesn’t have “true potential” his skill ceiling is so low I hit my head on it without even trying. He is a basic M1 killer with the ability to hinder people, effect their vision and force medium vaults. All you really have to learn is accuracy with the bottles but that can’t really be useful in a jungle gym or pallet gym when the pallet has been thrown. As stated above, it effects chase time which doesn’t stop gen progress.
2 -
When you lose a match you want to feel like you could have won but just got outplayed. When playing killer often times it doesn't feel like that. There are games where it honestly feels like it was impossible to win. When survivors are dedicated to gens and dont hurry hooks you can end chases in less than 10 seconds and still lose, especially when playing a killer who doesn't have the mobility to get on gens quickly.
1 -
@Kai6864 Well, Clown has more to him than just blurred vision and hinderance. He has audio manipulation and anti-routing too.
No killer truly has gen pressure in this period of dbd. They can throw their weight around and be a menace in areas, but ultimately, if survivors want gens done, they'll get done. That being said, Clown can hang with good teams, just like any killer can, the rush teams, however, who just want gens done, are never a reliable argument to fall back on.
As killer, how you spend your time is a determination of whether or not you win. If you can put all aspects of pressure onto the survivors: injuries, downs, chases, hooks, (slugging too, but I find this cheap and lazy so never would use this as an example of good play) then you'll be playing in a very efficient way and more often come out on top. Nothing cheap, just good pressure. Every killer can achieve this. So yeah, Clown isn't weak and he does have gen pressure potential. He has cabilities for every kind of pressure; just like every killer does. I play Clown fairly often, and love playing as him. I only really struggle with gen pressure when i'm having an off day, struggling with chases etc but this is all just experiences right? From my experience, and from my time learning Clown, and my knowledge to date, I feel Clown is the most underrated killer in DBD, and people calling for him being buffed have no idea how to unleash his devastating potential.
0 -
I meant gen pressure in a power sense. Every killer can obtain the evident gen pressure - though id call this more map pressure as the pressure is exerted on the entire team rather than the generators. I meant more of Freddy’s teleport and clock design, Demogorgon’s portals, Doctor’s static blast, Hag’s traps, Trapper’s traps (and disarming them), Huntress’ range, Deathslinger’s range, Billy’s mobility, Nurse’s mobility and unpredictability, Myers’ instadown tier 3, etc (we’re talking about competent killers here, not those who don’t know how to use said powers correctly.)They all give the incentive to get off the generators for fear of dying. With clown, even Wraith even, they are simply an M1 killer and as such you can probably find a pallet and lead them on a good enough chase if you see them coming. Not to mention, Clown has to hit you twice compared to other killers, has no range potential and no real mobility apart from the standard. Everyone has something going for them, clown just has a little less. At any decent tile, it’s just going to be dropped and moved onto the next. Waste time destroying resources, continuing the chase and the his god awful reload time (The only add on I feel like I need to play with is the stopper because that makes him semi-viable instead of taking the time which leads to the other survivor running to another loop.
2 -
@Kai6864 yeah, this is why I say there's no seperation between chase and gen pressure. Pressure is pressure as long as you use it well and do it right.
But all of that aside, these killers doing this, that and the other thing, that does not make Clown weak. What he has going for him is very fun, and very cool.
You can say drop pallets and run ruins Clowns day, but that ruins a lot of killers. If you come across those survivors, juggle them. If they all play like that, then they can have fun getting rid of every pallet really early. Never stick to drop and run survivors for long.
0 -
I’d just prefer it if he had some sort of other ability, many killers have dual abilities and most have single abilities that have multiple purposes. Clown however, can only be used in a chase or to start a chase whereas Plague can track, take away a whole health state, keep people injured all in one power (not even mentioning Corrupt Purge). Billy has mobility, instadown and destruction. Trapper can immobilise and down survivors with his traps and their presence on the map makes certain loops dubious. Even Wraith has mobility, stealth and his power helps on shorter loops. Leatherface has an instadown and his can be used for destruction and multi-downs. Do you see the pattern here? Clown doesn’t have this sort of power. Clown needs to track the most - his chases are key to him winning. If he can’t track them, he literally won’t get a kill. Maybe being able to trap generators and lockers to create a notification and aura reading? Throwing out ideas here. Without proper tracking or instadowns, he can’t really snowball that well either. Slugging is his own option for pressure aside from hooking. If he has to slug, give him a tool do to it better, they gave Oni one so they can’t be all that against slugging.
0 -
I don't think every killer needs to have both, they need at least one extremely powerful "tool", just like huntress
0 -
So far it's not working
0 -
I wouldnt expect much agreement though as results have shown hes painfully mediocre
0 -
what?
0 -
The weakest killers consistantly lack either a good chase power or gen pressure tool of some sort..which is why killers will never he in a good state unless they change the killer base line..this is my culmination of many hours playing and seeing where all the weaker killers fall short
0 -
Agree, my idea of improving legion was aswell to add a new ability to down survivors. Not all Killers need that like Huntress, Spirit or Billy because their powers are both in one ability. But Killers like clown, legion or leatherface for example really need something for map or gen pressure.
0 -
If the lower does two on one that's fine by me..as long as they have the ability to make plays
0 -
What results? Lol if people think Clown is a bad as they say he is, then it's a reflection of those players. From personal experience, Clown is not a bad killer. Forget tier lists - tier lists don't prove anything, they are comparisons from one killer to the next, and are all opinions and subjective. Me personally, can play Clown without slowdowns and have insanely fun, interactive, hard fought matches with the good type of survivor players. Whereas the Clowns i'm vsing and seeing on streams play ultra sweat, ultra slowdown, ultra obnoxious, without any real knowledge just what to do with Clown. They waste bottles - forcing them to reload in chase; they don't use his gas clouds efficiently; they don't use Clown's unique mindgame capability; they chase for too long; they don't throw their weight around (no pun intended). And call Clown bad/weak as a result - it's not a valid point in my eyes; playing a killer badly and not knowing their true strength does not make them right in their opinion, just because streamers and the masses say so. It's silly. I really hope people see this and actually learn to see Clown's potential in this game as an intimidating killer
0 -
I'll believe what numbers and results can quantify..and they point clown downwards sadly..the buff to mid vaults kind of sealed his fate
0 -
I see people talking about Clown so I’ll give me opinion using him as an example.
Clown EXCELS at eating through pallets and/or getting hits. That is his chase AND map/gen pressure tool. In order to be good with any killer, you have to understand what their strengths are and focus on maximizing those strengths.
Since Clown can eat pallets, perks like Brutal Strength and Spirit Fury can work great. Make sure to not commit too much time on survivors that waste your time without getting hooks. You can get those guys later once there are less pallets on the map.
His weakness is not having a gen pressuring power. Hillbilly has high mobility so he can pressure any gen at any time. Clown is chase-focused so try to keep survivors in chases at all times. Run Whispers, Discordance, any tracking perks that help you stay in chases. Use PERKS to enhance your power and potential.
0 -
@immortalls96 What numbers and what results are you on about?
0 -
Well first off his stats , secondly when you look at what his ability is capable of based off the values and limitations of it, you quickly realize a killer that is only good at forcing pallet drops will have pitiful pressure and hes not even that good for a chase oriented killer which is quite disheartening
0 -
How can clown pressure gens, what perks do you usually use and what rank are you if you don't mind me asking?
0 -
@CornHub I get to Rank 1 every month - have done since the 2nd month of getting this game, back in June 2017. My current Clown build is: BBQ, Shadowborn, Surge, Discordance. But typically I run BBQ, Knockout, Ruin, Fire-Up.
Clown can pressure gens by bullying chases and forcing his pressure around. You all seem to acknowledge Clown's chase strength, so you simply apply that with rotation strategy - having anti-routing, areas that have audio-mindgame potential spotted and worked out as/before chased initiate. You then gain injuries, and use map knowledge and what rng you have to determine how long you stick to people in what areas (obvious and common high level knowledge, but very invaluable with Clown). For example, I make sure to bull the chases that are in strong areas such as a large T-junction pallet (typically seen on Macmillan and Haddonfield) leading into a jungle gym; in order to get that drop, the break and abandon the chase. It widdles down time wasting loops early and makes rotation easier. I do this often in Clown matches and it always reaps good rewards. Commiting once I have people pushed off objectives and into areas where bottles grant guarenteed hits. So toss one into a strong route to deter, and force them to make on the fly decisions; if they mess up a route, and the survivor has no back-up route, they're dead. This is where having forced abusable pallets down early and broken, the Clown strives even more. Remember, you'll always lose gens vs good survivors, it's making sure the ones that pop are in areas that offer no rewarding play towards the middle portion of the round. The idea being, survivors are constantly looking to heal away from your chases, that way they aren't braving doubling up on a gen, and when they do, your rotations quickly break those down. As survivor, always heal vs a competent Clown, this is why I don't use SB or any other braindead slowdown perk, I encourage healing because I know it hurts them either way - once they feel my pressure and want to get the gen done first (makes sense) but since chases end very quickly with Clown, they cannot all afford to bull gens, because if they all stay injured, chases end even more dangerously quickly. Forgot to speak about how to best play with his reloads, you shoud be aiming for only one bottle per chase, sometimes certain areas call for two, in those instances, on your second chase, only use a bottle once you have them injured, that way you aren't reloading in a chase. Wasting bottles is a massive mistake people make - so having 1 extra is a great add-on to use, in case of human errors in the match. Never be in a position where you're reloading in a chase. The survivors gain too much time. If you must reload, hide yourself from them so they don't see you. A good survivor knowing they have that amount of time to get space is very punishing, so fake a mindgamey movement and then reinitiate pressure in that chase. I very sincerely believe Clown is not as weak as people say he is; purely from my own experiences.
1 -
@immortalls96 his stats are typical for most killers. And his ability has got very good value for usage if used properly.
0 -
He has stats only better than nurse and shes in purgatory atm...every other killer beats him out by a lot ..defend your main and I respect that but the truth is hes not in a good spot whatsoever
0 -
@immortalls96 i'm gonna ask again, what stats are these? No vague responses, what stats are you on about?
0 -
The dev stats for one..and not to mention countless hours of game footage by players who have played during all stages of the games life
0 -
@immortalls96 The Devs stats aren't really reliable. Let's be frank, they have so many factors that are warped by inconsistent elements. And do you honestly think that people play Clown the strongest/most fun way? I mean, Clown has been out for almost 2 years, and I only recently discovered his audio manipulation mindgame. The only reason I did was because of people on forums and my friend talking about what they could do to buff Clown. A lot of people said "remove his vault sound"; so I went into matches experimenting with it, and what do ya know, his vault sounds exactly the same as his bottle toss. So I go experimenting more and more, and find, it is a very good mindgame that only Clown can do with reliable results of it working. Now, if that's something that slipped under the radar from players; imagine what else has, and imagine what that says for how people play Clown. If there is stuff they aren't knowing about and stuff they don't implement into their Clown gameplay, most likely they aren't playing Clown to the strongest ability, correct?
0 -
Just because a couple green ranks fall for a mind game that only works at very unsafe tiles anyway doednt mean clown can compete..hes a chaser killer that slows himself for crying out loud...you will not convince me of anything of thats the only trick clown has because ghost face does that trick way better and with real results
1 -
@immortalls96 What are you on about? Clown's ability to mindgame with his audio cues is something that works at strong tiles, namely: shack, building loops and vault infinites; AND this has been working against legit Red Ranks - so don't go trying to shove my arguments away with soft digs and pig-headedness. And how the hell does Ghostface have audio cue manipulation mindgames?
0 -
Pressure is not real.
0 -
It's called a 3rd person camera..and the red stain tarnishes the clowns potential mind games..slso..calling a valid point pig headedness doesnt exactly make me hold stock in your logic
0 -
@immortalls96 Seriously, you aren't even arguing with what I am speaking about. I'm talking Clown's audio manipulation: ie his grunts when he vaults and grunts when he throws a bottle. You can use those audio cues in LOS blocked loops to trick a survivor into thinking you vaulted the window when you actually tossed a bottle high up in the sky. It really isn't a valid point, you're on about the Red Stain, nothing to do with audio cue manipulation. And I called you pig-headed because you're going into this discussion with stubborness and a narrow mind, refusing to even give what i'm saying the light of day
0 -
Honestly do u play pig she has an ambush for chase pressure and her traps are a tool for keeping atleast 1 survivor off a gen
0 -
Thank you for the backup lol. I honestly don't know how no one else can see this. If chases are dominated so much, it is so easy to rotate and pressure other people doing the objectives. I wish more people knew how to play Clown at an advanced level, I really do. Such a fun killer
1 -
I dont agree with it because clown is a mediocre chaser with 0 pressure tools in his kit..its cut and dry my friend
1 -
@immortalls96 so, it's clear you're convinced every killer NEEDS a secondary power to have pressure. Well, you're wrong. Every single killer in DBD has pressure tools, it's all a matter of playing that killer the way their power requires you to play. For example, you can't play as Plague and then change to Ghostface and play the same way. There needs to be specific strategies and styles you employ for each killer. Clown is a brilliant chaser, and his pressure tools are tied in with that. Being able to end chases quickly, push people around by your dictation, shut down areas with ease, it's an invaluable tool to have as killer.
0 -
I play every killer in this game aside from leather face so I've more than enough experience to he able to formulate my own opinion..until I see this "High level clown gameplay " I have nothing to change my mind on him
0 -
@immortalls96 well, why wait until you see otners do it, when you can try out playing Clown in the manner I have detailed in this thread? Then see if that changes your mind about him.
0 -
When I next face a clown I'll be looking for it , till then I'm firm on my stance with him
0 -
@immortalls96 why don't you just play as Clown and try out the techniques and strategies I described? Since, most likely, the Clown's you'll vs will play him badly; most do, which is why most people think Clown sucks
0 -
I'll give it a go
0 -
You mean cough right?
0 -
And an awful one at that! He needs to see the doctor ASAP
0
