will The devs be consistent and nerf Synergy between secondchance perks for survivors?
as the The title states they wanna nerf The synergy between killer slowdown perks well I hope there consistent and do the same for survivors ..one is fine even two but when every survivor has at least 3 it gets very strong especially with swf
Comments
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No because they only cater towards evil survivor mains
now give upvotes.
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DS should cause Exhaustion.
Unbreakable is fine, idk how they'd nerf synergy with it anyway.
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We all know the answer to this of cause they won't why would they it would make the game not fun for survivors and they will have to change it back.
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I'm not a fan of this whole us vs. them mindset, but in all fairness, this is the exact same thing that happened to Exhaustion perks. When they were combined together, they were far too powerful, so they were changed such that only one could effectively be used at a time.
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I agree on stacking all the second chance perks being an issue. They need to add some permanent debuff like Exhaustion that limits each survivor to only 1 second chance perk use a game. Only 1 per survivor would be much more reasonable to deal with instead of what we have now.
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So you guys are aware of how powerful they are when combined? If so anything we will see soon?
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I cannot confirm one way or the other, I'm just saying that this isn't the first time we've tried to cut down on perk stacking. Exhaustion perks proved to be too much in the past, and it was getting to the point where slowdown perks were in the same boat.
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I think a great fix to ds is to decrease the stun time to 3 seconds and then to also make it to where it only lasts for 40 seconds..personally I think 60 seconds is to long
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The only one that could stand for an adjustment is Adrenaline. DS and BT are entirely in the killer's hands whether or not it does anything. Hook, move on. If they unhook, ignore it. Pressure a different survivor. I don't even run these perks since 9 games out of 10 they are absolutely useless.
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maybe play killer because all the second chance perks combined on every survivor is very strong
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I think the "us vs. them" mindset is completely justified in this case, since it's concerning game balance. OP didn't say anything to indicate any harsh feelings towards the people who play survivor.
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I do. Those perks are literally useless since I don't camp or tunnel. It's insanely rare for me to eat a DS.
The way killers on this forum talk, survivors should have no perks, have one health state, have the hindered status permanently, and shouldn't be allowed to move in a circle. Just walk to hook and die, please.
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DS is so not fine its 60 seconds of immunity plus a anti momentum it was designed to be a anti tunnel perk so im in favour of the condtion of that it deactivate when killer hooks someone else or you start working on gens
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If you work in a gen, unhook someone, start to heal someone else, or start to cleanse a totem, then yes, it should deactivate. If you get slugged and they hook someone next to you, then no. The point is to give the survivor a chance to do something. If they throw that away then that's on them. I also think the time should pause in a chase or if slugged.
It's simple to avoid. Go after someone else.
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They won't because they want the game to be easy for survivors. If the game is too much of a challenge for them, then they'll quit and that equals loss of profits. Truth be told, if the base game was balanced from the get go, over 80% of the things that were nerfed on killers and survivors alike would have never needed to be nerfed in the first place. But instead of balancing the base game, they just treat the game like it revolves around the perks, and that everything can be solved by changing perks constantly and nerfing/buffing killer powers. As far as money motives go, they can't touch survivors too much or else they risk them leaving. And it's not just money, they might actually think everything they've done (regarding balance) was for the most part, correct COA's. Just look at 1.9.2. for example. They thought that patch was balanced as can be, and they still think it was balanced, the only reason why they reverted it was due to killers leaving en masse, which caused queue times to skyrocket. For the most part, killers have been nerfed more consistently than survivors. And most of the killer nerfs were done for the sole purpose of making things easier for survivors, there was no regards to actual balance. Why did Nurse need to get nerfed? It was still easy to avoid her if you broke LOS and ran along sharp turns. Sure Spirit collision during phase was broken, that needed to be nerfed because it made no sense for her to be able to body block if she was in a different realm altogether, but why the vaulting animation change? Can't they just let survivors mind game instead of having free information given to them so they can loop easier? Why does Prove Thyself have no cooldown yet perks like Surge and PGTW have cooldowns? Why isn't swf a separate mode from solos since swf throws the game off balance? Why do Moris and Keys have such uses of ease when they have the capability to turn the game around in an instant with no skill, thought, or effort? Why do mediocre killer perks have so much restrictions yet the most powerful survivor perks (most of which require no skill, thought, or effort) have little to no restrictions? Why is it that things are made easier for survivors yet for killer things are made so hard when it's already hard to play as killer?
Why is the game even being 'balanced' around yellow-brown ranks? If you make things easier for new and low skilled survivors, then you're removing the challenge for experienced and skilled survivors, and making things harder for new and experienced killer, especially experienced killers. Is this all to say that playing killer is impossible or that this response is just to push the killer main sentiment? No, it's just pointing out all the flaws with the way the 'balancing' team handles balance and how the state of the game causes the survivor vs killer main dilemma. When survivors get nerfed less than killers do and buffed more than them, then of course killers are going to notice this and call it out, they have been since 2017. Survivor bugs and issues also get fixed more quickly and often than killer problems do. Is there an actual logical reason behind this, such as maybe killer bugs and issues are more difficult to fix, or is it because survivor needs are more important?
Not to be pessimistic, but this is where we're headed, back to the "Dark Times".
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DS and its interaction with lockers + its interaction with borrowed time (fearless body blocking for not one but TWO hits since if I down you on the second one, you just stab me if picked up) seems unintended
Also, Adrenaline. I really think Adrenaline should work like other exhaustion perks and should encourage players to not be sprint bursting/dead harding when theres just one gen left. Survivors are in possession of more information about how "done" generators are, than killers are, and are in a fine position to control their use of Exhaustion until Adrenaline kicks in. Its a powerful once a game perk but it just works differently from other exhaustion perks and is, I think, the only place stacking of exhaustion perks is encouraged.
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which is what the changes will encourage more (the go after someone else) and get rid of the issue of it being abused as a minute of immunity which you have to times by 4 i disagree that it should pause if you are in chase or slugged theres a reason why there a time limit which i hope @Peanits can explain
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Yeah and that is fine..... except DS, BT and Adren are not exhaustion perks, so those can happily be run together alongside a DH or SB or Balanced Landing or Head On.
And yeah, I'm also not a fan of "us vs them", but we are talking balance so you HAVE to look at both sides....
I play both sides and its really weird to just look at slowdown perks and not look, again, closely at the overused meta on the survivor side.
Especially since very few perks on the killer side has any kind of impact like the survivors have.
Post edited by ZoneDymo on6 -
Unless it's the EGC. Then both perks are free escapes.
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We are far from "back at the dark times"
Seriously, I dont understand the shitstorm the ruin nerf brought, its ridiculous, you people came from disliking the devs a bit to completely despising them.
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Makes entirely too much sense. Must try 31 different new things to get back to the same exact spot we use to be at. Blasphemy
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Isn't they changed to 3 second stun but back to 5 second stun again because of Enduring?
Enduring doesn't work DS anymore now. Why DS stun still unchanged?
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I think the point of this thread is that none of the "second chance" perks are overpowered by themselves, it's when combined and typically on 2-4 of the survivors in most games. I play red ranks every season and this is by far the norm not the exception. These perks are as common if not more common than "meta" killer perks. I deal with these perks constantly and it is extremely boring and stressful. Every single survivor runs DS, 3-4 run unbreakable, 3-4 run DH and the last perk is a mix of either IW, Adrinawin or BT. Put this on the entire survivor team and add in some toolboxes and it is just stressful, unfun and entirely unbalanced.
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Some people here missed the point I was making lol because they went on attack ..you can tell who mains survivor just by reading the comments
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Then why does adrenaline, an exhaustion perk, ignore exhaustion?
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Second chance perks are so good because they're the part of the game that's balanced around solo queue and not SWF. Against four solo queue players, 1 adrenaline, 1 unbreakable and 1 ds on the enemy team is balanced, but when you have a full swf that all have ds and adrenaline it becomes pretty unbearable.
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It's how they worded their posts. They completely ignored why Ruin was used, instead focusing on 'overused' and 'frustrating to new/inexperienced survivors.' You can't disregard one side in favor of another (not just that, but the bottom end of that one side), and expect it to foster good will.
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Okay @Peanits, let me give an example of how these perks can stack...
Let's say that there is 1 survivor with ds, adrenaline, unbreakable and dead hard. They also have a bottled time medkit, and a 2nd survivor bas borrowed time.
So, here is a perfect scenario for the survivor:
1st chase: the survivor is decent enough. He is able to take a hit, use his dead hard to avoid a hit, use his bottled time to take a 2nd extra hit, and go down with hit 4. (4 hits total. 1 hook state).
Now, survivor 2 hook bombs, and the killer goes for a hit, and activates borrowed (1 hit)
2nd chase: uses dead hard again to avoid a hit. And then goes down. The killer think he has DS, and leaves him on the ground. He now uses unbreakable to get up. (2 more hit, 1st hook state). The killer probably wont find him for a little, as he probably went for another survivor. He will go heal up to a healthy state.
2 chases in and he has already taken 7 hits (2 avoided hits) and only gone 1 health state.
3rd chase: killer will go and hit the survivor. At this point, the killer wont fall for the dead hard, but the survivor can use it to get to a pallet. Now he has the survivor cornered, and will take them down. (3 hits total, 2nd hook state)
The 2nd survivor will, again, go bomb the hook, and have borrowed time activate. The killer swings, and goes after you again. (1 hit, 2nd hook state)
4th chase: the survivor uses dead hard to avoid hit one, as they go into a locker. The killer, because they are bloodthirsty for a kill, grabs the survivor out of said locker, but it's only been 25 seconds or so. So they get hit with DS. (2 hits, 2nd hook state).
5th chase: the final chase. For this perfect example, they will be able to use dead hard again to avoid a hit. Then, with the luck of the timing, adrenaline pops. The killer not only misses the swing with the sprint burst, but the survivor is now healthy and gaining a decent distance. But the survivor is out of options. Unless they get to the gates, they will take 2 more hits and finally die out. (4 hits total, death hook).
Now we talley the max amount of hits a survivor can take in 1 game, assuming they get to heal once after a slug....
17 hits. This is a perfect example with everything going right, but the idea of how much this can stack.
Will the perfect game happen... maybe a .001%
But, because of how often these perks are run, you will probably get at least 4-5 extra hits with this setup on the norm. This means that, with a setup like this, you will basically have an extra set of survivor lives.
This means, when a killer goes against a team like that, you will face between 7-8 survivors worth of lives.
How often do you see these perks in a game? Quite often honestly.
Between this, the gen speeds that are done nowadays, and the older large maps, it is hell for killer right now.
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I dont think there is any need to nerf synergy, the only perks that need nerfing is DS (so its only anti tunneling) and slightly Adrenaline (healing of hooks and on killers back). IMO it would suffice, Unbreakable and BT are fine and almost fair.
This would solve nothing. The problem with DS are activation conditions, or rather lack of deactivation comditions.
So IMO DS should disable when:
- You are the last survivior not dead/hooked/downed
- You start performing any action (except vaulting, mending etc.)
- You get caught in a Bear Trap
- Another DS activates
- 2 more other surviviors get downed in tje meantime (-30 seconds per down)
Also to compensate for this nerf and to increase the "anti tunneling" part, DS timer should be paused while in a chase.
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just cause you said give upvotes
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Clearly you've never been hook teched. Or had a survivor run to the hook right in front of you. Or maybe even played killer.
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In your example a hook bomb should end with a quick down for the unhooker instead of a focus on the first chased. Besides that in general you are ignoring that a killer has control/counters against those perks. Also equal a DH avoidance with a hit is unfair. A survivor gains much less distance for it.
I personally think most "second chance" perks are fine, even if stacked or with their synergy in mind. DS & Unbreakable have quite synergy, but a limited one, because of their one time use and the fact that it's doing what it's meant to do, counter slugging and tunneling. No problem per se. There is only one problem with DS in general, with it's 60s immunity, but that takes less a role in that synergy. BT can be annoying, when the unhooked blocks you. But that it's map dependend. DH is an exhaustion perk like SB, Lithe etc. It gives you distance in a chase, like those and isn't a second chance by my opinion.
So from all second chance perks I think only DS is in a bad spot right now and needs an additional deactivation state, to discourage dumb annoying plays during the 60s immunity.
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Well the devs seem to be aware of it. I wouldnt be surprised if they are discussing ideas now
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Ok daddy
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For me it is really strange how everyone is trying to explain possbile problems with stacking these perks but literally nobody mention why these perks are taken in first place. And that is the REAL problem. I just love running Hunch, Q&Q, Inner and one random perk for example Head on. And then I meet this guy next who tunnels me after my first game. Cool I move on. Well I meet the next guy who does that too, cool, I move on. Well what do you know I meet another guy who does the same. I suddenly I am out of time to play and I all I had was lets say half of the time being tunneled and I all I can do in this situation is equip DS BECAUSE the killers will just force me to. I hate this perk so much. I hate being forced using perks just because you have no choice. BT is exactly the same situation. I want to play what I want while I can enjoy the game. Until the game is not changed the way tunneling/camping is not needed and is punished extremely hard I don't see what we are talking about here. I can see the eventual problem with SFW I really do but majority of us are solos and we can't even see the other survivors perks in the loby after so many years of development. So the synergy is close to zero for solos
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You dont need to tunnel to eat a ds if you hook someone and go chase someone else and if you happen to have down the other survivor 50 second ago you cant do ######### about that you will eat the ds because 1 mi ute is too damn long 30 sec should be enough to counter a tunneling killer
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I think we should have a 5th perk slot that is reserved for certain perks only. Like throw all the 2nd chance perks or gen slow down perks into this category and you can only equip one. To prevent stacking of OP perks. Have you noticed most new survivors/killers have crap perks? I think it's because they can't add something new without disrupting the game. MoM being the prime example. That was a terrible moment in dbds history yet if you could only run MoM it might have been fine. It was OP when it was mixed with ds, bt, and adren.
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I don't really have a problem with DS. Never really a problem in my games as killer as I can usually play around it. Did the person recently get unhooked? I'll leave them slugged (and since slugging is powerful it's probably better anyways). Also I can choose to get it out of the way early in situations where I know they won't have it for later when it really matters.
On the other hand when playing survivor and there is no obsession in the game? I've seen some nasty tunneling that makes me reconsider throwing it into my build. Honestly though those games I don't mind if I get camped/tunneled cause the sweaty killer already makes the match unfun so I don't mind getting out early.
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"Terrible moment in Dbds history", also known as the Mettle of Man Crisis, let it be known that is ie what this time period shall be known as.
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Do we have a name for that patch that removed the timing for getting a pallet/flashlight stun? The one that had to revert like a week later because if someone was down at a pallet it was impossible to pick them up if another survivor was nearby?
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Dont know, i just know that The Mettle of Man Crisis as a name is funny as frick. lol
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I think survivor perks are too strong when you can combine them to a point that you have a counter to every situation possible. Back in 2016 you slugged every survivor and the game was over, but now even if one of them is running unbreakable it can turn the game araund completely.
Same thing even one DS can make a massive difference, combine this with 4x survivors running it. DS gives survivors generally insane passive buff, becouse you cannot rehook freshly unhooked survivor for 60 seconds (without tunneling this happens often). To me DS is more like anti snowball perk, which punishes you for doing well, similar to NOED.
Then we have perks like Deliverance to give 100% chance to unhook yourself, giving another second chance perk if you really mess up. I don't see this perk really problematic with solos, but in SWF groups it can give yet another safety net. Killer doesn't really know when the game is truely over until all the survivors are actually dead.
I believe if there was no perk mode. We would see more killers playing it, becouse survivor perks give far better game changing effect compared to killers.
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is anyone gonna actually tell these guys that Adrenaline is actually a exhaustion perk :')
I mean what?!
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Game slowdown stacking is the same as Second chance stacking. You put 4x perks to stop the other side from doing their main objective to win. Im surprised, that the problem has been identified that quickly in gen slowdown. But for 3 years we have the same 4x Second chance meta which can lead up to 20x Second chances denying the killers main objective. Singlehandedly winning them the game through perk stacking. I dont see how that is any different from slowdown stacking.
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I think Deliverance, Unbreakable, and DS should cause exhaustion and not work while exhausted. That way, they're only second chance perks, not second, third, fourth and fifth chance.
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The synergy is still there for solos just equip multiple second chance perks. DS should still be anti-tunnel and BT should still be anti-camp, the problem is these second chance perks are getting abused by solos and swf alike because they extend outside of their intended purpose all the time with how non-restricted their activation requirements are on top of them being stacked.
You want DS to be anti-tunnel? Sure, just make it deactivate if the killer is not tunneling (such as hooking someone else or giving the survivor room to work on their objective).
You want BT to be anti-camp? Sure, but make it so it cant be abused by hook bombing or people looping you around the person on the hook. Something like "If the killer is within x meters for x seconds without entering a chase, BT activates" or something. People are going to say "oh but the randoms I get are bad and loop around me on hook! I can't control what they do!". Well as unfortunate as that is, a bad play is a bad play and until DBD becomes 1v1 your teammates are going to affect you.
Killers hated running slowdown but it was so detrimental not to run it because of the gen speeds/map design problems. Slowdown was nerfed because staking them was too strong, other perks should follow suit.
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Then time your unhooks better or that other person should loop better/longer or farther away. Make it so they have to be downed, not just hooked to deactivate DS. There are other solutions if this scenario becomes a problem. But we can't let these perks go unchanged because the survivors might mess up or might be potatoes. I don't agree with the bear trap one, you can be tunneled into a bear trap.
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The main objective of a killer isn't to kill a specific survivor while giving others a free escape, missing 75% of his objective. He's supposed to do so the whole game I mean survivors can take 3 hooks each which encourages skilled gameplay from killers. Ds and unbreakable were created with the same mindset in case those 3 hooks aren't enough to make the killer realise this isn't an effective way to get to his objective! Isn't it obvious after getting ds punished once lol?! You're not playing dead by daylight correctly as a killer. Both sides are supposed to synergise together not to be compared with a versus mindset my man peanits is right.
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Or you know we could simply make camping and tunneling illegal. Then there wouldnt be a need for those perks and no one could abuse it.
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That's the killer doing their objective, you'd have to change the whole game to even make that a considerable option. That be like saying we should make focusing gens illegal.
Camping has its inherit downsides and gives the other 3 survivors an easy escape. Tunneling is sometimes the best way to get the main objective of killing the survivors done. As much as I love going around and hooking everyone equally, its not very viable in the current state of the game.
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