will The devs be consistent and nerf Synergy between secondchance perks for survivors?
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Peanits for me the main prob I see its DS. Being designed to be a Antitunnel perk but giving 60 secs inmunity.
If the intention is to be antitunnel do it so:
-Rescuing a person from hooks and getting down is not tunneling.
-Heal another player is not getting tunneled.
-Hide in a locker could be becuz getting tunneled but not best strategy.
-Stop right in the place is not getting tunneled.
-Do protection hits arent getting tunneled.
-Repair gens, cleanse a totem, or another interaction is not getting tunneled.
Getting tunnelled is:
-Vaulting.
-Running.
-Drop a pallet.
The same the DBD team made to Borrowed also an antitunnel perk should be applied to DS.
Then you can study if exhaustion perks should be nerfed but I think even much survivors players are agree with me that DS is not fine.
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- You need to coordinate unhooks. If there are multiple surviviors unhooked at the same time, then killer should be able catch some of them, you cant expect killer to let everyone go. Not to mention that it can lead to bullshit situations. That rule was created to ensure that multiple DSes cant be active at the same time, because its impossible to tunnel more than person at the same time.
- Thats the point of the Bear Trap. Catching surviviors that are unaware of them. The thing is, that Trapper has no control over who an when will get caught in his trap, so its never tunneling. Basically if a person with DS active gets caught in your trap, you waste a lot of time just to find out that they have DS... And getting caught in a Bear Trap is always surviviors fault (except bugs). If you dont want to get caught after getting unhooked, then follow THE SAME path that killer used to leave the hook or the one that rescuer used to get to you. And look at the ground.
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You say that but I see plenty of people being tunneled/camped with 5 gens remaining even pre ruin nerf (ruin still active).
I dont mind giving a killer a "free" hit so he let's the person go but most dont.
I see the point in tunneling and camping after the gens are done or when you have 1 gen left and there are still 4 people left.
So yeah whenever I see a killer camp or tunnel I honestly want to DC because at that point only I am playing and the killer might aswell be a crow.
Few months back I made a post about how we could slow the game down towards the end of the game. The jist of it was survivors cant finish the last gen as long as nobody died. (Either die on hook or sacrifice yourself in an alter) But devs said that it would be too easy for killers so yeah.
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What? XD
So we should also make abusing DS illegal?
There would be a judge for every game that would decide if DS user was being tunneled or not? Lmao
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Only if the game is paused and judged right there and then.
In all seriousness it's s catch 22 you cant nerf it because killers tunnel and you cant outlaw tunneling because sometimes that's the only thing you have got going for ya.
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If they got camped to death and all 5 gens were up then it sounds like the survivor team was 4 potatoes. You want to make the argument 'Oh but I didnt have fun" well the killers currently aren't having any fun in most of not every game because of the perk stacking, gen speeds/map design, and overall strength of non-potato survivors.
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I didnt say that i didnt have fun but being found first and then tunneled 10 times in a row gets old pretty fast.
When killer camps or tunnels like that it you cant call it a game.
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"So yeah whenever I see a killer camp or tunnel I honestly want to DC because at that point only I am playing and the killer might aswell be a crow."
That was my understanding of the situation. If you are getting found first 10 times in a row then it sounds like you need to work on not being seen so easily. maybe hide until someone else gets injured.
When survivors can finish all 3 gens in one chase time, you can't really call it a game.
It goes both ways. Tunneling and camping suck. Gens speeds and map design sucks. Second chance perks stacking sucks. The problem is some of these are balancing problems and others are "well, I just don't like how this feels." Not saying fun has no place in the game, that how we end up with Nurse being strong but extremely unfun to play.
But balance comes first, we need a balanced and fun game, not just one or the other.
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My problem is not being found first. My problem is killers tunneling me to death 10 times in row which was semi solved after I put DS on. It especially sucked since I had a challenge to escape one game.
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DS will still stop tunneling if changed to deactivate after x. Might even be able to get rid of the once per game aspect of it to really say no tunneling.
If your concern is "well what if they hook someone else then come for me". they are by definition not tunneling and now you're the closest to getting killed, so you are the prime target.
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The problem is the X, in reality it will probably be deactivate if X, Y and Z doesnt/does happen.
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I wrote suggestion above that IMO would nerf DS without removing the anti tunneling part, it would even buff it.
Not to mention that current DS CAUSES more tunneling, because "eating DS early" is the best counter to DS right now
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If people can counter it to get rid of it what's the point of the nerf... people will still eat it early to get rid of it.
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People will not eat it early if they dont have to...
It wastes you time and its innefficient. You eat it early so you dont get some bullshit like getting DSed by a guy who was finishing the last gen for 40 seconds (50%). If that were gone then most would not bother.
And if they do, then its their loss, they wasted their time. Timer paused while in chase will make sure the killer will get DSed if they really try to tunnel you
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Cant you combine sprint burst and adrenaline to go like super speed for 3 seconds? But arent they both exhaustion perks?
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I mean, you want them to give exhaustion to all the strong perks ? but here's an idea tho, Adrenaline cant activate if you're exhausted, and decisive strike stops if you hook another survivor / the survivor works on a gen (you can heal, be chased, hide, etc)
Done, i balanced the perks people cry about.
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I'm really hoping you're exaggerating, considering that even before the Ruin nerf good squads could absolutely 100% consistently do all 5 gens in 6 minutes or less, cut down further to consistently being around 4 - 4:30 minutes if using Toolboxes and/or Prove Thyself.
You cannot possibly want the game to move towards 5 minute matches while there are anything in the range of 20-30 pallets on each map, with a dozen or more of them being unmindgameable and thus straight up requiring giving the survivor another ~20ish seconds of chase time minimum.
I recently easily looped a Ghostface for almost four minutes on just seven pallets combined in the downstairs area of The Game. He played the chase absolutely perfectly but i was NEVER threatened to take a hit, for enough time for three whole generators to be finished by only two remaining teammates, plus a door with a bodyblock escape. The gen slowdown perks weren't even strong ENOUGH to counteract good survivors and the bajillion freebies they have available.
Me and my friends consistently get 3 or 4 people escaping and i'm literally the only one on our squad who has access to DS, Unbreakable and Borrowed Time on 1 character (with 1 more having BT+Unbreakable cause he's a bill main and the rest having absolutely no meta perks)
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Since the ruin nerf I've yet to see a hardcore slowdown build succeed very well..the consensus is most slowdown perks are crap by themselves and that sneaky change to blocked gens just made ruin even less appealing than before..which is saying quite a bit..the difference between exaustion and slowdown perks is EVERY exaustion perk is very strong..while all but 1 or two slowdown perks are laughably weak
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Just because someone disagrees dosent make a them a survivor main. Im a killer main and i dont mind ds bt and all the other "meta perks".
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I dont understand the issue. What is y and z? The problem is the perk is too easy to activate and last too long. It needs an condition to deactivate if you want it to stay anti-tunnel but not anti-everything.
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I disagree, there are examples abound of unbreakable saving an entire team when they played terribly. I feel bad when I unbreakable and save my entire team as a survivor because clearly we did something wrong and we are barely getting punished for it. I hate hate hate when it happens to me as a killer because I then dont get rewarded for playing well at all. Paired with DS it gets to be really annoying because it can easily become a free health state and 60 seconds of immortality for the survivor. My suggestion would be to just gut unbreakable, it's way too strong.
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Do you think it might be wiser to actually tell us at the start? or even when we were discussing the ruin changes and what could work with the changes might of been nice to go hey guys and girls just a heads up the new ruin wont work with TT as TT stops regression. Instead it came out in a random post thats just not cool.
also can you clarify on why you thought that was fair to do considering TT blocks it just for 16 seconds i would understand if it was 45 second like the deadman perk (the new one) but to pause regression for 16 seconds seems a bit pointless
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OR they can make tunneling impossible, cam0ping impossible by punishing them all and all of a sudden you don't need a perk called DS and a perk called BT and they can be easly change them to do something entirely else. But ofc why would we change something that suits killers, instead we have to blame it all on the survivors who use perks that the devs gave us to deal with a problem that is just as old as the game is. Just finished a game where I got tunneled 3 times in a roll by a very nice freddy who perfectly saw the one who unhooked me every time. Deal with that first and then we can talk by changing any perks. I really don't give a damn about any so called second 3rd 4d chance perks as I long as killers dont get punished real hard when they tunnel
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The issue is problems like DS is not as simple as if someone else gets hooked it turns off.
Because it doesnt solve reason DS is used, campers and tunnelers. If you made it into it turns off if someone is hooked. Killers will take advantage of it, by for example camping downing person who is unhooking downing the person who got unhooked. Then proceeded by both people being hooked.
EDIT(My reply to similar question):
Not really, even if I looked past the camping meaning even if you get unhook the person who unhooked you would be hooked and he could continue tunneling the person.
Then there is who just go for unsafe hooks which would yield same result.
EDIT: If you want to make it more fair you would have to check multiple things like for example:
1: Was someone hooked after I was unhooked
2: 10s timer that checks if you are in their TR
3: Check if you are in chase / get downed.
If 3rd one is true DS stays active for duration of the chase + process repeats if they come back in next 10 seconds.
Else it turns off.
And if they down you it stays active as long as you are in dying state. If you get picked up process restarts.
If DS is active and you start doing a gen DS deactivates.
Different rules after all gens are done.
Could also be a counter to mori as in if you have DS and you didnt use it in the match. When killer tries to mori you your DS gets deactivated for the rest of the match and you cant be worried for the rest of the match.
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I'm glad @Peanits brought up exhaustion.
Many people on here seem to forget how much survivors have already had nerfs to synergizing perks.
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@Peanits lul u talk about faimess? :D U gave play to survivors with voice programs and u really think its faimess? :D O M G! :D
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they tried making camping impossible and survivors abused it, so blame them for that one. We could try another way but it would have to hurt the survivors as well or else they'll abuse it. Maybe block all gens until the survivor is saved? Nope camping becomes a problem. The killer objective is to kill survivors, unless you make a faster way than tunneling to kill them you will be punishing the killer for doing what they are supposed to do. Alternatively you could reward the killer by not tunneling (no not BP, not a perk, something in every game). I'm not saying we can't do these things, but fundamental changes will be needed to balance it out.
If you want to punish the killer for doing what they are supposed to do, then lets do the same for survivors. They can no longer gen rush, once one gen starts getting worked on the rest are blocked. No thats ridiculous, as is this suggestion to make it literally impossible to do use effective tactics to do your objective because "But I don't like it".
These are too many things for one perk to cover and a lot of those can still be worked around by survivors pretty easily. If you don't like this version people already suggested having it turn off when a survivor touches a gen among other things. Camping and tunneling are not a "problem" they are strategies used by killers that have counters. You're basically saying "but what if the killer is tunneling two people" then that's not tunneling. There's only 4 people in a game, that's half the team. If you want them to go and hook each person 1 by 1 then you'll have to make other changes to give them the time to do that.
The main problem is DS is too safe and easy to activate with how strong it is. Reduce the timer, rework the perk, change the conditions, do something, but I have not seen you suggest a way to change the perk so its not longer covering EVERYTHING and having survivors purposely put themselves in your way because they have DS up. I've done it, my friends have done it, the randoms have done it. DS needs a change.
Then you add other perks on to it and it becomes a little crazy "Its ok I have deliverance up, alright I'll jump off right now when he takes two steps away and DS him when he downs me and unbreakablill if he leaves me, ok pop the last gen so I can adrenaline out and get healed, bye have a wonderful time!" Theres not much most killers can really do about this situation besides watch the survivors cheeks clap out the exit gates.
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Then we might aswell only add clause that if you work on gen it turns the DS off so survivors dont abuse it but keep it at 60sec so killers dont abuse it.
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This is an us vs them, specially because this is a versus game, not a coop game. People will be voicing by this mindset all the time, whether its correct or not is a matter of you guys watching matches and analyzing statistics because personal experience isnt the same for all ranks and players.
As for the second chance perks what is not actually seen is that they are so powerfull because they CREATE another survivor in the game, actually making the time effort of the killer even more narrow than already is.
Examples:
1) Unbreackable => you dont need another survivor to pick you up, you pick up yourself (once), but still it can save a lost game at least 4x if 4 people have it, adding 4 extra hands to the game.
2) DS => instead of someone flashlight saving, body blocking, or taking a protection hit (which can be swaped for BT also, lols), you escape by yourself, giving more time for your other teamates to continue doing what they are doing, instead of interacting with the killer.
Etc... you get the idea.
I dont think the first is that much of a problem, but DS should certainly be reworked in the sense of people acting invincible. If you hook another person I cant see a reason for that first person to be freely doing whatever and specially on endgame collapse DS becomes too powerfull, specially if you dont actually have other person that is possible to chase.
I think second chance perks would be fine as they are IF and only IF perks with the same value that could actually counter specific builds could be found at the Killer's disposal, but now you cant even use Enduring to tone down those stuns, and thats not even mentioning the new changes to Sabo that wont actually have any counter perks, only Slug tactics to counter (which btw can be easily countered by experienced team using unbreackable - not standing close together and swarming the killer, etc).
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That is a very common suggestion yes, it just has to be extended to include unhooking so you don't end up in a chase the hooked get DS chase the unhooker still get DS situation as by that point you clearly are not tunneling but they are throwing themselves in your way.
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Limit them per survivor. Make them choose...
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So are you happy with the gens getting done in 5 minutes and killers are at the mercy of survivors being alturistic or not.
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Thats why devs added No Mither. When you will become bored of easy games, you can play with No Mither to have at least a tiny challenge.
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Hmm, or perhaps they should invert the recovery speed bonus, make it -35/30/25% or something so the killer would have much more time to pick them up after their DS runs out.
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Still no response to second chance stacking. No wonder killers leave, if you only take crutches from one side. See ya in 1-2 years
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Maybe they will, but its been a long time of this combination with no change in sight; and instead we get nerfs to Ruin, the one perk that really helped out all the mid and low tier killers, and left them with nothing instead.
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So as a "killer main" you have no issues with DS and BT when a team hook techs. You "let the unhook happen" when the team plays stupidly and go somewhere else when there are 2 survivors right in your terror radius? You don't chase a survivor sprinting to unhooks? Your original post implies that you do and only really discusses you not running DS and BT because they are useless perks. Also you name is toxicnancymain so I'm thinking a lot of what you are saying isn't adding up. Like at all.
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Why should the game be slowed down. That doesn't sell nea, feng, or meg skins. There are no game health issues being wildly ignored here, please visit the store and check out our sweet, sweet new skins. There gonna make you look so toxic.
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Yep, they care more about short term gains then long term health of the community. We can't make games last a satisfying amount of time, that would take too much work and might actually make the Killer the power role its supposed to be.
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Hook tech isnt a big deal for me cause stbfl and ds never works against me cause i slug aloot and bt just never activates cause i go for the unhooker unlese the bt person tries to bodyblock. My name is toxic nancymain cause i used to main survivor.
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These are single use perks, you can only use DS once, you can only use unbreakable once, Adrenaline activates once if all the work gets done. Dead hard is an exhaustion perk and can only be used once, when injured per 40 seconds or whatever the cooldown is. The slowdown perks for killers were not single use. That is the difference.
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spoken Like a true survivor main
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No, but his title is very suggestively saying, "hey, you ######### us, what about them too?"
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Except I play both sides. I don't use any of those perks either but yes, keep telling yourself that only people who main survivor can see that killer mains constantly cry about every single survivor perk.
They're single use. If you can 't cope with that then cry elsewhere. I'm bored of hearing it.
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Single use perks that can be used across 4 survivors. And Slowdown perks where not nearly as powerful as second chance perks are, and survivors can still be synergistic with them while Killers are having that slowly stripped away from them because of survivor 'fun'. When does the killer ever get to have fun? Oh right, the killer isn't supposed to be fun, git gud, just apply pressure.
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