Survivors, as a killer main I wanna hear your side on gens.
So, as all DBD players know, majority of survivors always deny gen speed being unbalanced and killers always nag about it (I also am a killer main who is rank 1 on both sides)
It takes 80 seconds to do a single gen alone.
The killer is physically unable to chase more than 1 person, therefore at all times there are 3 people on generators, meaning that it takes 80 seconds for 3 generators to pop, now taking into account how long it takes to down a single survivor with dead hard and sprint burst and balanced landing and all that good stuff and also finding the survivor in the first place, 3 gens are done by the time you've hooked and gone up to a generator.
Now survivors always say "pressure gens 4head".
this is the thing that annoys me the most, there's no such thing as pressuring gens against a coordinated team, SWF or not. with maps being as big as they are, you can not walk up to 4 generators and stop all of them, you stop one survivor and you don't chase after them since you gotta "pressure" gens, therefore as soon as you leave the survivor is back on the gen and then you've achieved absolutely nothing.
So, if you agree with gen speeds being unbalanced then well... nice. Nothing we can do about it tho, since the devs apparently don't see it or don't want their precious survivors to get sad by balancing the game, but at least us killers realize that people appreciate us playing killer and understand our pain.
But if you don't, let me hear your thoughts.
~Cheers
Comments
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Well, I'm not a survivor main, but I play both sides. More so on the Survivor side now that I get terribly outmatched as killer. Red Ranks while being a green rank is no fun. It really makes me want to play the game less and less because I don't even get a chance to have a game that is fair for my skill level. So... yes, I agree gens go way too fast. When I play survivor I experimented with the toolbox with add ons and I was surprised how fast a common toolbox can make a gen go! The charges take forever to go down as well. So I think that is a great change.
However, I don't think it's really enough. When you have survive with friends that are pretty much die hards and have everything figured out. Know the maps as well as spawns for the pallets it makes it a real nightmare. Playing survivor at my level I look for things to do. I do 1 gen and look for totems or explore the map, but that is me. I also try to jump on the gens if the killer is being fierce.
Anyway, Like I said. Gen speeds are too fast right now, but we'll see how they are without toolboxes. In my opinion even without a toolbox they still go by a little too fast. The killer can only be in one place after all.
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Everyone knows games are too fast
well, everyone except the devs
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The issue I have, and I play both sides is that killers want EVERYTHING and it's going to put the game out of whack.
They want gens increased, maps smaller, killers buffed & survivors meta perks nerfed.
I don't think you can change all these and still keep the game reasonably fun for survivors, they're clearly working on maps and bringing weaker killers up a level or two every couple of patches and that's what they're focusing on
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You do realize the cause is that multiple people suggest different solutions to the same problem right?
So one person says they want to fix gen times by decreasing repair speed, while another wants smaller maps to accomplish the same function.
Taken together it can look like they want both, but that isn't quite the case.
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Except you'll often see the same 10 forum users in every thread on these particular topics all upvoting and agreeing, I don't think we can simply pass it off as "they all want different solutions" you and I have been here long enough to know that there's a vast amount of forum users that would happily welcome all these changes all at once.
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Gens go too fast right now, even without toolboxes or perks to help.
My wife and I intentionally spend the first 60 seconds of a match (approximately) looking for totems now, just to allow killers time to traverse the maps, set-up, etc. because we know if we go right on two gens, it'll go too fast.
Sometimes one of us is insta-spotted and we can't, but at least it's an early chase and hook to have pressure.
We don't mind doing it this way, but gameplay style isn't a fix, that's for sure
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This brought tears to my eyes and gave me hope in humanity ;_; Thank you both for your service to the killer community.
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This is a valid point but you have to understand that its up to the survivors to not 3 gen themselves, its usually never up to the killer unless they just sit around 3 gens which are extremely close due to RNG and those players just exist and nothing we can do about their corny play style.
And no I don't think increasing gen time will be any good, doing gens is already boring as hell, I would much rather a second objective much like other survival games.
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The main problem has always been the map design rather than gen speeds. Some maps are way too big, god loops still exist, very strong tiles can spawn next to each other etc.
Once maps are fixed, they need to tweak certain perks, items and addons (for both sides) and then the game will be somewhat balanced in my opinion.
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Once you start losing survivors in a game its harder and harder to knock out all 5 gens. I think that's a big part of it too. The games where the gens go lightning quick its a 4man escape, or you two hooked every survivor evenly and maybe one or two died late.
I don't have the answers, but if they're balancing around 2 kills 2 escapes I can see why they don't wanna change much. Either you need to get the killer away from the hook to avoid that early elimination or make mid game more consistently meaty.
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Too fast and boring.
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Main solo survivor here. Just posted a thread adressing current ridiculous gen speed. I feel your pain. It is absolutelly impossible playing killer agains 2 efficient survivors (yeah, I really meant 2 survivors, it is only neeeded 2 efficient survivors to get a 4 esacape).
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so iv been rank 1 survivor and killer 2+years. started more as a killer main but now i play survivor more.
As for gens its a mess, the game needs potatoes (i know they dont like being called that), by that i mean you need those survivors who are more scared to touch gens, they will hide alot, selfcare all the time after every hit, very weak on chases (dont know the loops especially involving windows and waste pallets). with survivors like those the game is more balanced, however if i had a full team my skill (not swf just my knowledge and skill) the killer will be lucky to get a kill on most maps, thats not me bragging as there are people a hell lot better than me and people who use meta perks but the fact is good/experienced survivors know how to play/counter all killers which will result in hard chases costing time, time which all those survivors will be on gens. if the ranks actually showed skill you would see how unbalanced it is, this is why i get games with a solid team and still de-pip for everyone escaping because the game was over so fast and easy the killer couldnt do much. on the other hand i have games where i die with 24k and someone escapes with 8k due to hatch etc. Basically ranks are a mess, which means the skill range in red ranks is a mess, which means you will have games you struggle to get hooks let alone kills and others you get 12 hooks with 5 gens left, but if they was to fix the game so red ranks was those skillful players (the ones who can lead on chases and could hit great skillchecks all the time) then youd see its survivor sided, nows thats coming from a survivor who understands that its the power role. thats without the mention of using meta perks, but i hardly play now. games are either stressful because my team never touches a gen and just hides all game or the games over so fast it didnt feel worth the queue time.
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I play both roles.
As killer, gens go fast.
As survivor, gens go slow.
Point made. :D
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You’re correct, the thing is killers don’t necessarily want ALL of these things just one or two? As someone who is about 50/50 I think just making maps a little smaller with a few less safe pallets would be great, but Map reworks are slow.
The quickest fix is just to make gens 100 seconds instead of 80, or maybe 90 since toolboxes are nerfed, or leave them at 80 but make toolboxes only good for sabo?
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Geez, its allmost like some maps are too big, but not all of them. Some killers need some buffs or QoL, but not most of them, Some perks are too good, when many other are weak and useless, etc... And all theses different small problems are part of the bigger "generator speed" problem.
All of this has been known for months or even years and discussed to death.
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Maps are the biggest issue in the game, every killer is able to 4K, some make it easier than others, I have no issue with any survivor perk currently because they can all be countered pretty easily.
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As someone who is 80% survivor main but has been red rank killer a lot over the past 2 years I think I understand the balance quite well.
For me personally its never been easier as survivor. I was actually wanting a buff to ruin because we were escaping too easily. Anytime we lose now I can say it was due to us making mistakes or moris. I've had plenty of games now where my full team has escaped but we can say we were destroyed.
I understand the argument that increasing gen times can be boring so that's not the best solution. Also I can see how the majority of this player base the game is balanced because they aren't amazing. It's only unbalanced at the top 10% of the game.
Just imagine a game like overwatch. Imagine if they didn't separate competitive and casual. There would be characters that seem weak to others but the best players know in a team they can be amazing. It's hard to balance it when both are facing the same character, but both see them differently.
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I think gens go a bit too fast in Red Forest maps where all gens are spread and in the outer rings of the map except the landmark generator, is really hard to patrol those, but in maps like Backwater, The Game and a lot more slower gens could be way too hard to do, especially with certain builds and with several killers. I believe the main problem are certain maps, both survivor and killer favored maps.
My issue is killers always complain about genrushing, which they may have a point, but when survivors complain about tunneling and camping they all flock with the same mantra "you cant complain because its a valid strategy", like gen rushing isnt a valid strategy too. I believe most killer mains are Spikes.
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i'm a survivor main and i think gens go way too fast. instead of doing something about it they nerfed ruin which i think was the worst idea. like i've said in a different post, i could cleanse a totem and by the time i'm done, 2 gens can pop depending on the items brought in and add ons, perks and weather people are working together etc.. it makes the game go too fast. no one gets a chance to do anything.
they nerfed ruin to cater for the newer players but EVERYONE was new to the game at some point and everyone would have sucked at skill checks when they first started but you get better over time.
less charges on toolboxes won't make any difference when they are making repair speeds faster with a toolbox. even without a toolbox, the repair speeds are too fast. thats just my opinion.
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The thing is, survivors can't reasonably escape without doing gens, killers can 100% win without tunneling and camping, it's just facts.
Post edited by Seanzu on1 -
If they do everything you mentioned except increase the gens I'd be fine with that, but if they don't do anything then at least increase the gen time and leave the maps as it is. They can literally fix all the problems this game has by doing mutiple things or doing 1 thing and that's increasing the gen time and making the interaction between the gen and survivor more interesting other than skill checks.
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I don’t think you know what facts are lol
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oops, I meant to put "Can't reasonably escape without doing gens".
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Without knowing we cannot for certain say what the average game time is.
The issue atm is the same as before. People complained even with ruin that the games were over within 4 mins yet the stats showed at red ranks the average game was 12m plus.
I am sure the time would have decreased with the ruin change but just how much we don't know. Maybe we will get the stats but I feel they will be after the sabo and toolbox changes have been in play for a while.
Post edited by twistedmonkey on0 -
I agree that maps are the biggest issue with gen times. That an survivors who coordinate with comm's. The reworking of maps will take a long time however. Increasing gen times is dangerous. Making survivors hold a button longer isn't going to help their QOL at all. Not to mention as a Billy main. I dont need the time added to gens that low mobility killers do. Should certain killers get more gen time than other?
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I don't think gens themselves go too fast. It's more a matter of the early game goes so quick it's hard to comeback from it. If they could find a way to slow the early game a bit I think that would help alot.
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This, the early game is so critical. Once you get a hook, if you’re decent as killer it turns into a chain of hook, chase and hook while someone unhooks, etc
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Though I play killer, I used to play survivor and my still does. My concern with altering gen speeds is though it might help the minority of players at the red rank levels, it will completely destroy all ranks below purple and maybe even purple. It will be a slaughter if gen times at rank 10 to 20 are lengthened. Killers already clean up at these ranks, even if they suck.
This will create a chokehold on the game and cause a massive survivor shortage. I want to see population grow, not shrink.
I think the answer lies in buffs and positive tweaks, not nerfs.
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I play both sides: About 60% survivor.
I don't think "gen speeds" are an issue and here's my reasoning.
If gens took any longer than they do currently, we'll say 100 seconds instead of 90 solo:
- Survivor would be even more boring
- If a killer gets an early down before any gens are popped (yes that is possible and happens pretty often), they could literally camped that first person to death and only 2 or 3 gens would get done. This is assuming a 4man SWF with comms and the guy on hook just says "don't come and focus gens". Any other scenario, people are going to hop off gens and attempt to help the person on hook.
- Due to the reason above, trash camper killers will become more prevalent because the reward of eliminating a player would outweigh the risk of losing a couple of gens and having only 3 people left.
So maybe focus on map size, or killer abilities or something else, but for the love of god, I do not want to sit on a generator any longer than we already do because those 80 seconds drag
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The difficulty in balancing generators is that the game becomes exponentially more difficult for survivors once someone is downed and hooked, and further more difficult once one is dead, and another is being chased/hooked.
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This. This. This.
I also think that every match plays different. My matches certainly have gens popping quick but they also have gens that do not pop as quick. Much of this has to do with killer keeping pressure.
Which is why putting pressure shouldn’t “annoy” you so much since you are already doing it because otherwise you wouldn’t win.
There are WAY too many variables that can tip the scales in a match. If gens took an eternity, imagine what those slow down perks would do. Nobody wants to hold M1 but nobody wants to make games were the killer doesn’t have to create any pressure.
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They are minds numbingly easy and if I'm not in a Chase there is little reason for me not to work on them. I do totems between gens and it still doesn't seem like I'm ever really pressed unless my team drops like flies it the killer is really really good at patrolling. Something needs to be done but I don't want to hold the button down for longer so I'm not sure what they could do.
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I think the point is that we all generally agree that something needs to be done. I'd prefer maps become smaller instead of gen times increased (M1 simulator lol). On top of that, there should be no infinites or "god loops" in these maps. Someone shouldn't be able to loop you in any place on the map until bloodlust 3, it shouldn't be possible. Unmindgameable loops need to be removed. Every loop/pallet should be mindgameable by every killer. But the reality is that it takes forever for the devs to rework maps, so in the meantime, something else needs to be done, or we will be in a state of imbalance for a year or more.
I honestly think most killer perks are fine outside of the obviously terrible ones (monstrous shrine.) There are a few changes that need to be made to some survivor perks. Like how DS should not be 60s of immunity and should cancel when someone else is hooked or something. Something should be done about survivors stacking all their second chance perks. The meta combo of DS/UB/BT/DH is dumb, it basically makes it so a survivor can cover literally every situation a killer can throw at them, and they shouldn't all be able to be stacked. Just like how BHVR doesn't want killer gen slowdown perks to all be stackable, all the survivor second chance stuff also should not be stackable.
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I understand that you do not want to sit on a gen for longer, that is boring. but your reasons are flawed.
you're saying that survivors should not do ANYTHING hard to escape, so pretty much if killer gets early down shouldn't be rewarded (whether he decides to camp or not). If it takes more than 2 minutes for me to escape (length of time that a camping killer wastes) the game is unbalanced or bad, You're doing at LEAST 3 gens by that time, how is that not rewarding the survivors because of a killer's mistake? Even if doing a single gen took 2 minutes camping would still lose the game for killer unless survivors were not good at the game or made mistakes.
So yeah I understand the gen time going up is not the fix here but your reasoning for it is pretty bad, the only reason that increasing gens wouldn't be a good fix is that its boring and nothing else.
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This game has a very fine balance, far too fine, and in most games that balance is out of whack for one side or the other. There tends to be too many variables for the killer - from map choice, to gen placement, to powers that are not always reliable (like Pig's rbt).
The time that makes and breaks it for killers is the first few minutes - they have to locate, chase, down, then hook a survivor to get some momentum going...while survivors usually spawn right next to one of their objectives. Momentum at the start is strong on the survivor side - and if the first survivor a killer finds is even moderately competent in a chase, that survivor momentum gets stronger.
Momentum can shift, but really only after one survivor is killed does it suddenly get to be a possibility.
So gens - they can go really fast, but it doesn't help that devs have survivors spawn right next to them, usually in pairs or more. Killers usually have to not only travel across the map, they have to guess right about which gen is getting ganked first. Yeah, has a lot to do with maps...but not layout as much as spawns imo - where the generators are and where the survivors start. Why Corrupt Intervention has become popular - it mitigates this shortcoming (a little), but at the expense of a perk slot.
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I play.both.
Gen times seem fine for the most part, i have noticed that killers tend to struggle a lot on corn maps when trying to keep pressure, clown specially feels abysmal on them.
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Not unbalanced against a good killer. Have had games where we finished just a single gen and we all died--we were all purple. If playing against a group of good survivors especially a dedicated swf team with toolboxes and perks and addons, the gens will go by at lightspeed. If the killers and survivors are about the same level, the advantage would probably be on the survivor side, but you don't need to balance the gens based on Red Rank survivors...most people who play this game aren't at the red ranks. You slow the gen speeds you'll make it even more hell for the gray and yellow ranks who already usually get smoked by even the most trash of killers.
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Gen time is a symptom of bad map design. Bigger maps, longer transport. Stronger loops, longer chases. If you increase gen times for maps like Father Campbells Chapel, you make winning absurdly hard against a decent killer. Fix the cause of the problem, not the symptom of it.
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I think a real solution is have a program(the entity) adjust the flow of the match depending on how things are going. Increasing gen speeds would help killers without early pressure but would be op on meta killers ect. Almost every solution has a downside so I propose an overseer. Some program to watch the flow of the match and adjust things depending on how hard the scales are tipping. For either side. Again this is just a suggestion. I'm not a programmer so I have no idea how they could make that but I think it would solve a few poblems.
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Killers can slow down gens and when they start slugging or things go wrong with saves. Often times only one or two people will actually stay on Gens.
Early game. Yeah gens can go fast. But once the Killer starts hooking or slugging the pace really slows down.
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Survivors can't escape without doing generators, just like killers can't win without killing. Both can pretty much win without rushing/tunneling. Gen rushing is a way to get gens done and nothing else, just like tunneling. Get people out of the game, ASAP.
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I consider myself a killer main, about 80% Killer 20% survivor. I believe I am red rank at both currently.
I would like to pose you a question @dustedstar do you think a killer should on average get 2 kills a game or 3+? Because this is really what you have to look into before we can discuss gen times. First of all the devs have stated that their aim is an average of 2 kills and 2 escapes a game (Yes I am aware there in game messaging disagrees with this). But how often do it get less than 2 kills per game, or would you find you average about 2 kills per game?
Now to speak about your gen time issue specifically, My issue with "gen times" is no one has provide a decent solution to the problem. The biggest one people suggest is to increase the time from 80 seconds to 100 seconds. But when I play survivor I get so bored of holding M1 for 80 seconds, I usually just run and find the killer to get chased. I would never play survivor if you told me it would take nearly 2 minutes to complete 1 generator. I would become a 100% killer main.
The next thing people often suggest is, a Secondary Objective for survivors to focus on. Which I am no opposed to, but what would their reward be for doing that objective. It would have to be something good to make up on the 5k BP they would be losing by just not focusing and doing gens.
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