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Marth experiment is valid or not?
What do you think?
Comments
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Link?
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Here s his channel.
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The experiments should be on his YouTube channel, along with a link to all the nifty parsed data that was collected (off the top of my head: killer, map, ruin y/n, ruin destroyed, 1st Gen done, all gens done, final escape, kills (per killer, per map, per match) , and individual points as well as averages of most). 300 matches were played, 100 with no comms, 100 with no perks but with comms, and 100 as a "hero squad" where it was required that they save teammates, no matter the risk.
Shortest gens time was something like 3:30, can't remember if it was with ruin or not. They never really bothered to blow ruin unless someone happened to walk right past it (which happened a lot). Longest games were 10-12 mins vs stall doc and Freddy builds, and Freddy was the most dangerous to the perk less group.
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Okay so what do you think?
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Marth's experiment happened 2 years ago with changes being implemented to Ruin, toolboxes and various killers since the experiment took place. He was also in a 4 man SWF with good survivors, which does not reflect the majority of survivors.
I think that considering how much the state of the game has changed, it wouldn't be wise to draw conclusions from that experiment, considering how much has changed since it took place.
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Sorry, forgot to even answer the OP. Yes, they're still viable, if anything, they are even more viable. With ruin cut down, every game now runs in a version of the depip squad (just powering through ruin unless someone bumps into it)... With the ruin change, all players are now handling the gens this way, and it shows. The experiments were always meant to show that optimal Survivors will nearly always beat the killer, regardless of the killer's level or build... There's been zero changes to change that equation. The gap increases every time the devs make changes to make things easier on new players.
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Yes, its still valid, extremely
now that ruin has been effectively removed from the equation, its even easier to replicate the end result
4 Man SWF- Myself and 3 others are all on seperate gens, 1 person gets chased. Even if they only last 30sec, thats usually enough time for the 3 remaining gens to pop, its stupid easy
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But then they lost to nurse when using comms. Doesnt it mean that she s extremely overpowered and needs to be handled?
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They lost to a few killers in there, including a pre rework Freddy, iirc. The point of doing 300 matches is to have good data. Pulling out one match is pointless. Nobody ever doubted that nurse is/was the strongest killer in the game. Considering that they blew up most killers, it can easily be said that nurse was the only killer that stood a chance, using your method. In reality, nurses still averaged less than 1 kill per game. They did average the highest number of hooks per game. The only two killers who averaged MORE than 1 kill per game? Freddy and Pig. So I guess they're the OP ones.
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I mean they were using comms that completely breaks the balance and nurse still win. Im wrong? How many games were against nurse at all?
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If nurse winning is an outlier in the data, then you really can't draw any conclusions from it.
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The most significant changes this game received since then were nerfs to survivors, or buffs to killers. Pallet vaccuum was removed, Healing Time increased, and maps were made more balanced, especially with the change where they increased the minimum distance of pallets, which reduced the pallet density on all maps and reduced the amount of pallets that would spawn on a map at average.
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no no no, because Spirit, Nurse & ruin were nerfed we have to pretend that for the past 2 years survivors have been buffed out the eyeballs and killers have been nerfed.
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LMFAO, I love the way you pretend it's been nothing but killer sided patches. But the irony is that if that's true, and then Marth comes back and does the experiment again and still destroys killers, then I guess that would mean survivors were just completely overpowered to begin with if they still have the upper hand now. Of course, the reality of the situation is that you're wildly biased, and a replication of the Marth experiment in today's DbD will only be even more devestating for killers. Hell, I'm currently rank 2 and a survivor and rank 9 as a killer even though I play killer more often. And trust me, that's not because of all the major killer buffs that have been happening.
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Stats by Killer Total Number Of Ratio Avg Kills/Game Avg Hooks/Game Avg Pips/Game
Nurse 31 15.50% 0.87 3.10 -0.68
Billy 54 27.00% 0.93 2.04 -0.85
Huntress 35 17.50% 0.83 2.06 -0.99
Freddy 15 7.50% 1.20 2.73 -0.73
Sorry, formatting doesn't really translate. These are from the 200 perkless/perk games, excluding the 100 hero squad games.
Also, I believe pallet vac was gone before the EXP took place.
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Just to be clear - in the comms/no perk experiment, only 4 out of 100 killers got a 4k. 1 EA of Freddy, Myers, Nurse, and Huntress. Huntress moried 3 of them. Myers had tombstone and one of the Survivors lost connection. Nurse had a mori and was also incredibly lagged. Freddy was the only one that didn't use a mori, and Freddy's dream state at the time was brutal vs Survivors not using any perks, esp self care.
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There was also an experiment where few nurses lost with ebony mori? I guess mori is balanced then?
Also so called "no comms" experiment is laughable. I mean they still knew each other and most likely had a plan to follow before games. Which also is the reason why he refused to make another experiment with me as a killer.
The questions are:
If the game is really such survivor sided why the heck would you need your friends you were playing with for so long in swf to prove the game imbalance? Why the heck you need toolboxes to prove ridiculuos gen times? I know they went with no items in one of the experiments but they still had comms which would compensate for everything.
If you ask me its not hard to win when you play in a team you know so well with toolboxes with addons that insanely increase those gen times against random killers.
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The entire point was to show that playing survivor optimally was what was broken, and that either using comms or using perks made no real difference - Survivors that play to win WILL win in a massive percentage.
They didn't redo the experiment because they were all sick of BHVR blowing them off completely. 2 bailed completely because there was nothing new to show and they'd just be beating their head against the wall. The other 2 were willing, but not so much that they'd bother finding another two.
Yes, they had a very basic plan for playing - do Gens, only safe unhook, and gtfo.
One experiment used no items, the other banned the most ridiculous add-ons like bnp.
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Here s what he said:
"No thanks. Most of the group moved on after BHVR played there hand they dont care about balancing this game at all. There business model is money > game health. So i just accepted it and gave up trying to advocate for change.
And trust me that experiment is still very valid. We as killers are just lucky survivors are boosted apes"
So apparently he needs his old team to prove games imbalance😂
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As far as I know the experiment (or most of it) was in March 2018, the vaccum was removed when Clown came out.
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I have a question to anyone claiming the experiment is still relevant today: why don't you replicate it? Prove that you're right. It should be easy if the results still matter, right?
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Here s what he said:
"No thanks. Most of the group moved on after BHVR played there hand they dont care about balancing this game at all. There business model is money > game health. So i just accepted it and gave up trying to advocate for change.
And trust me that experiment is still very valid. We as killers are just lucky survivors are boosted apes"
So apparently he needs his old team to prove games imbalance😂
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Y'all are funny. Some group puts down the many hours of both play and simply just trying to organize everyone on at the same time and still just denigrate the effort involved.
Here's a trick: if it was always so irrelevant, why don't YOU go ahead and put together a group of 4 and play your butts off to refute the findings? That's how debate works.
You don't get to say, oh hey, these guys collected a ton of data, recorded every bit of it, but they're wrong because that's what I think.
Maybe they are wrong. Feel free to prove it. Until then, I'm going to go with the side that actually made an effort to collect data, in full public view.
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This does seem to be correct. For some reason, I thought the vac was removed earlier that winter.
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I think they announced it quite early and showed video examples, that might be the reason :)
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Could be. I have a vague recollection of them fiddling something with pallets over the winter, maybe they tweaked some stuff before doing the full Monty on it. My memory is not good enough for that sort of length these days.
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well doesnt it make sense to challenge the one who put that experiment in the first place?
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Guys by the way Marth also believe a simple math in this game.
I quote him "This dev team gives no shits about balance so im not wasting my time. Plus its simple math and apparently half the community plus you are bad at it, and im not gonna sit here and explain it in details to a passive agressive keyboard warrior".
So he believes that 4 survivors means 12 chases in order to win.
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Not really, unless you plan on playing 100+ games against them.
All challenging them to a specific game does is massage your ego if you win, and show nothing if you lose. Further, it completely sidesteps the live test method, as in the live environment, a swf knows that they are a swf, knows what they are bringing, and knows their plan. The killer doesn't get to have the foreknowledge.
Your quest for some sort of rematch is simply for your own benefit and has nothing to do with trying to show any sort of empirical evidence of their experiment being true or false.
If you really wanted to discount their findings, you'd be organizing an experiment of your own.
If you just want to prove you're better than any given swf, go get on discord and find some opponents. There's tons of them dedicated to playing in swf, and there's a lot of players out there that are better than most of the depip squad.
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"Your quest for some sort of rematch is simply for your own benefit and has nothing to do with trying to show any sort of empirical evidence of their experiment being true or false."
Thats Marth 😀 because swf with comms proves nothing.If he really wanted to prove something he would do it with any team.
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That's probably why they did it with comms and without. Killers did worse vs perked with no comms. On occasions where they played with comms and perks, like during nightly warm-ups, killer were absolutely thrashed. Either one is strong on its own, both together are incredibly strong. The whole point was based on the strength of Survivors who play together in an organized fashion and how far beyond groups of solos that placed them in terms of power. So not sure what you're trying to argue... That somehow using swf to show that swf are vastly superior to solo when they bother to use the advantages swf gives is not the proper way to demonstrate exactly that?
Either way, arguing with me on here isn't going to advance your dream of facing down THE Marth in a fight to the death, and there's really many better players you could go up against to prove your studliness.
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Marth relies on his team thats a fact.
He s not doing any favour to community he s not showing the game balance he s just a competitive dbd player. The only thing he proved that organised team on comms will destroy any random casual killer.
If you really want to see the real skilled killer vs skilled survivors on comms you can find it somewhere on the internet or just ask any tournament players about that. Its not how the Marth describes it really(that killers stand no chance against good survivors).
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You can watch this 500$ tournament review . Russian team took first place and you can clearly see how skilled killers can dominate over teams with comms. Marth was just up against random casual killers that were not even expecting a sweaty match. There were also nurses that lost with ebony mories 😂
A few other games from tournaments:
Post edited by Reborn2020 on1 -
Again, the experiment was specifically addressing the live environment, not a tournament where ALL players expect the worst, and further - tournaments have specific rules that are required to be followed that don't exist in regular play.
Once again, you are arguing a point that is completely outside the points that were being addressed. It's like you're trying to say running a formula 1 car in a stock car race is fine because formula 1 cars are all equal when they race together.
Aside from that, you're once again trying to argue that a single example of a game is somehow more statistically significant than 300 games.
At this point, there's really nothing more to say to you. You're either purposely obtuse, or have some weird chip on your shoulder, or I don't even know what. Either way, you refuse to actually address what you say you're arguing. You're unwilling to generate your own evidence for your opinion, and you seem to think that simply trying to move the goal posts counts as a refutation. 1 more game doesn't add anything to the statistics already gathered, and that sort of thinking leads to there always being one more necessary to convince you of something you'll never actually accept anyway.
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A loser that lost to russian team and dont compete in tournaments anymore because of that
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Yes, for one simple reason.
If the survivors stay spread out and do gens the killer is toast (in most cases).
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Looking at games I've played lately from ######### side of the stick and as survivor it is worse then it used to be.
Sure, many survivors are playing like lego legless legolasses but many actually can play the game and hold m1 aaand game ends in 3 minutes. Bucket of fun.
I did have few games where killers just gave up as almost at the same time as they hooked their first survivor 4 gens were done.
Sorry but argument: Not everyone plays like that isn't really valid in here.
This was actually my experience playing Deathslinger for first few days. Fast queues as killer, game done in 4 minutes as survivors love to test their m1'ing. Not a very fun way to play imo but with these lazy devs I'm way beyond hoping for changes to come ever.
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Pretty valid to me. He played plenty of games and recorded them all for everyone to see
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A live environment that doesn't have skill based matchmaking or ranking.
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Those were random killers dude. Watch tournament games with both sides being equal and you can see how killers were doing well even when exhaustion perks were op and old ds was the thing.
Like i already said: In Marth expreriments they were facing random killers and there Nurses that lost with ebony mori.
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No. It's not valid. It's not even the same game as when he conducted his experiment. I would love for a group of survivors to step forward and give it a go though. I'd be interested in the results. But this is the kind of thing that needs to be done on a regular basis for it to have any merit. Think about all the things that have changed. The very metric for whether a killer pips has changed!
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Marth experiment was against potato killers.Watch some of the tournament games i posted above on this very page.
Also watch this :
Old Freddy that was cosidered "the weakest killer" by community gets easy 4 kills in hands of skillful killer.
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What are you saying? I dont get it. Live enviroment should be the case when you balance things around? Not high level play from both sides?
Tournament most of the times has rules that prevents both sides from using cheese playstyle.
And i like how you ignoring most of things i said.
A single example?No. I gave you plenty. And you can watch even more.
Watch this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPm6XaOVxKs
"The weakest killer" with 3 perks gets 4 kills when 3 survivors are on several gens. Ironically its Spudbar from Depip Squad. Also it was when exhaustion perks were regenerating while in run.
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I personally think it's a little weird, that people are still using it as an argument 2 years later, yes the results might be similar, especially after this unnecessary ruin nerf but still, it's been 2 years and a lot of changes for both sides.
Im general I'm skeptical what those experiments prove, because I don't think that someone argued that SWF is strong (and even without comms, they know how they play with each other so it's not really comparable to solo), but most SWF won't do as good as marth did, despite the advantages.
Scott had a 32 win streak with speed limiter leatherface and 50 games win streak with Oni, fungoose had a more than 100 4ks win streak with plague. What conclusion should we draw from that? Oni op or Plague op? Or just that Scott and Fungoose are a lot better than the average players?
I just think, that data from from players that are pretty good can't be used to balance for the average player. If the Devs want to do that they would probably need to balance differently for higher ranks, but that is not possible unless dbd gets a good ranking system and rank rewards.
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Lol the marth hate.
Someone wanting to disprove his experiment by recreating it will not be able to do so by playing SWF.
"Hey look, i lost a lot, totally not Intentionally, I swear. Btw nerf killers, too op"
Oh no, he was SWF'ing with people he knows and some general guidelines? MOST SURVIVORS PLAY SWF and those guidelines are common sense lol.
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Okay. I guess you are right to some extent . Still "depip squad vs random killers" is not high level play. Watch tournament games above and do conclusions from there. Thats the best thing to balance game from as both sides are high level play.
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The Tournaments I have seen have had artificial rules imposed on them in order to make the game even remotely balanced and even then, all you see in tournaments is Nurse, Hillbilly ,Spirit and perhaps another killer once every blue moon that is usually steam rolled a few minutes later. What does that tell you about the state of the game?
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I dbe very pleased if you would provide those games. As far as i know every tournament allows survivors to use comms which also gives them huge advantage but no matter that people manage to get kills even as low tier killers.
Here are few games i posted :
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Unfortunately the games I had in mind were the SpaceEsports tournaments on twitch from a few months ago, the VODs have since expired.
As to your examples, I cannot go through all of them but from what I can gather most of them are resumed in survivors failing to rush generators.
In the second video during the first game with Hillbilly you can see Claudette trying to save the Dwight being camped which resulted in a grab, throwing the game then and there.
The other games were similar, the first video you provided with Hag, the second match has the survivors 3 gen themselves with a hooked person at the centre of the 3 gen, while the first has a Nea do nothing and just run after the Hag for roughly 2 minutes, an entire generator could have been done in that time and another would be well on its way.
The first game with Huntress, the first person used the speed burst to run into an open area without pallets, then once unhooked proceeded to run past a pallet into an LT wall, this resulted in an relatively early kill and all went downhill from there, despite that they still managed to do 4 generators by the time the killer had their second hook.
The second game with Clown from the last video, the Jake decided to sit in a corner and then they wasted the speed burst from being hit by vaulting a window which caused them to go down when someone else was already on hook, then the Nea decided to self care while being affect by Coulrophobia instead of working on a generator, that match was just a mess.
Those were very poor plays by the survivors which enabled the killer to gain more than 1 kill by the end of the match.
I understand that your issue with the Depip Squad experiment is that they are very skilled players, which creates a constant, but the killers are random and many of them may not be all that good. However, the matches you provided have the opposite problem, the killer is playing as well as they can while survivors are sub-optimal. In the end, the Depip squad is the better standard by the principle of time, they proved how fast generators can progress compared to how quickly chases end under optimal survivor performance and that performance shows that aside from a few killers such as Nurse or outlier circumstances such as being caught in a dead zone, the ability of the survivor to maintain chase by looping, chaining pallets, utilising things such as god windows among other things such as items and second chance perks will take the killer's skill level out of the equation entirely.
Just think about it, the difference between a good or bad Wraith will be negligible if all survivors they attempt to chase run to something such as the Ironworks god window upon being hit, the same is not true for survivors who will suffer a great penalty in performance if even one of their numbers cannot play well and goes down immediately. This same idea of the god loop applies to nearly all loops (to a lesser extent, example: a Jungle gym cannot really be dealt with if the survivor does not take risks and just holds corners, you just try to eat the pallet as early as possible and go on) The one kind of loops I can see being different are long-wall-short-walls and their like, in which the corners are too short to hold and it is pretty much a 50/50 with the red light mindgame.
Conclusion: The inability for the killer to overcome basic game mechanics such as windows/pallets regardless of individual skill level creates a rift between generator repair time relative to chase time resulting in survivors completing their objectives much faster than the killer is capable of competing with. This is on the principle of time alone.
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No
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