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Marth experiment is valid or not?
Comments
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Killers also played bad and did some mistakes . The proof here is that even high level make mistakes which means its hard to not do mistakes when killer plays good. Also its Clown (the weakest killer)with three perks vs survivors with exhaustion perks recovering while on the run. Anyway you make good points as well but admit that: marth experiment against random killers is stupid ( nurses with ebony mori end games with 1 kill lol).
Killers are harder to play than survivors because of first person perspective but that is irrelevant.
"However, the matches you provided have the opposite problem, the killer is playing as well as they can while survivors are sub-optimal"
what?why?
Its easy to say what you did wrong when you watch the game afterwards .
Post edited by Reborn2020 on0 -
The only Nurses who won against them were the ones with add-ons for Omega Blink and 3+ blinks with an Ebony Mori on top of them ( which were agreed by almost everyone to be broken and in need of a nerf ).
I didn't saw any base kit Nurse even challenging the Depip Squad, let alone winning.
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Everyone makes mistakes I understand that but those in particular were incredibly banal for survivors of the highest level which leads me to believe that they were either not trying their hardest or were not dedicated survivor players.
The first Claudette on the Hillbilly match should have just left the teammate to die on hook, it is known that when a killer camps a survivor you should just rush gens, especially if it is an instadown killer such a Hillbilly who will one hit you off the hook which makes trading impossible.
The three gen situation could have been avoided by simply having survivors scatter through the map
although I have done the same before so I rest my case.The Nea running along with the Hag is just illogical, the Nea is not accomplishing anything, for those 2 minutes it might as well not have been in the match, if you are not being chased there is no reason not be on a generator and much less reason to be running after the killer.
The Claudette on the Huntress game made the same mistake twice, which is passable I suppose but still.
The Jake and Nea of the Clown game (Oh boy) Jake could have easily ran to a safer corner to hold or just ran away from the area entirely, they literally just sat still crouching at a doorway and then proceeded to waste the speed burst from the hit not only with a vault but with a vault into a drop, that pretty much nullified the entire burst and ensured that it would go down not long after. The Nea, same principle as the other Nea, wasting time, healing is often wasteful, especially with Self-Care which heals even slower, with Coulrophobia added upon it which makes it even slower. It is mostly accepted that Self Care is the best killer perk due to having survivors sit in a corner doing nothing for extended amounts of time and there we have the Nea doing that and more with the help of Coulrophobia. Nea should just have been on a generator.
May I note how the Feng also had Self-Care?1 -
its a tournament and you saying that they werent trying their best? Those 2 teams are both known around tournament player and they both really on high level play with thousand hours behind . You know what they were supposed to do because you watching the game you not participating in it and i like how you just being biased towards survivors. Like that first Hag that got 2 kills on survivor sided map could easily get third guy if he would play smarter . See i can say that too?
And im not even saying that killers have upper hand in this game. All im saying that this Marths opinion is clearly wrong " We as killers are just lucky that survivors are boosted apes".
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Your point is that omega blink nurse with ebony is balanced?
Watch marth games as nurse on tournaments . He compete with tournament level players without any addons not even mentioning Mori and doing good.
If you know Depip Squad tournament history you would see that their are not just "killer mains" they had only one loss on tournaments against top tier russian team against whom they lost and ditched tournaments play at all.
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I literally said these things were agreed to be broken and were nerfed accordingly besides Mori. So you really need to read my comments more carefully.
What I said it wasn't broken was old base kit Nurse, as I never saw one winning against them.
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Why would people think tournaments are valid in a game with RNG map layouts? One team can get pallet galore and the other can get empty fields.
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Its funny how you telling me to read carefully but you cant read this " RANDOM KILLERS"
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The only such map that comes to mind would be that big nurse map. As for other map its not that big of a deal in my opinion.
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I see so many variations in almost every map. The only map with super static pallets seem to be the indoor ones.
Take the Thompson house for example, or even a killer-sided map like wreckers yard. I have seen some absolutely disgusting set-ups one time, like multiple jungle gyms into the cow tree into shack, and basically worthless set-ups in others; like some empty windows and short wall pallets.
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Depip Squad also played against Blinky Bill's Nurse, RyanPez's Billy and Scott Jund's Huntress. Are these also "random killers" to you ?
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Other than some QoL changes, you're not wrong. Even though it was entirely sarcastic.
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They should redo it, I bet survivors perform even better. The point is to prove the balance is messed up and we need a loudly publicized study since so many deny it. The Nurse was actually playable in the original experiment; I'm confident she's the worst killer after her nerf
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Ok buddy :)
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I don't think the most significant are killer nerfs, both sides have their fair share of changes whether it be power increases or decreases.
Please, check the patch notes and don't give misinformation that fits your narrative — it doesn't further the discussion at all.
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Yes, it is easier to analyse small mistakes when you are watching. Those were not small mistakes.
You do not require a brain of a genius to realise that the Nea should not have been running after the killer for 2 minutes. You, as the player, can very well see that you are not doing anything in that situation, that is a very obvious mistake with an equally obvious solution: cease running after the killer and search for a generator.
The self care situation with the team of the Clown game: Self-Care is a waste of time. That should have been known before the match even began, I really do not understand why they were using it.
The Jake of the same game: Again, it is common knowledge that when hit you should use the speed burst to gain as much distance as possible while running to a safe area with a pallet or window or both. Instead, for some reason, Jake decided to vault a window that was just in front of the Clown, barely gaining any distance, plus that window led to a drop of which the stagger denied the rest of the speed burst that was not denied by the vault, then the lack of any nearby assets led them to go down. That is a lack of basic map knowledge and game mechanics.
The Claudette of the Huntress game: We could just say that person had a bad game, everyone makes mistakes.
The Claudette of the Hillbilly game: It should have left the teammate to die. You should not try to save against an instadown killer who is camping the hook, you can just picture how that will go in your head and immediately disregard that idea.
The three gen: Easily avoided, simply tell people to scatter to different areas of the map.
As to the last remark about the killer: Yes, they could have played better, but they did not and the survivors still managed to get themselves killed.
I would say from personal experience that most survivors are indeed not all that great, but that might simply stem from the ranking system being absolute garbage and matching me with whoever while also assigning them to a rank where they do not belong. Even in competitive games such as Overwatch the highest rankings are composed of about 1% of the game's population.
Conclusion: Most survivors are not good players, but that is the nature of every game and everything.
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Which proves that the game is imbalanced? Not just those players were better?
Like i said Depip Squad were competitive dbd players and they had only one loss in tournament games.
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What Nea? Against Hag ? Yes of course tournament players just did mistakes which led them to loss. If you think that you re so good yourself why wont you show us how you would do that?
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The game is indeed still unbalanced because of bad map design and fast gen speed, so I don't know what you're talking about.
Post edited by Marcus on0 -
Only regarding the nurse games: I watched every single game they played against nurse. The level of play from all but 1, maybe 2 of these nurse players wasn't even close to red rank skill. It was like pros against beer leaguers. Just based on that I don’t put much stock in the rest of the experiment.
That said, while much in the game has changed, the fact that survivors are able to end games quickly has not.
The major issue with the game (besides maps), is that one mistake or misplay by the killer means a loss against competent survivors (or even incompetent survivors if they just spread out and one survivor has a good first chase).
While I definitely respect the effort out into the experiment, what I'd really like to see is one great red rank killer going against 4 great red rank survivors. That would actually show the game's imbalance.
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Honestly it depends on how you look at it. The original experiment proved that if you put 4 very good and coordinated survivors against most killers the killer loses. But these are also fringe cases. So many things have changed since then it's hard to say that it's still valid. Though I'd guess the results would be pretty similar today.
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I did explain how it should be done based on logic, but if you insist I will do so again.
The Nea on the Hag game should have stopped running after the killer for absolutely no reason and gone to a generator.
The Claudette on the Hillbilly game should have left their teammate to die. Really, you do not save in the face of an instadown killer and expect it to go well.
The survivor team on the other Hag game should have scattered to opposing ends of the map to avoid a 3 gen.
The team of the Clown game should not have equipped self care, neither should they have used it instead of repairing generators.
The Jake of the same game, they should have either held a better corner with longer walls (the fence of the church that was just to the side would probably do) or ran away from the area, instead they sat in a doorway and gave the killer a free hit. They should also have just ran in a straight line to a pallet or window far away after being hit instead of taking a vault next to the killer which led into a drop that wasted the speed burst.
The Claudette of the Huntress game should not have ran past pallets into unsafe areas/tiles. But again, this is by far the smallest mistake out of these and can be partially attributed to map RNG.
As I said, I understand that people make mistakes, but aside from the Claudette I listed just above, none of them are small mistakes. They are painfully obvious mistakes that could have been avoided by simply picturing the scenario in your head and making a decision based on that.
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Nea were not supposed to disarm all Hag traps? Seems like you dont know how strong Hag is going to be if you dont do that. You just proved how little you know.
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BLEH HEH.
Ah, yes, the Nea will disarm the Hag traps with a Med-Kit while the Hag is chasing the Meg and thereby will not be placing any traps of particular importance.
Besides, if you need disarm the traps, you should run to all nearby traps while the Hag is picking up a survivor, then they cannot teleport to any of them and lose all map pressure as they are activated.
You did not even bother to check the game and jumped to insulting someone's knowledge while just jumping past the other points, I do try to be civilised but you do not seem to be inclined to change your view or to provide any constructive argument of your own.
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Gen speeds are fine for killers that can apply pressure on gens. Gens gets done in 80 seconds only if survivors CONSISTENTLY sit on those gens.
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I provided a few in this thread.Easy to find.
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If you think that you re so good yourself why wont you show us how you would do that?
Instead of pointing out other high level players mistakes ?
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I literally just said what they, I and anyone should do. Many times over.
1: Get on a generator, do not run after the killer for no reason.
2: Go to 1.
3: That is it really.
And if the problem is the traps as you have said (And it is not, because they cannot even deactivate them, but hey, you jumped past that point too) you activate those that you can while the Hag picks up a survivor.
I do not understand how or why you are trying to justify that play. Allow me to ask a question for a change: How is the Nea running after the Hag while the Hag is chasing Meg, and as such occupied, of any help of the team at all? Is it not obvious that you are not doing anything? What is that performance accomplishing? Nothing.
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I already said . If someone else will justify what you re saying then i will bother to argue.
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You never once said that to me. And you should not need another person to justify my claims, I justified them myself. Many. Times. Over.
When arguing with a person you discuss with them directly, not with someone who is not even involved in the conversation, and if there was someone else I gather that if they agreed with me you would ignore their points as you did mine, and if they agreed with you then you would just claim that I do not know anything as you did before without actually providing an argument.
Your refusal to provide an argument only shows that you do not have one.
I am done here. This is like talking to a wall and expecting it to move.
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There is no point in arguing with him. If he legitimately thinks that a Claudette trying to unhook someone against a camping Hillbilly is representative of high level play then there is nothing you can say that will convince him of anything. For some reason, he believes that the game has to be balanced around survivors playing against handpicked killers with custom tournament rules despite the fact that it's impossible to play the game this way unless you're in a custom game. He's legitimately arguing that it's okay for a survivor to run around and follow the killer all game, I mean seriously? What could you possibly say to convince someone when they're thoughts about how the game is played are so wildly off base?
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this "Nea were not supposed to disarm all Hag traps? Seems like you dont know how strong Hag is going to be if you dont do that. You just proved how little you know."
How you suggest to play against Hag. Disarm her traps when she picks someone up?How many traps you d disarm with that playstyle?
Why you didnt comment on the rest of the games ? Dont have anything to say?
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Watch the rest of the games . Im not saying it wasnt a big mistake.
Or i guess you already watched and you found only one game where you could point out something valid?
Again. Lets start with first game. Killer is hag . Both killers did good on SURVIVOR SIDED map aganst high level SWF on COMMS, exhaustion perks recover on the run plus old DS . And as you like to say if first hag wouldnt do MISTAKE and would ignore that pallet she would noed third survivor and get three kills. What you have to say?
But at the same time you saying the game should be balanced around TOP SURVIVORS that you meet once a year? I dont play killer on regular basis but i can count on my fingers how many times i lost to survivors this year.
How do you play against Hag? You sit on gens and do nothing to disarm her traps?
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Okay, let's look at the first game then. The Hag hooked someone in the basement and they literally got one-hooked because the obnoxious Meg that wasn't doing anything productive saw where the Hag placed her trap yet didn't think to crouch by it. If this game took place before you could crouch around Hag traps (unlikely but possible) then the downed survivor seriously screwed over their team by getting downed near the basement. That is 100% their fault and a horrible, HORRIBLE play. Later, we can see from the Hag's perspective that there was a lit up hex totem right next to the gen that the survivors were working on. How does that even happen??? Are the survivors just blind or deaf or both, the hex was literally creating light that was visible from the other side of the wall and none of them thought to cleanse it. The Meg ran away from several amazing pallets and loops that would have either forced the Hag to break the pallet or forced her to place a trap, which gave the Hag free hits. Those are just a handful of very simple yet horrible mistakes that were made, and that's WITH all the crazy stuff that survivors had at the time. And that's only in the first game. Yikes. If the devs looked at games like these for balance, killers would get nerfed to oblivion.
I'm not saying the game should be balanced around the best of the best swf groups, I'm saying it should be balanced around survivors that know how to stay on gens and aren't absolutely terrible at looping. If you're at red ranks and fail at one of these then you shouldn't be at red ranks, much less playing in a tournament.
Yes, I do sit on gens and do nothing to disarm her traps. The map is enormous and if she can't teleport to you, she's a basic m1 killer with 110% movement speed. There is no reason why 3 gens shouldn't pop by the time the Hag can even walk to the gens after hooking someone. Additionally, if everyone is on a different gen then that's AT LEAST 3 tiles that everyone knows for sure haven't been trapped, they're on Coldwind so that should be about 5 or more tiles without traps that everyone knows about because they're on comms. Later in the match, if there's a tile that I'm unsure about then I can run through it real quick to see if it's been trapped while the Hag is carrying someone or busy across the map. All of this is very doable when playing solo and incredibly easy when playing on comms yet this team still failed at it, lol.
I could go out of my way to pick at huge mistakes in every one of the games you shared, but it's a waste of time. If a team is losing against a slow killer on enormous maps with all of the advantages survivors had at the time then that should speak bounds about the quality of the tournament games you're sharing.
I don't care how many games you claim to have lost this year, it means nothing to me. I'm not saying this to be mean. Either you don't play this game often or you're literally a god at this game or you're lying, it doesn't matter because it isn't a valid argument. It's curious though, if you're the amazing red rank killer that you imply you are then how are you unable to recognize how bad those tournament games are?
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Show me that. When that occured?When she saw that trap placement?
So you saying those players are trash tier?
Im providing the game for you here for you and the ones who may be interested to watch and analyze it as well.
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I'll pick apart this video. At 2:30 the Nea is still able to see the Hag when she stopped to place traps. At 3:15 the Nea activates one of the traps despite knowing that the Hag slowed down to place traps earlier. At 3:50 the Nea ran away from several amazing pallet loops. The Hag didn't break any of those pallets and didn't place a single trap at any of those loops yet the Nea still ran away from them and scored the Hag a free hit. Notice while this chase is happening that the teammate has already hit second stage and no one is going to save her. Also notice that despite over 3 minutes having passed, only 2 gens are done. The Hag has only chased 2 survivors so far, so what are the other 2 survivors doing? Either they can't hit Ruin skillchecks or someone is running around looking for Ruin. This definitely doesn't suggest high level play either way. At 4:18 you can see a lit up totem next to a generator that is being worked on. Yikes. At 4:38 the hooked survivor died and was thus one-hooked despite the killer not camping them. I have never even seen this happen in solo queue, it should never be happening in a tournament game. At 5:06 Nea attempts to bodyblock for Feng and then just randomly stops, letting the Feng go down and get hooked. The Nea could have been working on a gen but decided to mess around instead. At 5:45 Claudette sprint bursted yet still managed to be in range of the Hag. This was just horrible movement, she did not have to get hit there at all. At 6:16 Hag finds Nea. Nea could have unhooked her teammate with all the time the Hag spent with the Claudette and placing traps and breaking the gen but nope, she was just chilling out the whole time that was happening I guess. At 7:30 Feng ran to a tile where the pallet was broken, this is just incredibly poor communication on her teams part. The Nea failed to bodyblock properly earlier while the Feng was two-hooked and either didn't have DS or she missed the skillcheck and she dies on hook. We find out later that the Hag was using PWYF! Do you know why this is significant? The Nea was feeding her stacks of PWYF the entire game. Every time the Nea showed up in front of the Hag to either get her attention or fail a bodyblock, she gave her a stack. Despite how poorly these survivors played, they still managed to finish all the gens with Ruin up and 2 people escaped! Imagine how poorly this would have turned out for the Hag if the survivors actually played well.
The next match is just embarrassing. The Hag hardly got anything done at all and it looked like an easy win for the survivors up until the point where there was only 1 gen left to do and... the survivors somehow managed to 3 gen themselves on Coldwind. Against Hag. The first survivor gets one-hooked (again), the second survivor gets two-hooked and tunneled out of the game after getting unhooked (again), and the Hag just wins from there because of the 3 gen. Oddly enough, the survivors could have gotten themselves out of that 3 gen pretty easily by crouching up the stairs to the gen upstairs or when the Hag left the 3 gen after slugging the third guy. In fact, the last 3 survivors could have just ditched the gens entirely and looked for a key to escape via hatch if they wanted to. However, the easiest solution is to simply not let Hag get the 3 gen. It didn't look like she was trying especially hard to secure that endgame 3 gen, it could have very easily been avoided and it definitely SHOULD have been avoided considering that they're on comms.
And that is my long observation of the video. The survivors didn't play well, but the killer didn't do all too well either. Granted, I think Hag did okay considering the map she was playing on but the survivors played very, very poorly. I definitely don't think this is at all representative of even red rank play and this definitely isn't gameplay I would look at when balancing the game.
Please don't misunderstand my intentions with this, I didn't make this comment to undermine or berate anyone. This simply isn't representative of high level play, that's all. Marth's depip squad is a lot more in line with what I expect from a good swf group. Even if you want to argue that survivors playing in solo queue is fine, the game is definitely not balanced with swf in mind because 4 survivors playing optimally is crazy to go against and pops up more frequently than you imply.
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If Nea would crouch to get a save wasting so much time hag would still get to basement cause she was already there . You missed that?
Depip Squad is a lot more in line with what you expect from good swf group ? Because they didnt record the rounds where they get dominated. Have you seen tournament of them against tournament monsters?
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The Nea actually did have time to crouch and get the save, if you actually looked at the video or even my timestamps you can literally count how much time she had. Even in the worst case scenario, they could have simply traded and that would have given the team plenty of time to finish gens. Alternatively, if the Nea was so confident in looping that she would follow the killer around the map then why didn't a teammate go for the save while Nea had her distracted? Even if the team would lose some momentum with only one person working on a gen, as long as they got away from the basement they would have been fine. Letting a teammate get one-hooked is definitely not the play.
They didn't record the rounds they got dominated? Yikes, did you even watch any of the games they played because it sounds like you're just making stuff up now. They played on stream, they literally didn't have the option of not recording games even if they wanted to.
Again, tournaments don't mean much. They make their own custom rules; that alone makes tournament games mostly irrelevant when looking at balance in this game. That aside, just because matches have the word "tournament" on them doesn't mean they're high quality games, and I think I more than proved that point in my earlier comment.
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If you know those teams and how consistently they compete in tournaments and win it does say much in their favour.
In that game they sold him out while Nea tried to get hag in a chase to let others gen rush as long as possible.
Depip Squad played against random killers lol. I can do the same in public games and scream out loud " Killers are op".
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Conclusion: the game is imbalanced because there s a best of the best swf team on comms that wont do any mistake eventualy. Nice.
Post edited by Reborn2020 on0 -
You dont even know that hag can teleport to her traps if she has certain addon so you only proving how little you know about the game...
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Marth knows his experiment holds no weight anymore. Look how many times he did Killer Hardcore challenges but he hasn't attempted a single survivor hardcore challenge. Says alot....
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Scott piped against them though, killed two people.
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Oh that experiment which proved that 4 high ranked DBD players with +4.000 hours who sweat a lot during their matches against random killers could win most of their games? And not a lot of killers did it, but they still managed to win against them so it wasn't impossible to face this team at the end of the day, extremely hard and stressful yes, but not impossible. I think a Billy or Nurse with a good build and who sweat a lot could win against them if they wanted to.
Marth also went from rank 20 to rank 1 as perkless Wraith, and it was back when this game still had pallet vacuum, old exhaustion, old DS, A LOT of pallets, old Self Care, old BNPs, old InstaHeals, Old quick vault feature, (i'm not gonna mention every change survivors had since then but you got it). Funny how 2020 Killer mains never mention this.
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Piped against a perkless team and he needed to face camp his second kill when gates were already open.
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Old swamp was kind of a bad map for huntress and facecamping when the gates are open is normal, there isn't much what a killer can do, in that situation.
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I didn't say that he shouldn't face camp when gates were open, my point was that he needed to done it in order to secure his second kill.
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He had three of them down at some point, I think he just played safe to get the pip (patrolling Marth, camping in the end etc.). And like I said, it wasn't a good map for him.
In general I think the experiment is interesting but not helpful: Everybody knows, survivors are stronger than killers, especially SWF, so the question is, how much are they stronger and what to do about that. As far as I know all of the depip squad are very good players with a lot of hours so of course you expect them to win most of the games, Scott is also a good player, so he could somewhat keep up with them (yes the match would have looked different if they had perks, but than again it would have also looked different in a better map so in the end it's only speculation.) So I feel like the experiment proved one point: Good players playing the stronger side will win most of the time. But the majority of players is far from Marth's skill level, so you can't balance around the best players, especially not with the current bad matchmaking. Marth has a relativly recent video of 60 4k with the clown, a killer that is generally considered to be weak, so you shouldn't expect him to win many games in a row. What does that prove? That Clown is too strong? I think it just proves, that a good player can win a lot of games even in the weeker side, because the majority of players is just mediocre.
Dbd has a lot of balance problems that they need to be fixed, but looking on streaks on very good players, that don't represent the majority of the playerbase, is not the way to go in my opinion.
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Watch how depip squad lost to a better team.
Killer can also take perks to prolong the game . Right now there are plenty of perks that makes killer really strong.
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Marth is done. I think he knew how finely balanced this game is if both sides are good he just did that to become popular i guess. Anyway i dont like Marth because he talk about balance of the game while he had only a few games against good players. If he would compete in tournaments right now and try to prove his point i may believe he has a point but he dont after he lost once in that tournament above? Cant take pressure against same level player i guess.
He also refused to do another experiment against same killer. He said he needs his old team .
You dont need your old team to prove the games imbalance. Nobody is trying to outbest you as a player....
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