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Hex ruin nerf was unjustified
It only hurt low rank survivors or survivors that couldn’t hit skillchecks well. You devs need to revert ruin back to the way it was originally (affecting skill checks but other slowdown perks should not apply while ruin is active e.g pop,corrupt,surveillance,discordance,etc) old ruin was perfectly balanced and old ruin wasn’t a problem as as survivors reached red ranks and practiced in kyf they would know that ruin was fine.
please devs fix the game :) and stop catering to bad survivors and let them have to git gud just like we have to.
Comments
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I actually prefer new ruin to old ruin. I don't have to kick gens anymore and gen tapping is worthless. Ever gone up against a well organized swf group and have them run around and tap the gen to stop the regression? It's annoying. Old ruin was unreliable. Sometimes, when playing survivor, I would complete a gen on my own without ever getting a single skill check. I do wish that new ruin got rid of great skill check zones, though. Then it would affect everyone regardless of player skill level.
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On paper it was an overpowered perk that was obviously better than almost any other perk besides maybe BBQ. In practice it was a band-aid for genrush and when behavior removed that band-aid the genspeed blood gushed out and now killer playercount is bleeding to death.
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Bit late to the party, you must be using Internet Explorer
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New Ruin ia healthier for the game. You just have to learn to not lean into a specific perk.
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Is that why all my matches are rainbow survivors? It’s been wild, I’m sure it’s not as fun for experienced people either to watch killers club low players.
i actually like new ruin though, genrushing doesn’t bother me
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Stop stealing my analogies :)
It's not about "leaning into a specific perk" it's about the fact that perk was holding back a tsunami of other problems, mainly the egregious issues with map design.
If the ruin change had come with reworks of the worst maps I would agree with you.
In this case, the cart is ahead of the horse so to speak.
Ruin was critical for trap-based and setup killers (think Myers) to get some setup before generators started popping. Corrupt Intervention is a mediocre replacement at best. Killers who ran Ruin never expected it to last longer than 1-2 minutes, but that was long enough to get a couple chases done and hooks accomplished so they could begin to snowball assuming they were playing well.
In the game's current state, I think it's debatable whether the change was actually healthy for the game. Instead of killers relying on a perk, instead we just have fewer viable killers who can actually "pressure gens bro" enough to be effective.
You don't think it's coincidence that the four killers considered "meta" happen to all be killers that have cross-map pressure? Either through teleportation (Freddy), Chainsaw Sprint (Billy), Phase Walk (Spirit), or Blinks? (Nurse). You notice none of those trap based or setup based killers in that list? That's because by the time they even get going 40% of the objectives are completed at least.
I find it hilarious that survivors complain about seeing the same killers over and over in high ranks without coming to the (seemingly to me) obvious conclusion that the reason you see the same four is because right now, those are the only four survivors who can counter the gen rush on every map if played correctly.
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good thing they dont need justification then huh?
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the change was needed.
though i wont deny that the time they implemented it in was very poorly chosen - they should have waited until they came up with an actual good change to the Survivors objective times.
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Well, the thing is that it's something that the player can do, and something I did myself.
Peanits and Almo did also say that they needed to look at the statistics WITHOUT Ruin used in 90% of all games.
As for the killer "meta", I believe that they have a problem with their priorities. Most of them tend to base the "meta" around the ease of a 4k, rather than the emblem system. Both are inherently flawed approaches, but emblems mean rank. Hillbilly is technically TERRIBLE to rank up, considering the "proper" way to play him. Legion is fantastic, since you can do so many hits, amd force people to waste time with mending but is widely considered a weak killer.
Skill check related perks are an inherently flawed approach, since they are so random to generate, or in the case if old Ruin, punish certain types of players for not having an optimised PC rig, such as console players, who the chance of actually hitting a Great skill check is pot luck half the time. They (myself included) were one of the loudest voices against the old version of ruin.
As a Pig main, I highly understand the importance of old Ruin and it's stall potential, but this change has forced me to adapt and grow. I therefore welcome it.
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The thing that angers me about the Ruin nerf is that killers received no compensation for the nerf.
When toolboxes were nerfed, they received an increase in gen speed.
Ruin was nerfed, and that was that.
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I like how before ruin nerf, no one actually came up with a logical reason as to why ruin needed a nerf, literally no one. It was all "ruin op pls nerf" by some baby green and yellow ranks. Now when the Devs announced ruin was going to be nerfed, suddenly all the arse kissers started writing a plethora of essays as to how ruin nerf was needed and was somehow healthy for the game.
These are the facts, I respect personal opinions, as we all have the right to them, but these facts cannot be disputed:
-The only people who complained about ruin could not consistently hit hex skill checks, and had trouble finding the hex totem itself.
What does this mean?
It means that low skilled players, or players who simply could not adapt to ruin, decided to praise the devs when the perk that had the most counterplay to it got nerfed. Old ruin had so much counterplay, I mean the perk itself offered counterplay by providing easy skill checks ffs, as if destroying the actual perk wasn't enough. People couldn't adapt to the perk, they disregarded the existing counter play and decided to complain in the back alleys of reddit. And the Devs decided that was important feedback, complaints from a minority of the fanbase, aka baby green and yellow ranks, instead of the majority of the community, aka survivors and killers alike who weren't biased and understanded that ruin was a necessary band aid.
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Need I remind you they are the same people who nerfed to the ground the weakest killer in the game because Rank 21s couldn't be bothered to adapt?
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it wasnt a nerf it was a rework , i personally find new ruin more powerful in the right killers build
yes old ruined worked good on all killers but new one work amazingly on killers with good map and gen pressure like demo or doctor or spirit
nothing more annoying than to almost complete 1 gen than the killer force you out of it and in 20 sec its progress is back to 0
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Majority couldnt hit great skillchecks . The game caters to majority get it already.
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Are you blind ? New ruin is better than old ruin for mobile killers and not really good for killers that have no mobility . Either way slow killers cant defend gens that are not close to each other so removal of old ruin only opened their eyes to how actually they should play them.
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you have a full thread by peanits justifying it in the news
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Why cant survivors ever adapt and grow its not the killers fault your rig isn't good enough old ruin for fine
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New ruin is also unreliable, able to do with no skill checks, and everything else you said about old ruin, except that now it's not a detriment to gen work.
Good SWF wouldnt have ruin in existence after 2 mins, so using the tapping while looping argument is a bit of a stretch.
The only change that happened to it and its use, was perk synergy changes, and that now low rank survivors have no reason to fear it.
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Exactly. And if that isnt obvious to anyone, just look at the patch notes regarding ruin.
"Not fun and too frustrating to play against for new survivors".
Yeah, ######### them learning how to actually play the game, right?
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woah get over it already
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Nobody really liked Ruin. Killer or survivor. I think the current Ruin is fine. I'd rather they come up with something to slow the early game a bit. Not a perk. But something that would be a base part of the game.
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Because you can't get better for Xbox than what I've got, and considering I've already spend about $300 Aus in the game, I'm not switching.
Old Ruin was NOT fine because of it. Old Ruin literally punished a majority of console players for playing the game, between slightly choppy frames all the time, controller input delay, and the fact that my TV is at about two meters away from my face, rather than 30cm, saying "Just hit great skill checks" is not a good validation for old Hex Ruin.
I can go into great lengths as well about how newer killers could lean into the perk and be near carried by it, it only being useful against lower ranks and a majority of console players, the devs saying it was covering and skewing important statistics. However, that probably goes against the PC killer bias you have presented. Saying "get a better rig" is also not exactly a good justification either. Not all of us can afford or care to have a high performing gaming PC, maybe some of us prefer the overall guarantee of performance from console gaming and the feel of a controller in our hands.
I am an Xbox player who has a neutral perspective, as I play both sides. In my opinion Hex: Ruin V1 was not a very balanced perk, and it's REWORK was not only better for those who were able to adapt and accomodate it's new use, but it now has it's power accessable over ALL ranks with arguably equal effect. It also synergises better with other perks such as Surveillane and rewards skillful play on the killer's side rather than punishing bad/unlucky play in the survivor's side. Sometimes it is perfectly FINE to not pursue a chase for long to ensure that generators are not being worked on.
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"You devs need to revert ruin back to the way it was originally."
No, they don't need to do anything just because you don't like something. You're not entitled so kindly stop acting like you are please.
The developers have announced before if there's something wrong that needs changing then they will.
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You mentioned it yourself, it only hurt the people who already had a hard time and couldn't hit skill checks, which is the opposite of what you'd want a perk to do. The good survivors would power through it or find the totem in no time, leaving them mostly unaffected.
If it's only working against survivors that can't hit skill checks, I would argue you don't need a perk to help you win against them. You would already have the upper hand if you're a good killer at that point.
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Again, for the record, I wasn't against changing Ruin, I was against changing Ruin and not doing the other work required to make it so losing Ruin was not nearly as devastating to every killer below red ranks.
As someone who hit Rank 1 both before the Ruin rework and after Ruin I can confirm that Ruin was rarely used at higher ranks, and most red rank killers had already adapted, the red rank meta was about using Pop Goes the Weasel and mobile killers for a long time. The Hex: Ruin rework just made that meta the meta for all killers in all ranks. The problem with this is that for newer or less skilled killers their games went from "win some lose some" to "gen rushed in 5 minutes, get good baby killer".
So this off topic to the original point but you bring up the problems with the killer meta and the emblem system. The problem with the killer meta is that there ARE no priorities, at least that I've seen from the developers, nor does there seem to be any unified standard on what is a win, loss, or draw. We get some vague "killers should shoot for 2k" stuff but nothing beyond that. The meta isn't built around who can get a 4k the easiest, it's more who can stall generators long enough to at least get respectable emblem scores and enough kills to pip. As you said Hillbilly is not an easy killer to pip with due to his chainsaw not getting enough extra malicious score points making it almost better to play him as a very mobile M1 killer instead, as opposed to dopey boy Legion who can Feral Frenzy his way to a Safety pip or even sometimes a ruthless just because he frenzied and did meaningless hits all game. However Hillbilly is still considered a very meta killer because he can zoom around and utilize pop goes the weasel, which is objectively the best regression perk in the game now, on priority generators at critical times to slow down progress and stall the game out.
I agree that skill check related perks are not the best, but getting rid of Hex: Ruin and not fixing the problems with maps wasn't helpful either. Again, if Ruin's change comes with map changes I'm not even bringing up the issue.
And yes, some players will improve, I had to go through those growing pains when I first hit red ranks many moons ago because to red rank survivors (at least then) Hex: Ruin was a minor inconvenience and a wasted perk slot I couldn't afford, so I had to adapt, learn to optimize every loop I possibly could, learn to immediately identify priority generators to protect, all that. The problem is that newer killers and those who play setup killers have no ability to get going before the game is halfway over, and that's what causes the killer meta you see now. People don't like getting embarrassed by a five minute game just cause they wanted to play Trapper or Myers.
By all means if reducing map sizes means nerfs to the core four meta killers, that's a fair trade to make everyone at least viable. But until that time, I'm gonna be spamming my Freddy, Hillbilly, and Spirit and survivors can deal with it.
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It was the same for killers as well. Many killers rose through the ranks camping and tunneling with Ruin only to get curb stomped and be boosted killers when they hit higher ranks.
Frankly, I like new Ruin over old. No more gen tapping, and it actually has an effect when I push survivors off of gens at high rank. Old Ruin was a joke in red ranks. New Ruin can at least do something helpful.
Ruin was nothing more than a bandaid to hide the gen issues in mid ranks. Now it is obvious to all. That aside, new Ruin is helping the killers who want to get better learn to not depend upon one tired tactic to get them through.
In all, it is way better in my opinion. If I get good placement and team it with a solid build, I can see the difference.
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Isn't that biased though? You are telling Killers to "git gud", while catering to Survivors that don't even know how the game works yet?
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New ruin is your compensation, it isnt as good as before, but it still does the trick in some killers. Oh, also, are we just gonna ignore the incredible buff doctor got?
Same with toolboxes, they received a buff in speed but overall they are way less useful now and most of the toolbox add-ons are completely trash now.
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I thought that the emblems were something to bring up, especially since Ruin was championed by a lot of killers as one of the few ways to get any sort of decent Gatekeeper, and the unfocused Killer "meta". Never meant for it to be a central topic, but something to still consider.
Peanits did indeed say on his initial Hex: Ruin thread about how they would monitor the statistics and feedback. With a lot of people saying now that map size is the problem, they will probably just slowly rework all the maps to an acceptable level, and THEN look at re-doing the meta 4.
As for new killers, it's a complete stomping on one side or the other. Not normally a balanced result there per game. Something I've noticed with a pair of extra accounts so I don't drag my rank 19 and 20 mates into the firing lines of purple ranked killers.
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I wouldn't say so. Bias would be making a decision like that just because you favour one side over the other, and I can safely say that I play both pretty much equally. Making the game less punishing to a new player who's just trying to learn the game isn't biased, and it's something we would do for both sides. There's already a lot to take in when you're starting to play the game. There's 146 perks and 19 killers on top of basic gameplay, having to also hit a great skill check on top of that is an incredibly steep learning curve. You can't expect new players to suddenly hits greats overnight while also trying to learn everything else, and moreover, you should not have a perk that specifically makes the game harder for them without affecting more experienced players.
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Oh no I wasn't saying it was a useless point to bring up, I just thought it was a little off-topic to the current conversation, but in some ways it does connect, and it is certainly a good topic of discussion in general, maybe I should have been clearer on that, my apologies.
Yeah I do think they will make changes slowly, breakable walls may help, and they will likely slowly rework the most egregious offenders in the terrible map department.
I think lower ranks are killer-sided, I would admit it completely, because when survivors make mistakes in low ranks even baby killers can usually capitalize. But I also think that's why using them as the justification for changes that affect all players at all ranks is flawed.
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Yeah, the problem is here that so many problems here are intertwined. This game is at it's core just so complicated that balancing it must be a nightmare.
A perk like the old version of Hex: Ruin was heavily tied to Gatekeeper, from what a lot of killers were saying on here. They've now moved to map size arguments (which I can agree on for SOME) but it doesn't change the fact that it was something that newer killers could easily rely on, or the issues that I've stated before on other threads regarding it's use on console and it's optimisation. I'm fine with it, except for the occasional lag spike or delayed reaction.
While I did disagree initially with what the rework was, with my own idea literally being slowed generator repairs, I'm not unsatisfied with how the change has gone. If utilised effectively, it can be a devastating perk. I feel though that topics like this are somewhat clouded by nostalgia and some killers refusing to play the game differently from patch to patch.
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I don't think new ruin is better than old ruin. Maybe better for mobile killers but they didn't need it as bad as every other killer. I'm actually surprised there isn't a new survivor tactic involving "don't cleanse ruin" just so the killer can't use PGTW.
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Excellent point. I'm not against the Hex: Ruin changes, I actually like them. Good answer.
How soon will we see a change that makes playing Killer easier and less stressful?
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Indeed, I think the better solution would be a change to gatekeeper, I proposed this in a long thread of my own but the short version is they should change gatekeeper to exactly what it sounds like, how long you protected generators is irrelevant, how long did it take for the gates to open and if they don't open at all, that's an iridescent. That way if a killer is designed to give up some early generators but still win in the end they aren't penalized.
You state that Ruin was a perk for newer killers to rely on, and I agree with you, my contention is was that such a bad thing? Newer killers are unfamiliar with maps, loops, generator protection strategies, all of it, and they are all alone, no teammates to carry them through the game. Ruin to me acted as that early teammate that helped them get established until they got to higher ranks where it didn't work anymore and they had to adjust. Also really it just shifted from everyone using Hex: Ruin to those same killers all using Corrupt Intervention, so not sure how much of the "crutch perk" issue we solved there. Also why is there such a push to change killer crutch perks, while seemingly no push to change the second chance meta of Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, and Adrenaline? I'm just saying let's be fair in this "crutch perk" application lol.
My issue with new Ruin is that it's really only optimal on killers with high map pressure who can chase survivors off multiple generators constantly. Ironically, the killers who can utilize new Ruin the best are killers like Freddy and Hillbilly, who don't really need it. So the tradeoff is we made things even tougher for killers that needed help, setup killers, while making things even easier for killers that didn't need help, high mobility killers.
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Thats bs because survivors lean om bt ds adrenaline and spine chill but those unhealthy perks aren't nerfed into the ground uf you couldn't hit the checks do the bones its that easy didn't have to be nerfed and it was nerfed
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What you just said isn't true.
No matter how good a player might be, no one can consistently hit great skill checks all the time. Most survivors don't want to deal with the hassle, so they inevitably go look for the totem (which of course buys the killer some time to build up early game momentum).
Lastly, a good killer does not have the upper hand against good survivors. The game is heavily stacked against the lower tier killers.
You have to master one of the top tier killers in order for your own skill to truly matter. Not many people are willing to spend hundreds of hours to learn Billy or Huntress.
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Hey, I think I've seen this type of post before. Stay tuned next week for another "Bring back the old Hex Ruin" post.
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Ruin was completely reworked into a diffrent perk not nerfed. Toolboxes are now almost usless unless your a sabo squad. You do realise that if toolboxes didnt get the speed buff when it was nerfed they would do litrally nothing?
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Wish survivors would take that same advice for DS, BT, Adren,. Ruin and BBQ were the 2 main killer diet staples but now many killers are starving. That why there's a huge increase to camp and tunnel and slug plays. Seems ALOT of killers have replaced ruin with NOED to focus more now endgame instead of beginning pressure. Not to mention mori after mori after mori!
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So you explained perfectly fine that Ruin was only a nuisance to new players, not affecting high ranks at all. How did you get to the concluision that it needs a revert then?
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Ok so here's my take on Ruin.
Old Ruin had problems. The biggest problem was that it was tied to skill checks, which are random. That's not particularly great, as any perk that relies on skill checks to get value is... iffy. The other big problem was a psychological one. Having the good skill checks go from being neutral to negative just straight up feels bad. Old Ruin needed some changes.
Here's the thing though.
Survivors are at their weakest when they're on the hook or directly after getting unhooked. How many perks are there in the game that helps themselves or their teammates with that situation? Well the answer is a TON. Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time, Kindred, We'll Make It, Babysitter, Deliverance, Off the Record, Camaraderie, Second Wind... the list literally goes on and on. Now not all of them are great, but there are a TON of them so there are definitely going to be good ones and a variety to pick from. Then... Survivor's second weakest moment is either when they are slugged or when they're getting carried... and guess what? There's a bunch of perks to help with that too. There's even items with flashlights for saving carried people and toolboxes for sabotaging hooks. Survivors are quite literally drowning in options to help patch up their weaknesses.
Now, when are Killers at their weakest? The second they load into the game. They have zero people on hook, zero people down, zero people injured, zero tokens on any of the numerous perks that accrue tokens throughout the game, and they don't even know for sure where any survivors are. How many perks help with that situation? By my count, there are 3... 4 if you really want to stretch it. Corrupt Intervention, Discordance, Whispers, and Thrill of the Hunt. None of them directly deal with the fact that the survivors are going to instantly find and start repairing the nearest generator. Corrupt might make them have to walk further, but that's the closest Killers get to a perk that directly helps them during the weakest part of their game. Then Thrill of the Hunt does not come into play unless someone cleanses something. That is straight up pathetic.
That is also why Old Ruin was so dang popular. Old Ruin is active right from the word go and directly effects Survivors hopping on the generator they spawned in next to. Even against 100% perfect survivors it takes away their bonus progression for Great skill checks and probably sends someone hunting for the darn thing, giving them more time during the part of the game when they need it the most. New Ruin doesn't do that. New Ruin is arguably better in numerous ways than Old Ruin BUT it doesn't fit into the same criminally underpopulated role. That's the problem and that's why talk about Ruin/Gen Rushing/Map Sizes will not stop until things get changed.
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hex ruin was justified 4/5 players now enjoy hex ruin now. Other problems like gen rush,big maps,underpowered killers,killer bugs.... only affect 1/5 players so nothing to worry about
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Good survivors or not, old ruin slowed the game a little at the beginning. Now I can't play Trapper because 3 gens are done before I set 3 traps.
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I would just like to point out that hitting a great skill check is nothing to brag about. And not being able to hit it doesn't mean you're a bad survivor. Actual skill is involved in things like mind games and requires game knowledge, not pressing a button at the exact right time, especially when (on ps4) the game can stutter causing you to miss things you should have hit. The new Ruin rewards killers who can regularly push and keep survivors off gens and forces survivors to make strategic choices between a. staying on a gen to finish it, b. sacrificing progression loss to save teammates, or c. spending time looking for the totem.
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All this energy in this post needs to be pointed at Almo since she openly admitted that she was the mastermind about getting the perk nerfed.
The only thing ruin nerf has done for the game is make killer more stressful to play, and I'm pretty sure BHVR refuses see that they ripped a tourniquet off a blown off limb. Nerfing ruin has done nothing but unbalance the game even further, decreased the killer community even further, and force the killer community to play in a way that is unfun for survivors.
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I disagree. Ruin DID need a change. However, the change they made is questionable at best since it just makes strong Killers stronger, and doesn't really help the lower-tier Killers at all.
Plus it's still a Hex and can be deleted in the first 20 seconds, soooo....
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A perk that can be taken out at the start of the game or just powered through didn't need to be nerfed but survivors got their way again like always
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Are you really that surprised? They've been doing that since day 1 of this game.
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