People loved/hate Legion for the wrong reasons.
I started playing killer only 1 or 2 months ago. Since then, I've seen a little success with The Trapper, The Cannibal, The Shape, and The Spirit, but I've seen, comparatively, mountains of success with the Legion. I was a hardcore survivor main before this, of maybe 3 or 4 months, so i knew plenty of what survivors typically do during chases/downtime/etc. And since i started playing killer I've maintained a decent 2-3k pretty consistently.
But every now and then, and especially at the start, I'd look up Legion game play, Tips & Tricks, stats, anything to do better as them I'd soak up. Nearly every piece of advice or strategy about legion is filled with talk about how much worse they are now, how they used to be way more fun, etc. And I just don't get it.
In the old Legion, before the rework, you got rewarded for abusing game mechanics in ways the Devs didn't intend for. But assuming you played how they did intend, Legion basically took away survivors only tools of escape. The speed debuff wasn't really helpful, because if you found someone, they were going to go down. You also had a pseudo-Mad Grit effect when in frenzy, rewarding button mashing as opposed to decently timed hits. It was almost brainless in a way, and this isn't even accounting for how easy it was IF you abused the game mechanics.
But as they reworked Legion with the 2 big patches and even the coming QOL change, it became more about honing what Legion is good at to get your downs. Legion is the best at spreading injuries, no one is gonna contest that, but now hes better suited at Frenzying for injuries and information, and worse at downing in Frenzy. You can't button mash to get a down, you can't abuse pretty much any mechanics as badly as before if not at all, and what I think is most important, You don't take away a survivors ability to escape.
Now don't be fooled, vaulting has been buffed in Frenzy and you're even faster in and out of it. But as annoying as it is for me, the 4 (3 if those add-ons) second delay is a pretty good balance between your transition from amazing mobility to lethality. It's not like, say, Plague, who gives survivors little to get away. I might even go as far as to say Legion doesn't need this tiny buff they're getting, but it's always nice.
On the other hand, I've only played against the current Legion, but I've never had a problem with it. Their detection is effective, but not uncounterable. Being near a pallet or just accepting the hit to get the massive speed boost and have them be stunned if they want to down you is pretty good, and fun, to escape from. Their speed is great, but again, having massive speed but no way to down someone without a hefty price is a fair trade. As I'm sure we all know the deep wound timer is only efficient for Legion to down you if you're being tunneled anyway, which gives everyone else time to do gens and such.
But OLD Legion was, in my opinion, rightfully hated. A survivor could do nearly nothing if they were stabbed, the cool down was faster, the charge up was faster, it was easily exploitable, and the only honest counter was landing a pallet stun before you were hit. I have yet to see anyone say, without being the one who's playing Legion, that they were anything more than annoying to play.
Finally the point of the title is the attitude towards Legion. Old Legion gets a lot of well-deserved hate because of how poorly implemented their frenzy was, but all there is nowadays is pining for it from old Legion mains, who more often than not phrase it something like "It was broken, sure, but it was fun, so why couldn't we keep it?" And New Legion pretty much is only universally hated, Old mains hate how it's not as fun as the broken Legion, survivors (particularly the less game-sense heavy ones) say how boring of a killer it is, and people who don't play them/main other characters always talk about how weak they are while providing flimsy reasons, if any at all.
What are you're guys' thoughts, though? I'd hate to sound like I know best or whatever, and I am interested to what the community thinks. Keep in mind everything here is assuming both sides of decent skill and Meta/Pretty good perks.
TL;DR: Old Legion rewarded mindless gameplay and exploits, and didn't give survivors anything to work with. Current Legion rewards well timed attacks, careful use of information, and gave both survivors the tools to escape and the killer to effectively use his power.
Comments
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okay first of all, legion is not faster in frenzy then they were on release. the release version moved at 5.28(even faster if you were running the speed addons) while the current version moves at 5.2. second, what lethality lol? legion quite literally has nothing to down people with, they are a pure m1 killer which isn't particularly difficult to deal with if you're a halfway decent survivor.
"It's not like, say, Plague, who gives survivors little to get away." lol.
old legion got a lot of justified hate, sure. but people also complained about things that really weren't an issue(like their speed for example). probably an unpopular opinion but i feel like old legion could have been fixed with a few tweaks and some fixes to their exploits. the character wasn't nearly as fundamentally broken as some people pretended it was, but yeah not like it matters at this point.
lastly, what do you mean by "flimsy reasons"? last time i checked the things people complained about when it comes to legion were pretty valid. like their extremly long fatigue, the linearity of their power, their laughable addons, the nonsensical restrictions(like losing power charge for hitting someone) or the complete and utter lack of a tool to down people with.
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If some of my post was unclear, let me try and clarify.
First, for some reason i haven't been able to find the actual numbers of Legion's release stats, so i made a guess that they were 125% frenzy. My mistake.
Second, by lethality i meant in most cases, you come out of frenzy with at worst one person in front of you injured, or multiple people injured, either near or scattered around the map. The lethality comes from how because of that, there's a decent chance one or more people are nearby and one hit away from downed.
Next, no offence, but your argument that they have nothing to down people with is the same kind of stuff i was talking about with flimsy arguments. I've played a couple Legion games since i posted this, and i can't see why everyone seems to think M1 killers are so unbearably hard to play with no power. In a 1 on 1 chase with a standard speed M1 killer, the killer isn't powerless. Bloodlust and basic mindgames are good enough, and if you still really believe they have nothing going for you, that's mostly a subjective opinion, not a fact.
As for old Legion, I agree! I don't think the rework was necessary, just some tweaks and bug fixes. But this post isn't about that really, it's about how Old Legion, as he was, was perceived, versus the rework.
I said flimsy reasons because most of them can either be argued against or are inherently subjective. i explained why i think the long fatigue is important, i think a good half of their addons are better than people make them out to be (I will agree the ones that aren't good are effectively worthless, but i'd say only 5/20 of them are so bad that no one could make use of them), as i said if you just employ basic killer strategies it's not terribly difficult to secure a down, and as for restrictions, I can't really think of one I would say is debilitating. The example you gave is really unimportant in the grand scheme. Either you downed someone with the attack or, for some reason, you decided it was better not to use/wait for frenzy to recharge. In cases like that, It's probably not a good idea to use it anyway.
The linearity, if i understand you correctly, is again a subjective thing. I personally love its simplicity and utility, but I know some don't. That's just the deal of a killer's power not being for everyone.
As for the Plague thing, I'm planning on making another post about that when i have the time, but if you don't have anything to say besides lol there's not really a point in saying anything.
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didn't expect you to answer this detailed. will try to do the same.
you are right, m1 killers aren't as weak as people say and as god loops are about to be gone next patch i am sure it'll be even more doable but the point is more or less that literally every other killer in the game has something to help them achieve the down. you are just factually disadvantaged as legion is the only killer who doesn't. you said they have something indirect through spreading injuries however, and this is personal opinion but i just feel like that especially with how long the fatigue is most survivors can easily make it to a loop and if they are somewhat skilled, still waste a decent amount of time, unless the loop is like horribly unsafe or something.
good to see that theres someone else out there who didnt think old legion was unsaveable, doesn't change much now but still nice to see.
fair enough on the subjective part. to clarify, i didn't mean to say these things are fact, i meant more like that you can see where people are comming from. 4 seconds is simply very long for a power that can not down anyone directly and is already restricted in numerous other ways. losing power charge isn't that impactful, sure. but it's still unnecessary and feels like it's there for no real reason(just like seeing no blood in frenzy, or going nearly blind when exiting it).
by lineartiy i meant that you can't use the power for anything but its one intended purpose. you can't use it for mobility because it makes you actually lose distance. you can't use it as a chase tool because the fatigue is too long, not to mention that legion has no collision right after a stab or vault which makes body blocking extremly unlikely to work.
as for the plague part, maybe i missread it but you said that survivors cant get away from her? i just dont get how plague is an issue unless she has like omega vomit ready in an extremly open area. but honestly most killers are a huge threat when in the open without any pallets. but this isn't about plague so i'll just wait for your full post on that. sorry if that remark was a bit immature, had a bit of a rough day and just kinda acted on impulse.
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I had fun with moon walking Legion. I never went against it, back then I was 100 committed to learning killer. I could put on Bloodhound, smack a few people and just enjoy my little backwards hunting, listening for that sweet sweet sound of mending.
Get outplayed!
All joking aside, I don’t like Legion, I feel punished when I play him but I feel that’s partially my fault for staying in red ranks and then trying to learn him. Wish killers had a separate rank for each killer. I might be viable as Deathslinger but as Legion you honestly might as well consider me a lost 5th survivor enjoying my sprint burst.
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I actually hadn't considered this part of the M1 Killer argument before. You are right, though, he is the only one without any 1v1 tools. And while it isn't a gamestopping tool, i feel like as long as you've spread around a couple stabs before committing to a chase, Mending, healing, and potentially Thanatophobia/Sloppy Butcher are enough of stalling tools to mitigate the time wasted by the loops a survivor could get in. And as for the fatigue, I do really think it's both annoying and a big reason i lose chases when i do, but it's one of those elements that if it were 2-3 seconds default, and you still had the Cold Dirt and Joey's Mixtape, it would feel unfair for the survivor.
I've been playing a few more games, watching a few more videos, and i gotta say i was wrong about how it doesn't matter that Frenzy has weird restrictions. The general consensus I've seen is it's a relic of release Legion (cough cough Frank's Mixtape), but yes, I do think you're right, and that it really isn't needed/helping anyone.
Again, you have a point, but i think this one is slightly dulled by some of their addons. Both of the iridescent add-ons give Frenzy a new utility (gen awareness and survivor paranoia/pallet counter), but you could even make the argument that the detection increase, while not helping you secure hits, give's you decent ideas of where to look for survivors who think they're out of range, or that the duration can serve to disrupt things a little more. In general though, yeah, their power is a one trick pony. I personally just think the trick is decent enough that that is fine.
The short answer for the plague is i feel it rewards her for doing next to nothing and punishes survivors for mistakes that essentially came down to luck. I'm in the process of researching numbers and watching plague videos to put together the post, but in general i feel Plague is too rewarding to unskilled play (not saying she's easy to play, i sure couldn't pick her up and 4k, but those who are good at her i feel just have it easy).
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apologies for the late response, didn't really get around to it yesterday.
i just kinda disagree with that, we are taking decent survivors as an example here as you mentioned in the original post and i feel those just don't really spam heal against a legion. i find that most of the better survivors tend to only reset once or twice a match against a legion and otherwise just stay injured. i guess thanat kicks in at that point but i honestly feel that perk is just a bit overrated, it usually ends up adding a bit over half a gen to the game which isn't that crazy, infact its something pop can do in just 2 kicks. i guess it gets more value if people do spam heal but like i said, from personal experience most of the better survivors tend to just not. about sloppy, idk how you would quickly apply that to a bunch of people considering that frenzy attacks don't count as basic attacks anymore, i suppose you could use the button addon for that? but at that point especially i feel people would just wait it out due to it only lasting 60 seconds.
regarding the base time wasted by just mending, in my opinion it just isn't that impactful, usually unless everyone is super clumped together the first guy you hit finishes mending by the time you hit the second, and the second finishes by the time you hit the third and so on. so you usually just have one guy actually mending while you're chasing, like yeah it still buys you a little more time but it just isn't particularly great.
finally about the fatigue, i think they should just rework the cd addons entirely and put the base fatigue at about 3 seconds or less, wouldn't be possible to get it to some insanely low numbers like that and would be a nice little buff. perhaps like that it would be possible to actually use the power for traversal again without losing distance.
about the lineartiy stuff, i just dont think it's good design to need addons, let alone red addons in order for a power to do more than the bare minimum. fuming mixape also just isn't that great, it'd be a lot better if the legion wouldn't lose sight of gen auras when killer instinct activates but yeah, personal opinion but i just dont think that addon is that good, especially for a red.
lastly about the plague part, i'll just wait for your full post on that and give a proper response when its written out, though in short i just don't think she's an issue.
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I actually preferred old legion to new legion. I’d rather drink acid than play against new Legion. Hes so dull and braindead.
At least old Legion was 110% speed which offset his free hit and from my experience it was rare to see people cheese chases. Not unless they has franks mixtape anyway.
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As a Legion main, I can say that Legion was terrible after the rework. The new pins only worked on a FF hit against someone with a DW. Vaulting a pallet took so long the survivor could loop all the way around it. FF speed was only 5. The worst, in my opinion, was the penalty for missing an attack in FF.
However, the update in December brought their speed up to 5.2. Pin effects can be spread out with a single use. And vaulting is actually useful again. Personally, I think Legion is doing alright. Moved from life support to recovery, even if still in the hospital.
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I am a legion main since the old one and i am still a legion main.
I hated the legion rework not because legion became mindful and needed skill, but because the rework removed EVERYTHING good about old legion. I played old legion like the new one and being a 4.4m/s killer... if you dont believe me theres nothing i can do to prove you.
Old feral frenzy:
- Fast
- Short
- Lethal
- Agile (you could miss hits on it) - there should be a penalty when you miss a hit, but not the entire bar and a 4 seconds stun
- You could use it everytime (spammable)
New Feral frenzy:
- Kinda slow
- Long duration
- Non lethal by any means
- Missing a hit and hitting someone twice just punishes you and reaaally hard
- 2nd biggest cooldown in the game
Old feral frenzy felt like a short period of time that you would be powerful in there (it needed some kind of counterplay but not a complete change) and when it stopped you would become really bad.
New frenzy gives the survivor a good feeling. Its a bad power when you know that a survivor feels relaxed when you use it.
I do better with the new legion rather than the old one, but the old legion was indeed much fun. It's objectively a fact, because new legion does what the old legion did but with too many restrictions imo.
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I hate new legion, old legion was just overpowered.
New legion? He sees you, gets a free hit. Anywhere close to your team and they got spotted? Now you are injured too. Hope you are not playing on some immersive map with no pallets to use.
Super lame, it's the same reason I don't like plague. Oh you saved anyone, touched a gen, touched a totem? Sorry, you are now injured, unless you want to give her a very powerful ability that may or may not wipe your team (who refuse to cleanse even on deathhook).
People saying legion are weak don't use any chase perks on him/her. You can use bamboozle or spirit fury and boom, now your free first hit comes with a free second hit.
There's no other killer in the game that I see who can potentially injure 3+ survivors in the first minute of the game. But he is a bad killer, right?
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Zero ######### given, i paid for the dlc as i saw the trailer. I'm not gonna play this scam legion, and he will always remain bad. Old legion and new legion, F tier killers. I want old legion and defeating survivors in feral frenzy. I want my agile, limitless, and lethal legion back. I don't care what survivors feel when they play against my old legion. Nobody should care what the enemy thinks of their tactics, because this is a pvp game.
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That’s how I feel too. Legion is complete horse manure and braindead. Just tap m2 and hold W for the free hit.
Reason people think he sucks is because they aren’t very good at the game. They can’t mindgame so they get looped endlessly. They all take Thana thinking its going to stall the game.
Thana doesn’t make up for the fact that survivors dont heal. They save a lot of gen time by not healing. Therefore you need quicker chases to make up for it. As you say Spirit fury, bamboozle etc all help him get the second hit. Monitor & abuse is underrated too, lets you get real close before they realize whats happening.
I hate Legion so much. Probably my least played killer too.
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There are now four different versions of Legion, let's break them down.
Old Legion (v.1.0)
- 4.4 m/s + 24 meter terror radius.
- 5.28 m/s Frenzy speed.
- 0.9 second vaulting.
- 6 second duration.
- 15 second recovery.
- 3 second cooldown.
- Frenzy hits reduce Deep Wound time.
- Can miss attacks.
- Can see blood pools.
- Basic attacks deplete the entire power.
- Pallet stuns deplete the entire power.
- Frenzy attacks are basic attacks.
Gutted Legion (v.2.0)
- 4.6 m/s + 32 meter terror radius.
- 5.0 m/s Frenzy speed.
- 1.1 second, and 1.35 second vaulting.
- 10 second duration.
- 20 second recovery.
- 4 second cooldown.
- Frenzy hit cannot reduce Deep Wound time.
- Cannot miss attacks.
- Cannot see blood pools.
- Basic attacks deplete half of the power.
- Pallet stuns do not deplete the power, unless in Frenzy.
- Frenzy attacks are basic attacks.
Hybrid Legion (v.3.0)
- 4.6 m/s + 32 meter terror radius.
- 5.2 m/s Frenzy speed.
- 0.9 second vaulting.
- 10 second duration.
- 20 second recovery.
- 4 second cooldown
- Frenzy hits cannot reduce Deep Wound time.
- Cannot miss attacks.
- Cannot see blood pools.
- Basic attacks deplete half of the power.
- Pallet stuns do not deplete the power, unless in Frenzy.
- Frenzy attacks are special attacks.
Newest Legion (v.4.0)
- Same as Hybrid Legion, but can see blood pools and scratch marks during their cooldown.
Gameplay wise, I preferred Old Legion (v.1.0) because their power wasn't so linear. You had choice, and how you played altered the match entirely. The latest releases of Legion feels very linear, and offer no opportunities to change your strategy. That being said, if they were to rework the Deep Wound addons (Stab Wounds Study, Frank's Mixtape) into something fun and engaging, then I'm all in.
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Many people cant see that new legion is not that bad competitively but in a fun way they are horrendous. Their power has nothing to offer besides chaining hits, having 3000 restrictions and then having a headache in the end. Like you said, you had a choice before.
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Legion is a little underpowered and really can't get the same value as other Killers unless you specialize in them. Fortunately I do. I'm at Rank 2 on Legion and they're the only Killer I play on a regular basis. I do really well because I used to be a hardcore Survivor main so Leg's mobility is very strong in my hands.
Legion's biggest strength is their Killer instinct tracking. There's no counterplay to it and its much more subtle than a Killer like Plague or Doctor. Most people aren't even super aware that Legion knows where they are (especially when you run Monitor to get up to 56m of info). You can make a lot of plays with that knowledge. Like hitting someone in the middle of the map and realizing that someone is heading for the unhook so you can leave the current chase and intercept the unhook. Or hitting someone and using the tracking to figure out which generator is being worked on. Or heck even just hitting a Survivor with Frenzy near the end of the game so you have an idea where the last person is because they'll probably hide in a locker to avoid BBQ. Or hitting someone that hasn't been hooked you to get info on someone that's on death hook. So many options its crazy what you can come up with.
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While I never could get into legion. I’m all for any qol improvements he needs. As April O’Neal on tmnt 1 on nes says you have my support.
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What is a jeffrey like you doing in this little ol post? XD
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I would love it if Jeff the Killer was in this game.
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@DWolfAlpha I'd love a shark cosmetic for clown. And instead a heart beat it be the start of the jaws song with the full song as his chase music.
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Honestly, I at least want mutli-striking to reduce bleedout to be reintroduced and it costs a penalty on your current charge. Each hit removes 20% of what the hit person has of bleedout (so they go from 100 to 80, to 64 etc). Maybe, under perfect conditions, 5 swipes could be done on a single survivor (which would leave them with ~32.75%). The problem is how you can leisurely walk away, sit in a corner, and heal with the current timer. Doing this allows you to jump from spread damage to hunting capability and back. His power is more-or-less useless in chases completely apart from the ~5 seconds save done the first hit. This would allow him to use the ability to focus on a survivor instead, and forcing them to need to heal closer to the legion if they manage to escape, so instead of a thing where it's like "I stabbed 2 people ten seconds ago and they're all disappeared, mended, and probably 80% healed, with no other survivor in sight" it becomes "I can risk chaining damage to hopefully slow, or I can deal large damage to a single person and reduce their chance of escaping the chase safely."
TL;DR: His issue is depth. It's m2, stab, have a stroke, spend 2 minutes looping someone who's apparently bleeding out but can run circles just fine.
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Um. Ok ...
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What do you mean she rewards unskilled play?you can even get pusinshed for skilled play with her which results as a low amount of blood points and brutal killer or a depip (not that rank matters). if a player is good at someone like billy, of course their going to find it easy. they're used to that character and put time and effort into them knowing most counters and predictions of the survivors upon action.
Sorry that this is unrelated but she is definitely not rewarding for unskilled play.
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Wow, this blew up while I was gone. I can't quote every message i wanna respond to, so I'll give a general reply to most of this (except for that random jaws clown and jeff the killer stuff?).
Seeing the Numbers for all versions of Legion has definitely been eye-opening to what people really mean when they say old Legion was good. I've started to notice each time I miss a swing, each time I'm stunned, and how painful it really is in terms of losing survivors. As Gatsby put it, there are a lot of things you could do with Frenzy, but the stun, and the charge, I'm realizing more and more are incredibly oppressive for little payoff. I've also realized how much basic attacks with frenzy would change the options you have, versus how little you have as it stands.
Survivors have a pretty easy time figuring out what a Legion is thinking in terms of who the target is, what they're about to do, and so on. So many survivors get hit by frenzy and just stop 5 feet away and mend, cause they assume Legion would run off and stab someone else (And 95% of the time, they'd be right). Legion can't really punish this without that stun, which is the perfect chance to get away.
The stun is definitely one of the bigger parts of Legion's kit that I've come to realize doesn't make much sense. Not that it shouldn't be there, but it almost feels like a Band-aid from the devs in its current state? It's a good punishment for ending a Frenzy from a stun, if you stab someone with DW, or if you just fail to stab altogether, but i can think of this one game i had, where i chained i think it was 7 successful stabs before it ran out, and i didn't feel rewarded in any way. It wasn't a group of idiots, they were good survivors, but i remember thinking i could have ended it after the 4th stab and i probably would have had a better chance anyway.
Overall, a big thing about Legion i had before i made this thread was i both didn't have enough information on Old Legion (which is on me, but it is odd that on both the wiki and a couple google searches i couldn't find any of those stats), and i didn't take into account how oppressive the stun and restrictions were. Rose tinted glasses i guess. And while i stand by in their current state they're definitely on the underpowered side, and now think that their Frenzy is much more mindless than the old one (Which is the whole point of this thread i guess?), I do think that between v1, v2, and v3/4, 4 is the most balanced. Not saying it's the best in terms of stats or viability, but it's a middle between survivors thinking "Whatever may as well give up" and "oh lol legion ezpz."
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The issue with Legion was that Feral Frenzy was almost uncounterable and he was the ultimate tunneler. They didn't have to do anything to tunnel someone, just use FF and you will 100% down that survivor. They also removed almost every loop in the game with how fast they vaulted. They also had an extremely strong combo to make the cooldown almost non-existent, the add-ons Cold Dirt and Joey's mixtape which practically made downing in the chase incredibly easy.
The reworked legion is just udder dog #########, if you don't have good perks or add-ons you are going to get slaughtered like a dog. On console its even worse as autoaim is horrid, or the "Aim Dressing"
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