As a Killer Main, why is Freddy so overdone?
He absolutely needed a rework from his old self, but why did they give so much to him?
Let's have a look:
1) He has a mechanic that puts survivors to sleep without any effort by him. This mechanic can disorientate survivors and allow for Freddy to use his anti-loop tools without even hitting them.
2) He has anti-loop powers that can shut down loops very easily.
3) He has a powerful mobility tool that can allow him to easily pressure survivors.
4) The sleep state can act as a stall mechanic for survivors who need to find others or their correspond table to release them from the dream world.
So he has strong anti-loop, mobility, stall potential and a mechanic that acts as a pseudo-monitor and abuse perk. Why does he have so much? Other killers only have one or two of these powers but Freddy has all three and doesn't work for them as hard.
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And yet, he's maybe 4th or 5th best depending on who you ask
For me, he is an easy 4th
Nurse
Spirit
Billy
Freddy
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The only thing I think that was over the top was making the Wake Up Alarm spawn as far as possible when asleep. It should be RNG like Pig’s Reverse Bear Traps.
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As an old Freddy player, I kind of agree. New Freddy has a lot going for him. They need to make it easier to wake up and remove the oblivious effect from Dream World. He gets a free anti-BT and it's dumb, plus you can't use any perks that require TR to take effect, which is the same as before (just reversed).
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy Freddy went from the absolute worst killer to one of the best, but he does kind of have too much in his base kit. Even if the oblivious effect was an add-on that would be fine.
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I think the two big change that needs to happen to Freddy is to let survivors wake up at any clock...but maybe as a compensation you transition into the dream world faster, or you can only enter the dream world if Freddy hits you first?
The 2nd change is to remove the oblivious effect from the dream world. I don't think he should be able to basically completely ignore BT. It's kind of dumb imo. At least with Wraith you have to be cloaked, where he can't attack survivors, and Pig takes a long time to crouch and uncrouch. Freddy just doesn't care about BT
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- Make BT work when asleep, either through making it simply based on killer distance or changing Freddy specifically is fine. Being able to abuse the "stealth" mechanic to get a free tunnel and camp feels unfair.
- Require some effort by Freddy to put people to sleep, what form this would take is beyond me.
- Add a risk to spamming snares, slower movement speed, they don't recycle, really anything that limits him being able to bloodlust at a pallet to death.
any combination of these would bring Freddy down a notch without being too much
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He literally puts me to sleep. I just find going against him extremely boring.
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Freddy is stronger than Billy for sure.
Freddy: super high map pressure (teleport), very high chase potential (snares), semi-stealth (invisible when awake, Oblivious when asleep), and high slow down potential with add-ons.
Billy: one shot, high map pressure, high snowball potential.
Freddy is objectively better. Lead Billy to a strong loop and he's basically an m1 killer with a fast pallet break. Freddy can outright negate every loop in the game by spamming snares.
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Because any of those abilities would be weak af alone?
He is exactly what the Clown should be.
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He's only weaker to Nurse and Spirit who are broken by design and offer zero counter play to their abilities if used well. At least with Freddy, he doesn't negate pallets.
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Currently Im a killer main and Im agree.
- Spot Survivors in grass (glowing effect)
- Slow Gen / Heal
- Requires contact and 7sec to put a Survivor to sleep
And Now
- Spot Survivors in grass (glowing effect)
- Slow Gen / Heal
- Teleport from gen to to gen
- Slow down / Survivor spotting snare
- Ignore BT
- With 7sec of put to sleep, now Survivor gets to sleep on their ownin 60sec. The time you run to the other side of map to wake up and run back to the gen you're working on. Just to get back to sleep in 60sec is totally not worth it
I dont like Freddy as Killer and as Survivor. I bought him just for the perk
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If I had to guess, it probably had to do something with this:
You're entering HIS world.
I think a much more likely reason is that his abilities by themselves wouldn't be that strong. If you remove the snares/pallets, he's just a 115% M1 Killer in chases. There isn't always a gen nearby for you to teleport ahead to. If you remove the teleport, then he's basically Clown with eight smaller bottles or Doctor with the Order add-on and nothing else (not even Madness).
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He didn't need a rework in the first place, he was a fine killer and at most needed quality of life improvements.
So instead of trying to buff a killer that was actually hard, but real unique. They made him, they somehow made the man that could slow down games for an eternity, a real boring thing to play against. He's a Frankenstein of other killers.
This problem will most likely keep until either he's nerfed into the ground or reworked again. They give into the "muh 7 second fedora man bad" and wanted to change him to make him inherently higher tier
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Maybe so new killers have a good option, since matchmaking sends them vs red ranks even at rank 20.
To me as a survivor, i have no problem with him. But in my opinion, a lot of survivors overly relay on looping, and he cant be looped easily.
A lot of player should shift their playstyle to avoid being found instead of just running in circles for 5 minutes.
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Personal Bias for me
I prefer Billy is all
But, Freddy is top 5 at the very least. 4th for me personally as I have said.
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"1) He has a mechanic that puts survivors to sleep without any effort by him. This mechanic can disorientate survivors and allow for Freddy to use his anti-loop tools without even hitting them."
While this is indeed not enjoyable, it is the best you can do. If Survivors would not fall asleep over time, Freddy would have 0 chance to get his Toolkit to work, unless he hits a Survivor in a Chase.
As others have written, waking up should be easier. Also the Oblivious effect needs to go, this cannot be said enough. Freddy should not be able to safely camp Survivors.
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1) He is powerless until you hit them or wait a decent time and they have several tools to avoid that again. I think there are several killers that have chasing abilities that are constantly available (Shred, hatchets, speargun, shocks, traps, chainsaws), so...
2) Yes, having the same counterplay as doctor: dropping pallets early or leave the loop in another direction. Freddy is still mindgameable and not every loop is countered by a single snare. Sometimes you can even eat the snare and still get the pallet or window, if not placed well or if the loop is bad sized. Agreed that this is hard to learn, but Freddys snares are easier to deal with as for example spirit.
3) Which killers need to be viable in the first place. And as it is strong, it has a pretty decent cooldown. Fair in my opinion. And you get audio cues to know when he is using it, allowing you to estimate when it will be back up.
4) If you don't run the specific addons, you are not even badly affected by the dreamworld. Often you don't have that urge to be awake.
Summary: Sure he is strong. But he is playableand needs a bit more attention and adaption in looping. I don't see any of his features OP and as said above, all of the abilities alone would be pretty weak. Just removing one of them could make him weak. The only thing I could see is a slight slowdown on placing snares
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imagine after the next patch, playing as freddy with slowdown add ons and slowdown perks :D oh my god, everyone will die in 5 seconds
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you are right. i don't think any 115% movement speed killer needs an ability to teleport to gens, and WITH snares and everything freddy already has it is terribly strong and should be looked at. freddy has everything and doesn't require any skill.
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@thesuicidefox @Swiftblade131 Are we sleeping on how good Hag is? I guess it would be a personal bias for me but when played well I believe Hag is better than BOTH Freddy and Billy.
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Freddy has everything. An anti-loop ability, map pressure, and the oblivious status effect which directly counters Borrowed Time and slows down gen progress when paired with jump ropes. Pair all this with perks like PGTW, Surveillance, and Thanatophobia...you’re in for a very long drawn out boring game.
He’s strong but I believe he has just a bit too much going for him at his base-kit. He shouldn’t be able to snare-lust at pallets so effectively as @BigTimeGamer has stated.
- He shouldn’t be able to snare-lust at pallets. Snares shouldn’t be able to just be spammed over and over again and rely on bloodlust and the survivor being hindered to get your downs. This is the reason people claim Freddy is a “braindead” killer.
- Either make it so survivors can wake up at any alarm clock or remove microsleep and have it so survivors are only pulled into the dream world if they get injured.
- Being in the dream world should not ignore Borrowed Time.
That’s the only changes I’d make.
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Except all he needed was a buff not a rework...
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You know why people demand that BT should work on Freddy? BT is a second chance perk and due to that one of the most used survivor perks in high ranks.
To solve that issue i would make BT just not TR based, more like distance based. 4-12 metres imo.
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How do you counter an object swf as hag? Just askin because nobody was able to give me a good answer ever.
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Freddy's fine.
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Freddy puts me to sleep in game and in real life.
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Don’t see what’s so bad if you stay awake by alarm clock, missing skill check or by another survivor you deny Freddy of most his powers. But guess it takes time away from rushing the gens
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At least with a good freddy it's over pretty quick.
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Freddy loses bloodlust when placing a trap. I checked in kyf after being told the opposite. But let me know if you get a different result.
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He reverse-bloodlusts. Just slowing you down instead of him speeding up lol
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Ahhhhhh, I get it. My question is why doesn't doc lose bloodlust after using his shock. He is the only killer that gets to keep blood lust when using his power?
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Great question lol
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No. Every killer can be lethal with right buid. I for one main billy and there s a build that basically guarantees you 4 kills 3 kills at the best. Billy has slow down addons as well.
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Does freddy ACTUALLY slow actions down in the dreamworld without add ons? There seems to be some unclarity about this. No one can ever tell me how much it is if it does?
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I won't disagree that every killer is strong with the right build, but at base OBJECTIVELY Freddy is definitely stronger than Billy. He has more tools and more potential to be stronger. It's not that I'm saying Billy is weak, I'm saying Freddy is just stronger than Billy. You can easily see this if you play them naked with no perks/add-ons. Freddy will still crush most good survivors where Billy will struggle with better survivors. Freddy just has way more potential in his kit and takes far less effort to get to that maximum potential than Billy. To be super oppressive as a naked Billy, you have to be a good Billy. To be super oppressive as a naked Freddy, you only have to be a decent Freddy.
Also Billy's slow down add-ons don't even compare to Freddy's. Begrimed Chains slows down survivors by 9% for 120 seconds, and requires you to find and hit the survivor with a chainsaw. Considering that upon doing this you will get a hook, practically you are only getting that debuff for 60-90s at best. Freddy has several add-ons that apply a debuff and require 0 input on his part. The survivor just falls asleep naturally, or by being hit. And it's indefinite until the survivor wakes up (which itself is a game slowing mechanic). With Jump Rope and Swing Chains Freddy gets up to a 12% debuff AND up to an 8% debuff on awake survivors. He doesn't need to do anything to get those debuffs, but if he does find and hit you he just applies the debuff sooner rather than later. Billy's add-ons cannot compete with that kind of passive slow down. Freddy also has Paint Brush which can start survivors asleep and keep them asleep longer, making the debuff semi-permanent for the entirety of the game.
Billy is just not as strong as Freddy. You really can't argue this.
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I honestly don't see what all the hype about Freddy is. I play him alot, and still get my ass kicked half the time. Smart survivors know how to play against him very well. Gens still pop fast, and by the time I teleport, there half way a cross the map. His power is completely useless unless there in the dreamworld. waking up is still easy, just fail a skill check. In all honesty, I play better w GF then Freddy, but I'm a stealth killer, and love having no TR most the match.
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Hag is a good killer if you learn how to use her properly, but sorry she's not even close to Freddy or Billy.
Hag has HARD counters. Flashlights and Urban Evasion pretty much nullify her power completely. She is also 110, meaning she can't chase as effectively unless she places traps during the chase or before the chase.
Billy is 115 with a one shot. His snowball potential alone puts him way above Hag. Hag has a better defense when it comes to gen or hook protection (camping), but Billy is very close to this strength. Trying to make a save against either killer is very difficult if they decide to camp. Billy also has higher mobility and he isn't required to have already been to a place to get there quickly.
Freddy has even higher mobility than Billy, and his power hos no real hard counters. The best you can do is stuff like Resil, Botany, etc. to counter the passive slowdown from his add-ons. Snares have exactly 0 counters, you can know they are there and it won't matter. You either take a long path to avoid it, or eat it and slow down, either way you get hit. And he can spam them without penalty. The closest counter to snares is Calm Spirit because you don't scream he can't use it as a tracking tool against you, but it will still work in a chase. He can also camp very effectively because Dream World is an automatic anti-BT. If he camps it can be very difficult to get a safe rescue because of this. And due to his teleport, he has as much long range camping potential as Hag.
Hag is pretty easy to bully as a 4 man SWF. She relies on you being overly-altruistic to actually be lethal, but if you have good communication you can break her setups pretty well. The moment she picks up a survivor to hook, you trigger every trap you can. That alone makes it very difficult to play against SWF as Hag. Billy and Freddy, especially Freddy, are far less affected by SWF shenanigans like this.
Like, case and point, since new Freddy came out I had exactly 1 team 4e me, and it was Ward where I had really bad RNG and played very poorly. I think I even had a different build that wasn't very strong. Every other game is a 3k/hatch or 4k. Maybe 1 other team got 2e on me, but 95% of my games the survivors never make it to gates. He is insanely strong, and it's to a point where I don't enjoy playing him because it doesn't feel very rewarding TBH. Hence why I just stick to Spirit and Ghostface because it's more fun and challenging (even though I consider Spirit a stronger killer, she takes more skill to be stronger so that's why I enjoy her more).
Here is a tier list I made a few months ago that outlines where I think each killer is. S tier killers are hands down the strongest, A tier killers are very strong but have weaknesses that can be exploited or take a lot of skill, B tier are good but have weaknesses that are hard to overcome, C tier can be lethal with the right builds and a good amount of skill but it will be an uphill battle, and D tier have glaring weaknesses that are easy to exploit. This was before Deathslinger, if I were to place him I would probably put him right after Oni, since he has high chase potential and semi-stealth but suffers heavily in map pressure.
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Naked Freddy is stronger than default Billy for sure. But if we compare best Hillbilly addons vs best Freddy addons then i d say you can t really compare them as there are perks builds that would suit Hillbilly more and Freddy less and so on. They good in different areas. Cant be compared.
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When talking about who's good, I don't like to include add-ons. Just the potential at base no add-ons.
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You can’t. No killer can except stealth killers (and Nurse and Spirit really don’t care either).
But Freddy suffers just as much as Hag. When in the dream world you have literal wall hacks since OoO is terror radius based and Freddy has no terror radius. Freddy can’t mindgame at a jungle gym and moonwalk and try to hide his red light. You can legit always see Freddy and he can’t do anything about it. He’s just as weak as Hag is against OoO.
I’m not gonna give you a lame response on how Hag can counter OoO because she simply can’t.
But that’s really not an issue though. I almost never run into SWF groups with OoO. It’s not an “every game” sort of thing so OoO shouldn’t be a factor in what makes a killer good or not. It should be based on what a majority of games are going to be like and OoO is not meta.
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Killers that are good without addons are : Nurse , Hag, Spirit.
Billy is weak with no addons as he s limited too much. Anyone who know his basics will counter him. As for Freddy i think the same. His power doesnt work when you not asleep . Any loopable killers are weak without addons.
As for naked hag you can at least go for basement Hag that would allow you snowball.
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Doctor B rank? Please.
Rest is overall agreeable.
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You don't really need a "build" for Freddy to compete with Billy though. Give him BBQ and Pop and Freddy will have way more map pressure than Billy ever could. Snares by default are a stronger chase tool than chainsaw. If you loop well, you can avoid the chainsaw on most tiles and force Billy to m1. You can't avoid snares, and they will work on every single tile in the game. So in a situation where Billy is forced to m1, Freddy will win at those loops much much sooner than Billy. And if we factor in add-ons, again Billy's slow down add-ons require him to chainsaw you and have a limited time frame of effect. Freddy's are passive, require no input on his end (and if he provides input he just increases the slow down even more), and are indefinite until the survivor wakes up (which this act itself is a slow down mechanic built into his kit).
So Freddy doesn't need a build to be super effective. He needs 2 perks, and maybe 1 add-on to be roughly equal with a fully loaded Billy.
Also if the build you are talking about for Billy includes Infectious, just remember that Calm Spirit hard counters Infectious. I use this perk all the time and Infectious means nothing to me. You can tell that it works too because killers that rely on Infectious to find survivors have a very difficult time finding and tracking me. While it also works against Freddy for tracking, it doesn't stop snares from working. And if you are asleep you glow in the dark, which has no counter and makes you extremely visible.
Anything Billy can do, Freddy can do better. The only thing Billy has over Freddy is snowball potential, but that requires some luck and/or mistakes on survivor side to really capitalize. Freddy can easily win without needing to snowball.
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Why does everyone keep throwing nurse in there? She damn sure ain't top tier or "S" Anymore unless the S stands for #########. I haven't seen a nurse in weeks...
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That was a very well written response.
Some killers can just immediately start using their power effectively (Spirit, Freddy, Billy) while some take time (Hag, Myers, Oni) and some people value killers that can immediately snowball but when Hag gets the ball rolling she is definitely at least on par with Billy or Freddy.
You really have to be good with where you place traps and herd survivors into them. Billy and Freddy can 4K easier and faster but it really doesn’t take as much effort as it would with Hag which is why I avoid them.
Hag can actually have the best map pressure in the entire game with Mint Rag as you immediately teleport to whatever trap you’re looking at and it takes a shorter amount of time than it would for Freddy to teleport to a gen. I have never lost a Hag game with Mint Rag, it’s super strong.
I agree mostly with your tier list but I don’t believe Oni or Plague are weaker than Myers nor is Ghostface an entire tier above Myers.
Unpopular opinion but I believe Deathslinger is better than Huntress. He has instant ADS so he is basically a Huntress with a fully wound up hatchet and semi-stealth especially with M&A. It doesn’t matter that he can’t down over pallets when instantly shoot and the survivors are bobbing and weaving when they shouldn’t. The threat of the gun alone is enough to close distance a lot of the time.
Huntress can snowball much easier and has more generous hitboxes but I believe Deathslinger has more going for him than Huntress does.
But tier lists always have varying opinions.
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If Billy is forced to m1 then he is getting outplayed simple as that or just doing bad. Not that build. There s really not much counter to that build if killer is hillbilly.
Shares dont work if survivors are not asleep.
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I think this was before the Doc update, or maybe just after. I would probably rank him higher now, though he would still be B tier.
Remember a tier list is a ranking of characters based on comparable potential strength. Putting a killer in B tier does not mean they are weak, it means they are weaker than the characters above them. And the difference between one tier and the next suggests a distinct gap in potential strength, while the difference within a tier suggests a minor but still measurable gap in potential strength. So Ghostface is clearly superior to Myers despite them effectively being ranked one after the other, but then Billy is only slightly better than Huntress as they are within the same tier. Myers does not have the same potential as Ghostface, but Huntress DOES have the same potential as Billy, just Billy is still measurably superior.
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Just because nobody plays her doesn't mean she's still not the best. She's just more difficult to play than it's worth.
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I don't disagree with your Hag assessment there, again she is a strong killer. Just definitely not stronger than anyone I put above her. That's what people really need to understand about what a true tier list is. Hag is very very strong. But Freddy and Billy are measurably stronger. Billy has more snowball potential than Hag and it requires far less set up. Freddy isn't a snowballing killer, but he has very very high map pressure and chase potential, much more than Hag. Of course, you can up Hag's pressure with Mint Rag, but then I can up Freddy's pressure with Paint Brush and Swing Chains. Hag is very dependent on survivors coming to her. Freddy can play offensively or defensively, and he doesn't require any setup. All 3 killers can consistently 4k at high ranks, but of the 3 Freddy is just more effective and requires the least amount of effort to play at that level.
Eh, you can force Billy to m1 on any jungle gym tile if you path right. The best he can hope for is that the loop gets cut short and he gets a quick pallet break. Freddy can counter any loop with snares and your pathing is kind of irrelevant. He can also cut the loop shorter than Billy and more consistently with less effort.
Sorry I just don't see Billy as being nearly as strong as Freddy. Freddy has clear advantages over Billy and less counter play options.
I'm also curious to hear this build you keep mentioning, because I can guarantee that Freddy would be stronger with just BBQ, Pop, and Jump Rope. Those 3 items alone put Freddy above almost the entire killer cast regardless of what builds they run.
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Even if Freddy does nothing, they passively fall asleep. Your point would make sense if the passive was taken away because Freddy would actually have to do something to put people to sleep.
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You can keep others awake . Fail a skillcheck to wake up. So players that know how to manage that will destroy default Freddy .
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