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Hex: No One Escapes Death
A few things before I begin:
For the duration of this post, I will be referring to Hex: No One Escapes Death as "NED". This is to save me typing out "Hex: No One Escapes Death" and to keep in line with my earlier post. Seriously, can we just call it NED?
Secondly, this post will be pretty lengthy (as you should expect from me by now). If you're here to say "NOED is OP" or "Just do bones" Save it, please. That isn't what this thread is about and I'll know if you didn't even bother to read it from that alone.
Thirdly, there will be a TL;DR at the bottom to summarise everything I say. If you don't want to read everything, then that should suffice, but to understand my whole point I suggest reading all of it.
So, as we all know, this perk is rather controversial. We have some people saying the perk is fine, and that survivors just need to cleasne totems (or as I've seen it more commonly mentioned, "do bones"). This seems to be the attitude of an awful lot of members of this forum. Others say that NED isn't fine, particularly if the killer camps/tunnels, and provides free kills when the killer didn't deserve them. For clarification, I stand on the latter side of the argument, but let's try and put all biases aside for now. This thread is to come up with a way to appease both sides; please refrain from commenting until you've read all of it (or at the least, the TL;DR).
NED is a perk that a lot of people are complaining about, and has caused a massive split between survivors and killers. So I'll try and propose a suitable solution.
What are my aims for this discussion? Well, I want to find a form of NED that satsfies both sides as best as I can (even though I'm aware that I can't please everyone no matter what I do, and that's just how the internet works). I want to find a fair, balanced perk, still worthy of being a hex and providing ample risk for suibtable reward.
So what's the current issues with NED?
Some people say the perk is unfair, since a killer can play awfully all game and still get kills. This is probably shown best in one of Otzdava's more recent streams (found here), where he camps survivors and still ends in a 4k most matches. It takes a swf team, where their entire gimmick is escaping the hook by themselves and rushing generators as fast as possible, for him to not get a 4k. Obviously this seems kinda absurd. But then again, Otz is one of the best killers playing the game right now, so it could just be that he outplayed all of the survivors. Regardless of your views, this was done mostly in part due to NED. Feel free to check out the stream (almost 2 hours of gameplay at red ranks).
Therefore, the current issue is that NED provides a very high reward (able to turn the tides of the game into a 4k easily) despite the fact that people are able to play badly all game (by facecamping, not pressuring generators, etc).
Some will say that NED is needed because of adrenaline, and they cancel each other out, but really? For a start, adrenaline needs the survivors to play relatively smart to get all 5 gens completed, whilst NED activates regardless. Plus, would you rather have several busted things in a game, or none? I'd rather both just be nerfed at this point.
Additionally, people say that NED activating is completely the fault of the survivors. This is partially true; if it's a 3 or 4 man swf squad on comms rushing gens and not doing totems, then yeah it's all their fault and they deserve it. But like I've mentioned in several previous threads, it's more often that not teams of solo survivors that get ruined by NED, having cleansed 3-4 obvious totems leaving that one obscure totem still standing and waiting. Furthermore, a lack of totem counter requires solo players to guess at how many totems are left, or limits their build space using perks such as Small Game or Detective's Hunch, or a map with an add-on. Not only does this do the opposite of what the developers want to do- encourage build variety- but it also forces solo players to spend time searching and cleansing instead of repairing generators. This is stress that solo survivor- the hell that it is- doesn't need.
So how can we change this to make it appealing to both sides?
Well, one way to do this is to leave NED as it is. Instead, add in some extra information to solo survivor, one of which being a totem counter. This will enable solos to stay on top of totems, whilst not buffing swf in any meaningful way. Whilst it won't be a perfect equaliser, it will allow people to do generators after knowing for sure all 5 totems have been cleansed, or search for the final one before the fateful NED strikes.
However, some people have expressed distaste in this idea (I don't know why, it's one of the best ways to ensure this game can become as balanced as possible), so I'll throw some more ideas out there.
The first idea is to remove NED from being a hex perk and place it on a timer. This places importance on immersion- if the killer can't find someone in that time limit then the killer doesn't get the reward of the perk, whereas if they do find someone then they have a good chance of reaping the benefits and snowballing easily. This was the form of the perk, back in the day (read in an old man's voice, obviously), in version 1.0.5 (so very early on). This was active for a flat 120 seconds. I suggest making the speed boost flat across all tiers (3% so as to not be too obnoxiously strong but not too small it isn't noticable), and have the timer scale. It could be similar to Haunted Grounds (40/50/60 seconds), but I believe this is too small a time window to get any meaningful value. Therefore, I'd suggest something a whole lot closer to 80/90/100 seconds. Not too annoying that it's 2 minutes long (twice the time of an EW3 Myers and 2.67 times longer than a ghostface exposed), but also not too oppresive that nothing can get done within 2 minutes.
Another idea that could come to pass is removing the speed boost from NED and keeping the instant down effect, although this has large issues with scalability, so instead removing the instant down and buffing the movement speed could also be a viable solution. The movement speed would have to be buffed, obviously, perhaps to something like 8/9/10%. That's 2 stacks of Play WIth Your Food at tier 3, for reference. This could be very strong, and cuts down on loop times quite a bit whilst increasing pressure due to a large boost to movement speed, but also not as annoying as instantly downing a survivor whilst also moving faster. Though, this is 125% speed (or 5m/s, 5% slower than The Legion using their power), so perhaps neither of these are the best.
An idea I've heard a couple times is to make NED a token-based perk, similar to Devour Hope. For every survivor you hook, gain a token. Once the exit gates are powered, NED will activate. Each token provides a small boost to speed (say, 0.5%) and each hit consumes 2 tokens to enable the insta-down. This seems like the second best option (next to giving solos a totem counter), as it retains the strength of current NED whilst removing a lot of the animosity. If the killer can stack up to 8 tokens with all four survivors alive, meaning they played pretty fair and allowed everyone to have fun, then the perk wouldn't feel as cheap as it currently does (where you can just facecamp and still get a 4k, again Otzdava). I personally love this idea, and feel like it could be a welcome change that both sides would like. To scale it, it could be similar to Save The Best For Last, where it consumes 4/3/2 tokens on the hit to perform an instant down. This gives benefit to tier one (if youre on 7 stacks then you get an insant down and then keep 1.5% bonus speed for the rest of the endgame), and also to tier 3 because it allows you to instantly down a survivor several more times.
One final method I've seen to rework NED whilst keeping the insta-down is to change NED to only become active when the Endgame Collapse is triggered instead. This just seems like a flat-out nerf, and isn't something I'm particularly fond of.
A final way to completely rework NED whilst not having it instantly down a surivor is to remove that condition entirely (obviously), and instead have NED activate when it comes to the unlocking of the exit gates. Whilst slowing the unlocking wouldn't be preferred since we already have Remember Me, I feel like something similar to Hex:Ruin would be pretty creative and new. Furthermore, it'd remove the issue some people have with 99% exit gates. My proposal:
NED activates when all generators have been completed. When not unlocking an exit gate, they will regress at 1/2/3 charges per second (depending on how you want written it could also be 100/200/300%). Not the best, but it's new and it could work.
Overall, NED is a badly designed perk (in my opinion) which I believe needs a change. Above I've highlighted the ways I'd do it, but if you have a different way of changing the perk (remember, we're trying to be consctructive, keep the perk in a relatively strong state whilst removing many gripes about the perk, and ensure it isn't seen as a cheap win). Please do let me know, just keep it civil.
TL;DR for those who wanted it.
NED is a pretty weird perk. I don't like it, but here we are. Here are my suggestions to fix it and make it healthy for both sides:
-Add a totem counter (good)
-Buff speed boost but remove insta down (bad)
-Stop it being a hex and just make it on a timer like in 1.0.5 (meh)
-Buff perk in a different way but remove speed boost (bad)
-Have it affect gates by regressing them when not being unlocked. (meh)
-Have it trigger during EGC (bad)
-Have it as a totem based system like devour hope. (good)
Comments
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I really like the idea of it being something like Ruin for Exit gates,because then survivors couldnt just 99 exit gates but would have to open them, which means that egc would start.
But I think they should just add a totem counter and make the ruin for gates a completely new perk, bc it doesnt have anything to do with noed in its current state.
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Related topic:
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Another person using Otz stream as a proof, even too he simply face camped and used NOED as a last ressort. I was here during the stream and he agreed that his ''Test'' was kinda a mistake. People also ignore how he said Second chance perk of survivor need a nerf. With that said I think that survivor can have the luxury of using Detective Hunch Perk. I mean, survivor technicaly have a total of 12 perk slot. Even if all four survivor use DS, BT and Unbreakable (all those perk are not only real good, but counter Tunnel, camp and slug) and then each survivor still has a free perk slot, and im pretty sure one of them can use Detective to do bones. Not only with that single perk you counter any Hex perk of the killer, you also counter NoED.
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I think in that last line you meant "token based" not "totem based." But that solution I think would be really touchy. While I feel like it could work, I don't see why you wouldn't just take devour hope instead. I mean, devour hope has a similar element of surprise where it doesn't reveal itself until you strike with it. It is still active during the main portion of the game, but I feel like 3 hooks and getting instant downs, plus the other perks you get at 2 and 5 tokens during the game is a lot more valuable than hooking each survivor 2 times for the capability of instant downing only during the end game.
I understand it's probably not the MOST thought out idea and you probably just kinda thought it up real quick, but I've seen the suggestion before just worded slightly differently and I remember thinking the same thing back then: why not just take devour then, so you can get all the benefits before the end game? I figured I'd just add the thought in this thread too, for discussion's sake. Anyway, if it did have a token based system I personally think it would have to be something other than "hook each survivor twice" because with that effort for that reward, it would seem just like a less powerful/watered down version of devour.
I'm not against it being changed at all though. Personally I'm of the opinion that it is on the survivors pretty much if the perk activates, so I feel like the totem counter would be the simplest solution. Just adding in a number doesn't seem too complicated. It would also keep the feeling of "this is totally preventable, you just have to take the steps to prevent it."
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"Another person using Otz stream as a proof, even too he simply face camped and used NOED as a last ressort. I was here during the stream and he agreed that his ''Test'' was kinda a mistake."
Congratulations, I'm not using his stream as direct proof of my entire post, I'm using it as a way of showing that a killer can facecamp and play badly and still win.
"People also ignore how he said Second chance perk of survivor need a nerf"
I've been seen on the forums before saying that DS needs a change and I literally stated that if we get rid of NED we should get rid of Adrenaline, and other second chance perks.
"I mean, survivor technicaly have a total of 12 perk slot. Even if all four survivor use DS, BT and Unbreakable (all those perk are not only real good, but counter Tunnel, camp and slug) and then each survivor still has a free perk slot, and im pretty sure one of them can use Detective to do bones."
When contemplating all of this in a perfect, 4man, coordinated swf, yes they can. They can run perkless, as shown in Marth's depip squad trial. But swf and solo are not the same, and there's a large gap in their power. Often times it's solo players who struggle with and get killed by NED, and want to have fun in the game too. So let's go by an ideal solo build:
-Kindred (to have any small ounce of coordination and fun)
-Detective's Hunch (totems)
-DS (tunnelers)
-Iron will (Spirit)
Doesn't leave much room for build variety, does it?
In an ideal world, NED wouldn't be an issue and solos and swf would be at a similar power level, both able to be stomped by a killer. But this isn't that world, and solos need as much help as they can get. Limiting their build to four perks to have a bit of fun, isn't exactly an ideal world. You can't even use pre-game chat on consoles to communicate this.
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I did indeed mean token based, my bad. I see your point there, but I've seen it thrown around and I kinda thought of it as a different version of DH. You don't get the instadowns as early, and you're limited to four, but the movement speed you get from it is significantly better and it can't be deactivated by a survivor spawning on it. Definitely isn't completely thought out, no, thanks for realising this lmao.
It also isn't necessarily just "hook all survivors twice"; if you 2 hook 2 survivors you'd still be able to insta-down the final 2 in endgame, cause instead of it being about how many you have for a certain reward, it just consumes a couple but you get the reward with limited effort. Just how much time is spent with that reward is what you work for for. I thought it'd be a pretty cool idea and would take away some pretty major complaints with it.
The totem counter I agree with, definitely. 100% my favourite option to add, the easiest there to implement, and we can leave NED as it is.
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''Congratulations, I'm not using his stream as direct proof of my entire post, I'm using it as a way of showing that a killer can facecamp and play badly and still win.''
Depend what you mean by ''win'' because according to the dev ranking, 4k won't garantee a pip, hell if you camp and do a 4k chances are you will de-pip a lot. Yea, im aware that the ranking system is full of flaw, but we can agree that how the dev consider win and loss, by the pip system. As for your solo buid, im pretty sure only a single survivor can run Kindred since the whole team got it effect, pre-game chat exist for a reason. And if you run a single perk just so it can counter a single killer, maybe it not the best perk to choose, but it you choice relly.
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Interesting suggestions...are you proposing them all or just laying them out?
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"Depend what you mean by ''win'' because according to the dev ranking, 4k won't garantee a pip, hell if you camp and do a 4k chances are you will de-pip a lot. Yea, im aware that the ranking system is full of flaw, but we can agree that how the dev consider win and loss, by the pip system."
Correct, and maybe my terms of "win" wasn't the best, so allow me to rephrase it. "I'm using it as a way of showing that a killer can facecamp and play badly and still end the match with all four survivors dead, many of them not having been able to pip and the first one camped guaranteed a depip."
"As for your solo buid, im pretty sure only a single survivor can run Kindred since the whole team got it effect, pre-game chat exist for a reason."
You know that we don't know each other's builds before the game starts right? Otherwise only one person would need to use Detective's. That's one of the point's I'm trying to make here; solo survivors need it changed whilst swf don't. And on the topic of this, are you aware of the entire existence of console players who can't do this? Or people who mute the chat? Not everyone has the ability to do this, and so will then get screwed over and lose in a cheap way to NED.
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These were very rough ideas I thought of and wrote down quickly before typing it all up into a 1.8k word monster. Like I think I mentioned in the post, having an extra 10% movement speed may be a tad bit busted. Mainly laying them all out (except for the totem counter which is the only one I've actually, properly thought through).
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Is it that hard to say '' I got kindred'' in the chat? Also if your teamate refuse to communicate well that on you, survivor outnumber the killer and their strenght should come from teaming up. If every single survivors could be able to solo the game and 1v1 killer it would just be completly one sided.
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Okay so I've said this for the third time, so I'll put at the top here instead so maybe it'll click.
"CAN I INTEREST YOU IN THE ENTIRE CONSOLE PLAYERBASE?"
They don't get this luxury at the start of the game, and many players have their messages turned off to avoid people messaging them, salty they lost.
Hence comes my first (and imo best) suggestion of adding a totem counter. Does nothing for swf who are already communicating, but allows solo players to communicate and coordinate better. Improving teamwork. The whole point of the game.
I really fail to see your point here.
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Played 1 survivor game last night because wait times were the worst ive had in awhile. Got badham. Wasn't used to new sensitivity on controller (my excuse anyway) went down quick. After that i popped a gen and used detectives hunch to break 2 totems. Someone popped haunted grounds. Checked boiler room and found one. Last gen popped i got the 5th which was noed. 1 person downed while i was cleansing it.
Killer camping basement me and a Steve got the hooked one out and body blocked to a 3 person escape. The 4th left soon as door opened. I was solo Que.
So yes it is possible to solo and remove noed.
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Remove noed, that's all you need to do.
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Is it possible? Yes. I've cleansed all 5 totems before and successfully stopped NED. The question was never "is it possible" but instead was "Is it fun and reliable to do in solo q with the massive gap between teammates?". Sure you managed to do it this game where your team is competent but next game maybe you'll be roflstomped by NED because your team couldn't do both gens and totems whilst uncoordinated. Therefore I proposed reworking the perk or adding the totem counter to help solo teams. In a case like the game you described that wouldn't do anything, but it would help those weaker uncoordinated teams do a bit better.
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As mich as I'd love that, let's try not to alienate at minimum 1/5 of the playerbase that we've just tried to bring back with map changes. Instead I propose a solo buff (totem counter) or a perk rework (everything else) to minimise unhappiness on both sides to do with the perk.
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I want noed to be changed that it is the main carry of any late game builds (like with bloodwarden And remember me) but useless with any other builds.
So maybe: after every gen completed tour hate towards survivors grows stronger. Evert time a gen is completed you gain 9 procent extra movement speed for 5 seconds. When all gens are completed this buff is permanent. Idk if this is a balanced percentage but something like this.
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If you want to start a converastion about minimising unhappiness in this game, you should start with Mori. Noed still can be countered by cleansing the totem, but Mori is just free ticket to win every game with no possibility to defend yourself against it other than not getting hooked once, but let's face it, the odds of that are next to none, especially when your teammates start to die out because of it.
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Oh believe me I was planning on makinh a similar post about moris. The only thing stopping me was that I didn't have any ways to rework them whilst minimalising unhappiness, so I started it with NED. I was also planning on doing it with maps before many were changed, and keys. But I also wanted to see how this post was received before doing another similar post.
Also if any ideas here were liked I'd then put them into the feedback section for the devs to have a proper look at them and consider it.
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Well, you are fighting a good fight, I give you that. I too want to see mori and noed either gone or changed to make this game better for everyone, but devs are just too blind to realize that majority of the playerbase despises these two things in the game, and yet they do nothing about them. But if you want to get people on board with your cause, you have to learn to convey your message with short and straight to the point easy to read text, not a novel/wall of text. A lot of people will just get turned off and leave, even if they would have been potential supporters to your cause.
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I mean, I tried. This is the shortened version of it all, so I tried to warn them and give a very brief TL;DR at the end. Usually though I make long posts to justify my thought process through it all and have something to refer back to, hence why I like making massive novels as posts.
And hey, I'll try to fight the good fight till the end. Its what I like to do.
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I have a little different approach to fight the battle. I used to avoid using noed and mori because I despise them so much, but I realized the more people hate them, the more they are willing to raise their voice to the devs when they reach the salt point of no return... So, what did I do? I began using nothing but mori and noed in every match, making games unfair, short, and boring to everyone, especially to myself. People get so angry after getting moried early into the match. Can't blame them, that makes my blood boil too. But wait, there's more, what happens when you despite all the odds manage to evade mori and get to the end game... you get Noed to death by an instant easy down. What an amazing game design *clap clap clap* - Anyway, my point is, it is not fun for me to play like this, but this is the most effective way to get people angry enough to come to the forum to write about this stuff and raise their voice to the devs.
PS: I know I play like a douche, but I am not breaking any rules. I mearly use tools provided by the devs to win my games. If the devs think these are balanced and fun, I will let them know that since I started using this build not a single game has gone by where the survivors actually managed to win the match, even when I play in rank 1. You can't outplay bad game design.
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NOED is... weird, and that's coming from someone who uses it a lot (Endgame Demo ######### rocks with it). The huge speed buff would work pretty well, it's issue is with killers who can already have stupid movement speed (phased spirit, hillbilly, nurse would get a kick out of it too). Biggest example is Legion running at 140% speed. That's nuts! For comparison, Hillbilly tuns at 230% normally during a sprint.
The token down system also doesn't work very well because of, again, endgame builds. It can be alikened to how michaels perks used to contradict eachother; NOED is an endgame perk, but if you've worked enough to use it, by that point there's no use to it.
The ruin idea sounds... okay, but pretty useless. Killer can only chase 1 surv, thats one on each gate and one doing anything in a worst case scenario. The issue is that, with this suggestion, it ramps hard between 1-2 survivors left, 4 survivors make it pretty useless, 3 survivors make it easier, 2 make it impossible for one to escape, and same for 1. It's a hit and miss, which for a totem perk is bad.
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Don't worry, I know there are quite a few holes in my ideas, these were all pretty rough drafts. The best one imo to help is just add a totem counter to the survivor team. Swf gets nothing, solos get a lovely QOL change, and people stop complaining about neod because now they knew exactly how many totems are left on the map the excuse of "Just do totems" works a whole lot better.
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You can't have a discussion about NOED (is it really that difficult to type the O), while saying that people can say "Do Bones" There is a solution. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it should be ignored.
"Some will say that NED is needed because of adrenaline, and they cancel each other out, but really? For a start, adrenaline needs the survivors to play relatively smart to get all 5 gens completed, whilst NED activates regardless."
NOED activates the same as Adrenaline and Hope. If you haven't played smart and opened the gates, then NOED is a non factor.
Also, the argument that you may cleanse all the totems and the killer may not even have NOED, is not a valid one. Many perks are gambles, or risk vs reward type perks. Some are completely invalidated based on the map you are on. Some are countered by other perks. Killers have to deal with totems being destroyed early and completely removing their perks from the match. Made especially worse because they often aren't even hidden. They may even spawn right next to a gen.
Cleansing totems is a risk vs reward action. Is it worth doing on the chance that the killer does have NOED? I imagine that it is, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. At this point you should probably adopt killer tactics to perks like DS...assume that they have it.
I personally don't use NOED, but I don't see how a totem counter would hurt. I definitely wouldn't go any further than that, though.
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How about this. Since NOED is constantly being compared to adrenalin.....
Hex: No one Escapes Death
(I dont remember the actual flavor text)
When the last generator is repaired, gain a 5% movement speed bonus.
If there is a dull totem left on the map, all healthy survivor are put into the injured state and are broken for 30 seconds. Injured survivors are broken for 30 seconds.
It keeps the one hit down, but isn't permanent. Survivors can hide then heal or find the totem.
The speed boost acts like adrenalins exhaustion. Whete it activates even when the survivor is exhausted.
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In my opinion, noed or NED as you love to say it, is one of the most weird perks in the game. It's a hex, but not straight away. Some people say it rewards bad killers, but I think it's incredibly incorrect. This is a second chance perk, a high risk but high reward machine. I think that a lot of people justify the high reward cuz the only counter is to do da bones, which is wildly incorrect. If you are getting highly pressured by the killer, you can't do totems. Other people say it's simply op, again incorrect because it informs you that there is a hex out there which causes all this mess.
How would I change ned? Well, I suggest the totem counter alongside with a small change to the perk.
Either A. You're getting notified when you're exposed (like rancor, when the last gen is done the exposed status effect is immediately revealed) or B. expose the aura of noed. That way, people know you have noed and they can instead search for it, so the risk is much higher, but the reward is dependent on your skill.
What do you think? :3
Edit: autocorrect problems, apparently when I write gen I mean ten, gotchu hommie
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No, typing NOED isn't difficult, don't worry. It's a running joke I have going on between me and some friends, and I posted about it earlier on the forums. Calm down. I'll call it NOED for you in this response.
"There is a solution. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it should be ignored."
I never ignored it and acknowledged it in my original post. But I said the argument is flawed because of solo queue. Perhaps it wasn't elaborated on enough. In a swf team on comms, NOED activating is entirely on the survivors. They deserve it for not doing the totems when they had the option to. However it's solo survivors who are often affected more by NOED because they have a harder time keeping track of all the totems and who's cleansed what. Hence why I want either solo buffed or NOED reworked. "Just do bones" is flawed because a lot of the playerbase need to use perks to have what others have for free, which shouldn't be the case.
"NOED activates the same as Adrenaline and Hope. If you haven't played smart and opened the gates, then NOED is a non factor."
I like when responding to this you ignored my part of reworking both perks, or removing the large complaints with them both.
So say the killer plays badly and doesn't get many hooks. However, there are also not many pallets remaining. The last gen is done and NOED activates; one survivor goes down. Infection procks and another falls swiftly. The survivors now need to make it to and open a gate, and escape, while the killer is able to move around the map with a speed boost. Again, if this is a swf on comms that's perfectly justified; they didn't do the totems. In a solo team this issue is much more prevelant.
"I personally don't use NOED, but I don't see how a totem counter would hurt. I definitely wouldn't go any further than that, though."
That's the first- and what I've said many times the best- solution there is. It wouldn't buff the swf but would be a nice change for the solo players. This is the idea I most want to see implemented, and then leave NOED as is.
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I mean, it's certainly something. I'd prefer to just change adrenaline alongside NED because adrenaline, if used in a swf, is absolutely brutal for a killer. I like it keeping the non-permanent one hit down, but personally then shouldn't it just be exposed status on a cooldown instead? It does basically the same thing when in a chase, but doesn't make survivors incredibly easy to track.
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Yeah, NED is a bit of a joke between me & some friends, and then to keep consistency with a previous post on the forms I thought I might as well keep it going.
"Some people say it rewards bad killers, but I think it's incredibly incorrect. This is a second chance perk, a high risk but high reward machine. I think that a lot of people justify the high reward cuz the only counter is to do da bones, which is wildly incorrect. If you are getting highly pressured by the killer, you can't do totems. Other people say it's simply op, again incorrect because it informs you that there is a hex out there which causes all this mess."
I believe it rewards bad killers because the speed boost and insta-down combined is rather oppresive, and during endgame the killer suddenly moving at 119% speed whist removing a health state can be pretty cheap to a lot of people. I believe this because of my own experience- I used to play awfully and rely on it as a crutch in endgame (This was back when Victory Cube was around). Only when I realised this and tried to change did I realise how bad that perk really is for game health (same with adrenaline imo).
The totem counter, yes, definitely, 1000000000%, that's the best idea there is to help with this. After that, we wouldn't need to change the perk since the excuse of "Just do bones" suddenly becomes infinitely more valid.
"A. You're getting notified when you're exposed (like rancor, when the last gen is done the exposed status effect is immediately revealed) or B. expose the aura of noed. That way, people know you have noed and they can instead search for it, so the risk is much higher, but the reward is dependent on your skill."
I like option A, but it being as it is now is the same as with Devour Hope- you're not shown as exposed until you'd usually know it. So I'd rather we keep that one as-is. Option B just kinda removes all issues with NED right now, so I'm not really the biggest fan.
Overall, I'd say just go for the totem counter. It's easier to implement, doesn't affect swf at all, and makes solo survivor a whole lot more bearable.
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It does maybe help on tracking and also gives survivors the choice of whether or not to heal after the timer ends, or escape
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I remember the old days without the speedboost :)
How about this? It can also be only activated when 5 gens are done (like rancor, can't be activated when the hatch is closed) a nice addition isn't it? Lastly it doesn't reward bad killers, instead it's more of a backup plan. Kinda second chance, yes. But imagine this much hate to every "clutch" survivor perk that "rewards bad players", dead hard rewards you for being injured, ds rewards you for being picked up really fast, unbreakable rewards you for being downed, ect. The perks are fine, some smoll additions won't hurt tho.
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Calm down? LOL Seriously? Do you think anyone would be upset by something like that? Or is it just a passive/aggressive thing you are doing? I just didn't understand why, but if it's a running joke that amuses you, go for it.
""Just do bones" is flawed because a lot of the playerbase need to use perks to have what others have for free, which shouldn't be the case."
But using perks to counter other perks is how the game was designed. Solo players are playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Killer don't have any way to get perks for free. Yes, SWF groups break this, but the killers are more impacted by this than solo survivors. Solo players that get in groups with 3-man swf's are benefiting from the swf even if they don't know it. Since the game was designed and balanced around solo survivors, they aren't at a disadvantage, they just don't have the advantages of swf groups. If you make changes to solo players to bring them in line with SWF groups, then you have to rework killers to make things better for them too.
"I like when responding to this you ignored my part of reworking both perks, or removing the large complaints with them both."
I didn't ignore your part of reworking both perks, i don't see them. I see adrenaline mentioned, but no rework details. You mentioned NOED being needed to counter Adrenaline, but not about using adrenaline to counter NOED. I see no reference to Hope, at all, only Devour Hope, which is an entirely different perk. Hope gives a speed boost greater than NOED's. The problem is that some players refuse to give up perk or item slots in order to counter NOED.
The increased use of NOED came directly from the nerf to Ruin. Most killers would rather not run it, but feel that they don't have a choice. If the devs could fix the underlying issues, the individual perks would be less of an issue. No one, including killers, liked the old Ruin, but the new Ruin sucks, so now we have far more NOED and Moris in killer builds. Guess what, killers would like to have more variety in their builds too. You can't just look at it from a solo survivor vs SWF perspective and ignore how it impacts killers.
To be clear, I said that I didn't THINK that a totem counter would hurt. My survivor side thinks it's a good idea, but since i don't use NOED as killer, I can't say how it might negatively impact killers that do. I mean, can't you just use a map to check to see that you got all of the totems? I get that players would rather carry med kits, toolboxes, or keys, but shouldn't there be a need for maps, as well?
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i think a totem counter added to small game would be fair honestly idk why it there now. just like i have to give up a slot to run that perk why not give up a slot to make sure u can get it.
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Any small nerf will render the perk useless.
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My biggest issue with NOED as a solo Survivor is games where I will cleanse 3 or even 4 totems and be the most heavily punished by NOED because the circus that is my team couldn't find one. Matches like that tend to feel very frustrating and unfair because I was the only person who bothered to put any effort into countering the Perk and yet I still get slammed up the butt by the local sweaty Freddy main.
Experiences like these happen so often that I think NOED should not be bound to a Hex at all, but should go with a mildly different approach: A token system based on the amount of totems that haven't been cleansed yet, for a total of 5 tokens.
- 5 to 3 tokens (0 to 2 totems cleansed): Same effects as current NOED.
- 2 tokens (3 totems cleansed): The speed boost of NOED is cut in half.
- 1 token (4 totems cleansed): The Exposed status effect is removed from Survivors.
- 0 tokens (5 totems cleansed): The remaining speed boost is lost and the Perk has no effect.
This would keep it relatively close to how it works now—a Perk that punishes Survivors for not doing bones—but makes it a lot more interactive and fair for solo Survivors without too heavily nerfing its potential. It also counters a really dumb strat of finding totems but not doing them so that if NOED spawns, you can just run to every totem you've found and see if it's lit. It also helps reduce those annoying situations where the fifth totem is stealthier than a Blendette and no one can bloody find it.
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So basically a weaker version of Devour Hope?
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I was thinking a stronger version of Thrill of the Hunt, but whatever works for you.
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Actually reading back on what you’ve posted - god no, I’d rather keep the current NOED than to enter the game with the possibility of killers being able to one-shot me from the start??
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Where in the name of Jeff did I say that?
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If zero totems are cleansed then it’s the same as current noed??
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Dingus, that's during the endgame when all the gens are powered.
I didn't realize that had to be spelled out for you.
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Adding a totem counter is one of the things that should be added to the game regardless, but I think it should also be available to Killers, too.
As for NoED being token based, well, I liked that at first, but then thought about it. Most people, unless they are supplementing their camping strategy, really only use it if they're playing a killer they aren't the best with. So for that purpose, it loses its value. Ik I for one would probably never play the Pig again, just cuz I'm not very good with her.
I wouldn't be against it just being a speed boost. But if the devs ever make it that, they would have to first make it so that the doors never, ever spawn on the same wall. I already think it's stupid that it can happen, but there's no way that gate's getting opened if a 5.0 m/s killer is cycling gates that close.
I actually kinda like it becoming timer based. Then it's still a second chance perk, gives a helping hand to someone who may not have been having the best match, and rewards steath
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Honestly NOED wasnt common... like... at all, until they buffed all hexes so that they were bassically the same on all levels. I say just revert the buff to it and leave it like it was so that only level 3 had the exposed status. I'm really annoyed by the perk but mostly because most people don't even bother to raise it past level 1 and it still completely flips the momentum of the game in the other direction. I'm willing to bet that if people are forced to raise it's level to actually make it good then it won't be as common as it's been lately. Also we're talking about a universal perk so it's not like you have to unlock a teachable to use it on your favorite killer so that also adds to its appearance rate in games
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