The last update was just a continuation of the continual decline of any skill related to killer.
I've been playing this game since 2016 and have seen balance on both sides. A year or two ago, I would get to red rank with both killer and survivor. The last 18 months have been nothing but continual survivor nerfs and the continual decline of any type of skill needed by killer to 4k during matches.
This recent patch where tons of dead zones are now on maps, and you really can't do anything as survivor, should not surprise anyone that has followed the updates or have come on these forums. For months anyone with an opinion that this game is not survivor sided has been bashed or banned from posting on here. I see 10x more posts and people getting attacked if they say anything about survivor no longer being fun or issues with the current balance. The mods have really turned this forum into a cesspool of people who have created an alternate reality of the balance of the game. The mods also seem to turn a blind eye to anyone attacking someone who argues for survivor balance. This has obviously created more of an echo chamber.
4-5 months ago escape ratios were released. Which showed overwhelmingly that this game was killer sided. To my disbelief, people still argued that even though all killers at red ranks have over a 50 percent kill ratio, some over 70 percent, that this game was still survivor sided.
Through your "balance" you have made this game just awful to play on survivor side. You have taken out the mind games. You've destroyed any type of critical thinking in the chase for killer. You've released a killer who completely destroys any resemblance of balance in a chase by giving that killer a long range gun. This game is overwhelmingly killer sided. To state otherwise is to deny reality.
I keep hearing about how killer got a few balance patches to nurse and ruin. Please. Look at the list that shows survivor nerfs compared to killer nerfs, you'll see that the list is 10x lengthier. Nobody should be surprised that this has become run in straight line simulator. We are living the meme. Expect even more nerfs to survivor in the future. They won't be done until every 10k hour lunchbox is able to 4k with ease.
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You do know survivors have been nerfed more because they’re more broken, right? All they need to make killers not steam roll is change moris and NOED. In a solo queue environment the game is 100% killer sided. A barely competent swf with meta perks would likely only lose one team member. Most survivors that play are swfs. That’s why they can’t let killers opt out of swfs. It would kill the game because there aren’t enough solo players.
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But survivors aren't broken. Stats released show that even with SWF, killer is still greatly favored. I solo about 50/50. I play with a lot of SWF when I solo. I'm at red ranked. I don't see these games where the killers are getting buried by SWF. I see a lot of stupid SWF teams that get buried.
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Even solo queue isn’t that bad IMO, I play solo exclusively and my escape rate is over 50% which feels fair and reasonable. The biggest problem with solo queue is that people make it to the red ranks when they shouldn’t, and sometimes wonky matchmaking. But if I get a team of semi-decent red rank teammates it’s not too difficult to escape.
I 100% agree about moris though, they’re long overdue for a change. That and certain killer add ons. And even just adding a totem count for solo players, even if it was added to a perk, would make NOED more bearable.
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This is probably more effort than this post is worth, but...
For months anyone with an opinion that this game is not survivor sided has been bashed or banned from posting on here. I see 10x more posts and people getting attacked if they say anything about survivor no longer being fun or issues with the current balance. The mods have really turned this forum into a cesspool of people who have created an alternate reality of the balance of the game. The mods also seem to turn a blind eye to anyone attacking someone who argues for survivor balance. This has obviously created more of an echo chamber.
Well I guess this post is getting closed and you're getting banned. In the mean time, would mind showing literally any evidence to back specific tirade this up? Surely months of this behavior has left you with quite a few examples of it.
4-5 months ago escape ratios were released. Which showed overwhelmingly that this game was killer sided. To my disbelief, people still argued that even though all killers at red ranks have over a 50 percent kill ratio, some over 70 percent, that this game was still survivor sided.
Okay. Since you're so knowledgeable about the stats why don't you tell me what a 70% kill ratio means exactly.
Does Freddy two and a half Survivors most games? Does he 4k 70% of the time? Does he get at least a 2k 70% of the time? Does he 0k 30% of the time?
Through your "balance" you have made this game just awful to play on survivor side. You have taken out the mind games. You've destroyed any type of critical thinking in the chase for killer.
Would you care to explain how exactly mind games and critical thinking have been 'destroyed'? You keep making claims and I keep seeing very few explanations or evidence of why these claims are accurate.
You've released a killer who completely destroys any resemblance of balance in a chase by giving that killer a long range gun.
Again, I'm not asking for 50 games of Deathslinger or anything. Just a description of how he destroys balance will suffice. This is just a flat statement with nary a supporting argument.
This game is overwhelmingly killer sided. To state otherwise is to deny reality.
Same as above.
Why is this game overwhelmingly Killer sided?
Because you say, without explaining how, one Killer destroys chase balance? Because you say, again sans an explanation, that all mind games and critical thinking for Killers are destroyed?
You need a supporting argument to back up your claim.
I keep hearing about how killer got a few balance patches to nurse and ruin. Please. Look at the list that shows survivor nerfs compared to killer nerfs, you'll see that the list is 10x lengthier.
Finally an actual supporting argument.
If something is broken should it just be left untouched because the other side hasn't gotten a nerf lately?
How many nerfs have been doled out is irrelevant to the argument you're making. The quality of the nerfs and of the balance between both sides is more relevant than just the quantity of nerfs.
Let me provide an example.
Say I remove the ability for Killers to injure Survivors with a basic attack. That's just one nerf.
I then halve Survivor heal speeds, increase gen times by 20 seconds, and make Survivors move at 3.5 m/s (down from 4). That's three nerfs.
Obviously Killers are now much weaker than Survivors, despite the fact that they only really received one nerf.
See? The quality is more significant than the quantity.
Expect even more nerfs to survivor in the future. They won't be done until every 10k hour lunchbox is able to 4k with ease.
Once again you're not supporting this statement with any kind of argument. Why should we expect this? What evidence supports this?
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Just make sure to leave out the quote where I state they released escape ratios 4-5 months ago that showed all killers had above a 50 percent kill rate at red ranks. 3-4 killers had around a 74 percent kill rate at red ranks. https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1658943116244837815/
How would you interpret that data? If you are going by kill rates, you have to come to conclusion that this game, regarding escape/kill rates, is killer favored. If you don't come to that conclusion, you can't interpret data.
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I get that I posted a wall of text, but I did include that quote.
That aside, you're the one making the claim, not me. You explain what a 70% kill rate is and why it supports your argument.
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This is going to be super simple.
Forums Intellectuals "The game is hugely survivor sided. All killers do is get bullied and gen rushed".
Statistics at red ranks show that your team is most likely to lose at least 2-3 survivors a game. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion based on this that it is survivor sided.
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Because standing on a gen and press M1 , looping the killer around a pallet and jungle gym require skill? You're ridiculous lol
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Show us these 'released' stats.
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So If i facecamp 2 Survivors, i have a 50% Kill Rate. Throw in an over altrustic Survivor. 75% Kill Rate.
Another example: Some survivors just throw themselfes at the hook. Do you know that i had rounds where I barely safety pipped even though i got a 3k or 4k? I just got completely outplayed and defended my last hook during endgame and the survivors decided to hookrush instead of leaving.
So tell me again, how killrates show hat the game is only killersided.
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Statistics from 4-5 months, taking about a week or two's worth of data.
That's a very small data selection that doesn't take into account a number of, rather significant, factors. For example, what defines a Red Rank game in the selection you're describing? One Red Rank Survivor? 4 Red Rank Survivors? A Red Rank Killer? All five Red Rank players?
Also what is 'most likely'? A 70% chance? An 90% chance? How did you come to the conclusion that 2-3 Survivors will 'most likely' die from the statistics in question?
I'm not the one making a claim. You are. Explain how the statistics support your position or don't use them to try and support it.
And what about the rest of your post? The claims that the mods ban people claiming the game isn't Survivor sided and allow Killer mains to harass Survivor mains? The claims that the devs are going to continue to nerf Survivors? Do you have any proof to support your statement that Deathslinger 'destroys' any semblance of balance in chases? Or that the current update destroys mindgames and critical thinking for Killers?
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I think you never had to deal with data really. BHVR mentioned often enough that there is a lot of data influencing these stats and that they stopped posting stats because "people" tend to do the mastermind interpretations without knowing anything about the background. This data may include selfkills for example, and we all know that this is a common thing. When you would observe your own games, trying to find out if a killer overperforms, would you treat a first minute selfkill resulting in a 4k as a valid input? Probably not. At least you shouldn't or I would need to start to insinuate as well.
And there is way more input we don't know about or just forget to take into account, which should be sorted out. Btw there was a single killer over 70%, not several. Unless you talk about the pure red ranks screenshot. And talking about red ranks, which are quite boosted at the moment. So is the killer side overperforming or is this still a ranking issue? Because mixed teams, which shouldn't be red ranks, are put against a red rank killer, while survivor pipping is fairly easy even with dumb moves, while killers need to maximise chases and hooks as they lose in all emblems, when they make use of insta downs or not getting everyone 3-hooked. Just another side note to why a single number just doesn't explain the world. "Interpreting data" is more than just reading, it is understanding the environment that produced the numbers.
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No. Never had to deal with data before. I just have my Masters in SLP. How about you?
This was an overall snapshot of the kill ratio in red ranks for killers. Many killers in red ranks have over a 70 percent kill ratio. It doesn't matter if 2 survivors rush hook at endgame and the killer has NOED. It still is representative of the kill ratio at red ranks.
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I agree 100%. Really all the game needs is a few tweaks to the second chance perks for both sides and likely some more map tweaks to be truly balanced. Dead zones are nasty on a couple maps now.
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Weren’t the last stats that were released before the ruin nerf?
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Those stats were released while old Ruin was still in the game. A lot of people won’t admit it but old Ruin was changed for a reason, it was way too strong of an effect. We don’t have more up to date stats than those but I would be incredibly surprised if kill rates didn’t fall following the Ruin change.
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No. Most teams are not SWF.
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Yes. Yes it does.
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If it does for you , you must be a casual player then.
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The problem is and stays swf.
in my opinion, you cant balance the game both around swf and solos.
but you got an swf in about 50% of the games, if i remember rightly (we saw statistics about that as well. Solo on pc is just over 50%).
But how will you balance? Thats the point of the 2k 2e rule, i think. A decent killer will most likly lose vs the swf he gets every second game, but win against the solos the other times. If you balance the game in a way that solo players without any sort of team play still win, how should a killer then stand a chance against swf?
If the killer is strong enough to take on a swf with coms, solo players have a really hard time to survive.
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The thing is theyre not making it easier for any side but are balancing it.
Alot of casual killers relied on ruin, now thats gone theyre struggling and wont be the same rank as they use to be before the ruin change.
Alot of survivors would abuse God-loops which take no skill, thats not making it easier for killer thats making it fair. there are plenty of strong loops if you learn to run them correctly.
TOO MANY KILLERS AND SURVIVORS ARE THE WRONG RANK. ranking is too easy and in the past there have been things that made it easier but theyre slowing getting removed. killers cant just reply on perks, survivors cant rely on god loops or 20 pallets. Dont take it the wrong way but youre probably at the rank you deserve if youre struggling so much, plenty of people can rank up fine.
just add a de-buff to swf, i admit swf is strong but i mainly play solo however every so often id play with my brother and games become much easier, a simple de-buff to groups (playing with 1friend=1.5% 2friends=3% 3friends=5%) to repair and healing, SWF is strong due to the information they can relay to each other (killers position, whos he chasing, hex locations, gens that are close, which pallets are used, perks he running, whos going for the save etc.) which for a solo survivor is alot of perks to gain that info unlike swf that dont need the perks, the debuff would simply mean you have to work better as a team, you have the advantages of information so prove your skill, debuff gets higher and jumps to 5% due to it being a full team.
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While i cant get you the source, it came out that a trial counted as "red ranks" for those statistics if the killer was red rank. The survivor rank composition didnt matter at all. (Swf rank one guy bringing his potato buddies for example counted as rank one).
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Yeah, I saw those stats as well. Apparently, those stats only applied to red rank killers (it didn't matter if they got matched up against rainbow rank survivors) and games where survivors dc or let themselves die on first hook still applied to the stats (this matters because a 1v3 is way easier than a 1v4). I would take them with a grain of salt.
They stopped posting stats for a variety of reasons, but one of the reasons was because people were asking them to nerf killers with their entire argument revolving around the stats. Just like you're doing right now.
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/yawn
Another one.
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Since nobody wants to answer your questions, i try my best to do so:
Okay. Since you're so knowledgeable about the stats why don't you tell me what a 70% kill ratio means exactly.
Does Freddy two and a half Survivors most games? Does he 4k 70% of the time? Does he get at least a 2k 70% of the time? Does he 0k 30% of the time?
70% killrate means he gets 2,8 kills on average. Dont play dumb.
Would you care to explain how exactly mind games and critical thinking have been 'destroyed'? You keep making claims and I keep seeing very few explanations or evidence of why these claims are accurate.
I think what he means are the deadzones. The battle between the killer and the survivor is pointless in deadzones, a survivor need some defenses. A good killer knows how to outplay a survivor at jungly gyms or at pallets for example, but not even the best survivor can do anything against a killer in a deadzone.. for obvious reasons.
Again, I'm not asking for 50 games of Deathslinger or anything. Just a description of how he destroys balance will suffice. This is just a flat statement with nary a supporting argument.
Deathslinger is worth a whole topic to be talked about but to cut this short: Quickscope is removing counter play and reaction to survivor. No saying he is per se broken, but in chases, he is.
Same as above.
Why is this game overwhelmingly Killer sided?
Because you say, without explaining how, one Killer destroys chase balance? Because you say, again sans an explanation, that all mind games and critical thinking for Killers are destroyed?
You need a supporting argument to back up your claim.
I dont know what that question even means. I guess he is obviously talking from his POV and statistics underpin his statement. For myself i think if you play killer really well and you play the best killers, its almost impossible to loose. I have not lost a single game as killer since quiet a while.
Finally an actual supporting argument.
If something is broken should it just be left untouched because the other side hasn't gotten a nerf lately?
How many nerfs have been doled out is irrelevant to the argument you're making. The quality of the nerfs and of the balance between both sides is more relevant than just the quantity of nerfs.
Let me provide an example.
Say I remove the ability for Killers to injure Survivors with a basic attack. That's just one nerf.
I then halve Survivor heal speeds, increase gen times by 20 seconds, and make Survivors move at 3.5 m/s (down from 4). That's three nerfs.
Obviously Killers are now much weaker than Survivors, despite the fact that they only really received one nerf.
See? The quality is more significant than the quantity.
We could say the same of survivor nerfs like MoM, exhaustion status or Ballanced Landing , just a few examples. The Ruin change was no big deal at all, it was never a great perk, it was just a perk for lazy people. Technically it was not even a killer nerf since pop and corrupt were and are better perks anyway. Your argument is invalid.
Once again you're not supporting this statement with any kind of argument. Why should we expect this? What evidence supports this?
Again, his argument is obviously his experience, and so would be your counterargument. Well, there is one more point we could talk about: statistics. Your want to talk about statistics? I dont think so. Would not look that good for you if you represent the killers standpoint.
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Just a question about you saying survivors get nerfed every time and killers dont need skill for a 4k, which you've stated has been since 2016. In 2018, if there were 4 gens left and one survivor, that lone survivor would have to do a gen before the hatch would appear whilst being hunted.
I think the hatch play now considerably helps survivors a lot more compared to that previous hatch play. Now it doesnt matter how survivors do, theres always a 50/50 chance for a survivor to escape even if they played terribly and the killer played well.
What would your thoughts be on this point?
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I agree with you, OP! Thanks for adding your voice to the collective!
This is how I feel about the balance of the game from each side:
Survivors: I want to feel that I had a chance to escape and that I wasn't set up to fail. If I don't escape, it's either because the killer outsmarted us or my team was horrible.
Killers: I want a 4k every game with no mindgames or perks stopping me despite being the power role.
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It does, actually. You have to know your timing.
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So does the killer , i don't know what's your point actually
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im worried i may have to throw on an exhaustion perk to stand any chance in chases now. I had a wreckers yard map uesterday where going any further than the zones by the shack was a death sentence due to worthless hills replacing any form of tile
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Your point was it takes no skill. I'm saying it does.
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Strawman. He never said that. I would never either. But i agree that starting with the starbreeze buyback the game just kept getting easier and easier for me as killer. It seems obvious that starbreeze was maybe forcing them to cater to the masses, which is fair from a business standpoint. And its good to see them have more control of their vision. But I'm actually enjoying killer less rhan ever due to easy one sided stomps. and solo survivor is less fun due to said killer buffs that leave swf untouched
Honestly, at red ranks, Outside of the rare 1 in 1000 god looper, perfect flashlight timing swfs I KNOW I'm getting that 4k.
And before you come at me with the usual 'lol u dun play kiler' crap that gets slung around here so often, I have over 4 times the hours as killer that i do as survivor.
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My point is its far from being killer sided like the dumb Op declare , survivor have been for so long on the top spot in term of abusing things and Op perks (still has op perks) swf etc now killer gets some general buff and survivor mains cries.
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You're talking about less than 1% of the survivor population. The stats reveal that killers were all, on average, getting 2k+. If you were having problems getting any kills then that's on you and your skill, not on survivors.
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Oh because getting 2k is enough to say killer is broken? Good killer should get 3k/4k each games but somes games goes so fast that you can't play correctly , not to mention that we killers are forced to play some perks to counter gen rush while survivors can run Broken perks like DS , dead hard and most second chance perks . We can't play every killer that we want for exemple Leatherface is dogshit , deathslinger is barely played, hag is barely played , plague can't even show her face at red ranks, of course survivor doesnt have this problem
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Which Stats, how recently, and in what context? Because every time they release stats, they tell us not to take X y z part too seriously, and people extrapolate whatever data they want from it anyway.
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This game went on for free on the PS+ a while back so it brought a lot of new players to the game. These new players then tried both sides. They queued solo for survivors and they got killed prob every game because of the killers knowing what to do. They then tried killer and then got put in with swf groups where again they killed prob no one.
This game would be balanced if players weren't using comms to win the game. Now because player can use comms in the game it went to survivor sided where they could gen rush, loop and then win easily with very little effort.
The updates are to stop the survivors winning so easily and to try and stop some gen rushing.
The toxic nature of the groups I go up against are so bad. t-bagging during chases, t-bagging at the exit gate, 3 times the survivors run the same window before moving onto next set, then loop double windows at the next set, drop every pallet around the map and blinded on all of the pallet and then once you hit the survivor another survivor will pop up t-bagging you to try and take over the chase from the other injured one. Why your chasing these for minutes gens are popping left right and centre.
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Recent form (last 6 months) killers are dominating. I play survivor main 70/30 and killers certainly have the edge atm. Its a horror game so it should be that way perhaps.
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Blah blah blah
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Dude, this also contains selfkills like "I hate freddy" or "Spirit=DC". This is just a mashup of a lot of data. If you were able to select representative games, these numbers would totally differ. And there is nothing representative on killer data, when the ranks don't reflect skills, because survivors get easier pips than killer. Would you gather "representative" soccer data from matches within the same division to make a conclusion about the strength of a team or include friendly games against regional division teams? As I said, it has a reason why BHVR decided to avoid releasing this data in the future...
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actually, i disagree in general, as a survivor running a infinite yes it works and yes it is nice although you have to think about the other side bro, and yes the killer can just leave you but once you go back to the tile they cant do anything about you if you can properly run it, i play both killer and survivor and honestly the new update seems like its balanced out the game a bit more and the devs actually kept the tile useful instead of gutting it and you can still use the tile to its fullest ability
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Although , i do agree with you that survivor gets nerfed almost every ######### update, and it doesnt get a break, I made a post about this a while ago but it was just generally how killer mains and survivor mains act against eachother on the forums Anything survivor sided killers will downvote in hopes to keep whatever they have in the game and anything killersided survivors will downvote to keep from being added, Its actually pretty childish and petty about how people are on this forum :shrug: But what can you do bro
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Just want to clarify something you made on your post. 😄
For months anyone with an opinion that this game is not survivor sided has been bashed or banned from posting on here.
I'm specifically referring to: "Anyone with an opinion that this game is not survivor sided has been... banned from posting on here"
You are free to express your opinion, but as long as it doesn't violate Community Guidelines. If you haven't checked the Community Guidelines, I'd strongly suggest doing so because I have no idea where you got the, "You will be banned for expressing your opinion"
BHVR wants everyone to express their opinions, regardless of your role, hours, skill level, and main. 🙂
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Maybe you're just not as skilled at survivor as you thought?
Honestly, that is what I tend to think about when people complain about stuff like DS and NoeD.
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yeah its not like being the killer is super stressful and survivor is just chill mode,most like this are so braindead and a joke its sad
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Self Kills are still kills. If survivors DC or self-kill, they self-killed because they were losing. They definitely didn't self-kill or DC because they were winning the match. Self-kills and DC should definitely be including in the data because you want to look at the game as a whole. If we really want to be honest, self-kills and DCs might should be counted more than a regular kill because it shows the survivor felt the game was totally hopeless.
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I agree 100% with you. This game is no fun at all with the new nerfs and killers still keep complaining. There is a difference between the game being unbalanced and the devs listening to crap killers
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I just throw in the nurse, spirit and ruin nerf. Most survivor players from 2016 feel like the game gets killer sided, because survivor takes more and more skill nowadays.
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As I’m sure you have encountered with the many replies on here where the data comes from matters so much and whenever given data of any kind first priority before even interpreting it you need to know the variables and what other variables it was taken under. As you have heard in other posts the only thing that made it “red ranks” was the killer being red ranks the rest could be rank 20s and they would have counted it. On top of the other things to think of like dc, giving up, mori and a bunch other things it’s important to think of what winning is. It doesn’t do a red rank any good if he got all 4 at the end and one hooked them all and only receives black pip at best or depip while the survivors more than likely pop just fine. I’m not saying that shouldn’t happen considering the fame only got stopped at end game but I would argue pips possibly matter more even if I hook everyone twice but they all escape but I black pop that’s fine that’s a draw not a win. 2 kills with proper amount of hooks to no fault of the killers should be draw or pop if getting more hooks or deaths. All these variables and so much more matter and over the length time they did it with things that were still in the game and not to mention directly from them they basically said you should take these with a grain of salt and not base everything on these statistics due to variables above. On pipping side as well that goes with survivor I play both sides 50/50 and sure the objective you’re working towards is to ultimately escape but your other objectives consist of gens, totems, out running killer and helping teammates pretty much all that before even escaping. If you have done certain amount of these easily survivors black/one pip even with mories consistently because it’s easy to just do those things and get your points and get out and that’s if the killers good and kills you early if they aren’t even easier.
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I don't know how people thinking urban evading around as blendette is skill, compared to mindgaming the killer for 5+ minutes straight. But you do you.
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