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Survivor hypocrisy ( sorry for the long post)
Ok the TL;DR Is a survivor tells me he would've used his powerful perks to win the game but insists I'm trash for using mine.
I still don't understand how survivors can argue about noed when they run adrenaline, bt, unbreakable, and ds while they are on comms. There's too many threads about that already but this is just an experience I had recently. It's about a match I played personally. I'll make it short as I can. Trapper on pale rose vs swf with flashlights. These guys were your standard toxic swf but I'd had a decent game hooks wise. I don't camp or tunnel unless it's situational so I'd been fair as I could be. They get down to 2 gens with all 4 of them still alive. I had this Yui on her 2nd hook beside the pier and I'm chasing a David on the pier. I down him and infectious let's me know theres a Steve running for the save so I see an opportunity to slow the game down . I go for Steve and down him at the shack while slugging David. A dwight pops the boat gen instead of saving Yui and she dies. I put Steve in the basement and dwight gets David up and they are trying to pound the last gen. Its about to pop as I get to it. I smack Dwight but he commits and gets his adrenaline and charges the basement. I follow and smack with noed before he saves Steve. David bolts and I get a 3k. Next thing I know a message pops up from dwight saying well played. I think ok this is a nice breath of fresh air. NOPE! Next message says JK sweet noed. Then he says its disappointing thinking someone is decent then see noed. So all of a sudden I'm trash because I used noed lmao All 4 of them had the meta setup with their adrenaline, ds, bt... He then goes into how I'm running infectious on a killer I shouldn't be. So I explain how it helped me during and to end the game. He doesn't buy it and insists noed is why I got the 3 of them because he was full health because of adrenaline. He says without Noed I don't get the 3k because he would've saved his friend who also had adrenaline and guaranteed I would chase his friend while he used unbreakable to get up. So this is what I don't understand. How can he say he'll use these 2 perks to win the game while complaining about me using a perk that helped me? The rest of the story doesnt matter but I tell him I wouldn't have gone for his friend but instead hook him before leaving the basement because the threat of borrowed. He tells me his buddies would then just heal and save him before I run them out the gate. That's all hypothetical since that's not what happened but again he's saying they will use their powerful perks and escape but I'm just absolute scum for using noed. Now if I hadn't had noed and that happened and i messaged him saying you only won because of adrenaline or ubreakable or borrowed or whatever I would've just gotten the ggez salty baby killer bs. The point is, they are perks in the game. I'm not gonna be shamed for using what's available to me and I don't care what they run. I'm not saying they shouldn't run adrenaline or anything. Just that they shouldn't harass me over what I ran while the 4 of them can run perks just as good and communicate the whole game. So I guess the point of this post is to ask why a killer is trash for noed but a survivor using adrenaline or something as good see themselves as skilled?
Comments
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I don't discredit anyone just for running a perk unless it's Self Care
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Its the most stupid argument ever. "YOU ONLY WON CAUSE OF NOED", but the same can be said when they win because of ds,iron will, borrowed time(BORROWED TIME SUCKS) etc etc.
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Ok and? Killers cry about ds then say "jUsT Do BoNeS" its really hypocrisy from the community really. Tho i understand making posts like this i made a post about killer hypocrisy a whileee ago which i regret making now since i was a survivor main back then
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Exactly. It's like they don't see the hypocrisy in that. Both sides are gonna run what helps them win. That's what perks are there for. You can't expect them not too. Especially because the opposing side said so. I just thought it was ironic this guy said he would've been able to use his perks to win had I not used mine.
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Personally I almost never get hit with ds since I rarely go for the person who was just unhooked. If I do I just slug and let someone else get them up. I don't fault survivors for running it though. Nobody wants to be tunneled off the hook. When it comes to noed, the argument really is to cleanse totems if you're afraid the killer has it. If they cleanse it helps the killer time wise. If they don't they risk being 1 shot. This post isn't about whether this perk or that perk should be ran. It's more about people are gonna run what they want, so if you're bringing whatever you think is going to help you win, expect your opponent to do the same.
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Yea ik just mentiong that both sides are hypocritical not just survivors
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i think most killers can agree that noed is op and morri shouldn't be in the game. Just like i think most survivors can agree that they're stupid and smell bad(burn).
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Yeah the community as a whole is toxic. Neither side will budge one way or the other. They refuse to see the other sides point of view. I'm a rank 1 killer and survivor. I see the hypocrisy more from survivors but it's definitely there from killers too. Another example I got from a survivor was a message I got after the game saying I was scummy because I "respected 360s, bt, and ds" What else am I supposed to do? I see it all the time.
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I am a survivor main, and to compound that statement, I run Claudette more than any other. I have no issues with any perk or offering in the game. Toxicity does not come from what you have or bring it is in how you play. Nothing you brought was even mildly problematic. Slugging, with one on the hook to grab another bro was not very cool. I have a real distaste for tunnel and slug. For the most part, just taking your word in the story at face value, it does not seem like you engage in that kind of play a ton. I don't know why this guy would be upset and bother arguing what could have been. It sounds like a fair win.
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I'm survivor main, i dont cry about noed
Yeah its frustrating when happens but it means we have to "do bones" lol
Noed is fair in my opinion
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I've never really complained about NOED. That said, Adrenaline is literally just an insta heal on the condition that you complete all the gens. It's not even a perk until then, so I never understood the complaint about that perk. Unbreakable also has a counter, by picking them up. DS, also has a counter, don't stay near the hook and go right back after them. Spread the pressure. That injured person is gonna go get healed anyways, and might have BT on him. Chase the other guy instead. Borrowed time, ALSO has a counter. Don't be near the hook. If you DECIDE to be near the hook, count to 15 and then hit them. Like...what makes these perks so powerful? DS is the only one that I could see as strong, but it's needed to be strong due to how a lot, not just a little, killers behave. If killers didn't behave in that manner, it'd be useless.
You have the power to counter ALL of these perks, so I don't understand the complaints against them. I'd say if there's any perk that is REALLY strong it's definitely not those perks, but another 2 perks which I won't mention because I love them to death and I don't want them to be nerfed. If I so much as mention anything strong that survivors have I'll see 20 posts complaining about it until It gets nerfed into the ground, because that's just all I see on these forums.
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I hate NoED, but I can understand it on Trapper, and Dwight made the stupid play by going off to the basement IN YOUR FACE and deserved everything he got. There is nothing wrong with using perks to help you win, but it is all in how they are used.
Admittedly I'd be flaming my teammates for not cleansing totems in that situation, since I normally get at least 2 totems, unless they're all really well hidden. Too many times have I been cheated out of an escape because of NoED and my idiot teammates not cleansing totems.
It does seem though that you would have still been guaranteed at least a 2k, since Yui died earlier and you had one in basement in endgame. NoED or not, you would have traded Steve for Dwight and had that kill. If they tried to go back, it could have easily snowballed into a full-on 4k and they would have called you a camper even though they literally ran at you.
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Ignore their heathen comments and send them to the entity's belly.
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As a couple comments above me said, that Dwight went into the basement against a Trapper with the Trapper (I'm guessing) right on his butt. There's no reason he should be complaining that you only won because of a perk.
I personally do understand when people complain about certain things. Like DS, I can see how when you use it along with another thing or two and have all 4 survivors or even 3 do that, how it can be pretty annoying. That's just minority cases though, to have all 4 survivors going DS with super stacked builds. At the end of the day, what I feel is that pretty much every perk is a "crutch" as some people like to describe it, except for No Mither maybe. While, as I said, I do understand the hate for certain perks and the arguments for changing them, I don't believe in telling somebody that they only won because of 1 perk they used or whatever. There's always mistakes that are made on either side. That's what humans do, we make mistakes.
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It's for both sides. I feel like noed is a really cheap perk and when I get kills with it I know I don't deserve them. Just like when I use sprint burst I know I shouldn't have avoided being hit there. Noed, sprint burst, decisive, adrenaline, bbq, nurse's etc are all cheap perks, but they're all extremely good so they'll be used.
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Because this is what many survivors do,that's how no one takes them seriously anymore,they only see it from their side,they dont care about both sides.Too many scummy survivors in this game.If you're complaining about noed when you use perks like ds,adrenaline,bt you just look like a clown.
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No offense to anyone, but coming from a survivor main perspective, I think noed is completely fine how it is.
The counter is the simplest thing in the world: do totems. If you choose not to, then you're running the risk.
I personally try to break as many as I can find, but that's more of an I'm-bad-at-chases-and-dont-want-to-get-no-boldness-points rather than risky noed, but I don't doubt that has saved me or my teammates hides before..
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I'm sorry but as I've explained in a post above, there are counters to all of them. I have no issue with NOED, and there are MANY ways to play around all of those perks you mentioned except for Adrenaline(Aside from don't let gens get done), which isn't even a perk until the END of a game, and is technically the same as an OLD syringe, without being able to control when it goes off. Doesn't seem unhealthy to me.
That said as for NOED, I've found that searching chests and doing totems is more of a luxury at this point. A luxury I've rarely had time to do without dying unless the killer was a potato. I think the only time I actually got out with an item trying to bring some out due to terrible survivor bloodwebs(they don't get good add ons every blood web ya know) making me take Plunderer's is when I brought a white ward to take the item out with me whether I died or not. I had another CHANCE to bring an item out but the killer had Franklin's, and I got put on the hook for trying to get it back, then someone got me off and I ran out without getting it because if I didn't I would have died.
By the way I've put a lot of good ideas out in the game that usually will benefit both survivors and killers. Generally the killers don't like it because the survivors are getting a buff alongside it. Anything that buffs survivors, despite being better for the balance of the game, many killers disagree with, regardless of whether they'd get something they desperately want. This is from personal experience. I originally played both sides but to get out of camping killer scenarios I played survivor more to get into red ranks. Either way, for any game I think balance over tipping the scales is more important. Most people don't agree with that sentiment on these forums though.
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I dont think its balance that people are arguing against, just that some people honestly feel survivors are too oppressively powerful now. That even by giving killers a buff any buff to survivors just negates it.
I personally dont slug often, and try not to tunnel purposely. I have no real complaints against perks from either side. My biggest complaint is from outside comms. The game wasn't built for them. Wasn't balanced for them. Still isn't. They hurt solo survivors as many changes can't be made because of potential abuse by comms. And killers cant get buffed properly because it kills solo.
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Noed is currently the only real powerful perk a killer has.
Everything else is detection or Gen slowdown doesn't have synergy
BBQ is only good for points but with how much of a grind this game is... mandatory
So every killer load out ends up like this
Midground
BBQ-noed-corrupt/pop-infect/whisper
Aggressive
Noed-enduring-fury-infectous/tremors
If your on a non meta killer you might use a single killer specific perk Like thana on plague. Or bloodwarden on freddy
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A couple things from this thread. With the "counters" do ds and borrowed time. Anything that involves the killer not having a way around something other than to ignore his objective is a problem. Itd be like saying the Real counter to NOED is to simply not do generators then it wont activate. Plus i think the complaints about DS and stuff are more once the gens are done, because if a gate is being opened and you get DSed then you have no options but to slug and watch him crawl out.
More to the point of the thread though, survivors like to play "efficient." What this means is that "doing bones" isnt a fair answer to countering NOED because they arent on generators. Remember this, the faster the game the easier for the survivors (generally). So any ability the killer has to draw out the game is a problem for them (hense the ruin nerf) because it made people get off the generator or at least spend 16ish seconds doing a totem and not a generator.
So why NOED is flamed so hard is because it makes survivors have to make a CHOICE. Extend the game for the killer, giving more time to set up, find people etc... Or they can rush the generators and the killer gets a surge of power in the shorter game. Survivors dont really have to WORK for a win, their role is a fairly passive one where they have large amounts of control on the progress of the game. Topped with the ability to flat out counteract or nullify killer powers with items or perks. All of this being said, the reason that NOED is hated so much is not because of poor design, it is designed to counter the quick speed of generators and groups that dont want interraction with the killer. The way to fix this is yes, "do the bones" because it creates a more interesting game for killer and survivor when both have the time to interact with eachother. If you want to tunnel someone early, get hit with decisive strike. If you want to rush the gens and 4man-escape NOED is there to help.
TL;DR NOED is supposed to stop the gen rush but entitled survivors want a 4 escape with no challenge.
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Oh trust me, a lot of killers just don't want any sort of buff survivors could possibly get despite it being more balanced. But it's everyone, survivors included. No one seems to like balance. Any suggestion that IS balanced generally either gets the silent treatment or backlash because because both sides get something. By the way it's only a minor subset of people who actually believe that survivors are oppressively OP. There have been many nerfs over time that have all added up, and this most recent one is one of the more significant buffs to killers. I was on Autohaven and only saw like 4-5 pallets one game, with big groups of empty space. Bet a lot of people(on this forum specifically, not everywhere) would think that's balanced.
I once said that killers should get full blood points for every survivor that DCs while survivors should get full blood points if the killer DCs(before the DC penalties). Got backlash, because killers would only get 8000 for one survivor DCing and survivors would all get 32000 total. This was still balanced though, as killers generally DC less, and the survivors are no longer allowed to get any more points if a killer DCs. If a survivor DCs the game is still ongoing and the killer has just as much potential to get those 32000 points. Only one argument was somewhat sound, being that it could be used to farm bloodpoints, but that would require a LOT of setup from people who don't know each other, and likely wouldn't happen because one or four people wouldn't get any bloodpoints. Strangers don't usually agree to that kind of situation considering they're not put into the same game multiple times.
Once suggested moris be replaced by a different offering that was more fun for both sides, generally removing the generator aspect of the game even. Giving the killer a customized trial, like for example if it's a Pig, everyone started with active RBTs on their heads, there were more jigsaw boxes around, giving more time for survivors to get the trap off, to extend the game and make it more about the Pig finding survivors without having to patrol gens. It got more accepted by some, but it didn't gain much traction and there was still some backlash. Understandable as it's a huge game changer.
One suggestion was to make the rank system grade what was brought in the trial and base requirements to pip/depip on everything combined. didn't gain much traction
And one of my biggest suggestions was to make survivors have only one chance to live, rather than 3, but give them more ways to lose killers in chase, perhaps some minor survivability buffs. Obviously some perks would have to be changed around, but it got pretty silent on that one too. People don't want balance, they want domination.
There's nothing about any of those suggestions that tip the scales to one side's favor, and many other suggestions that didn't favor any side generally are left behind as well. I can't think of any suggestions that didn't favor one side slightly or more than slightly that has gotten a lot of traction. Even just minor QOL changes get left behind.
Except you DON'T have to ignore your objective. If someone used BT, there's another survivor right there in your face. That's your objective. Do it. If someone got unhooked and has DS, same thing, there's another survivor right there in your face. Do your objective. Patrol gens if you're not at the hook like I imagine you are. You'll find an objective. If you REALLY want to continue being a dick to people, sure, follow that person for 15 measly seconds and down them then. BT ran out so there's your opportunity to tunnel the poor player who gets you as a killer. I'm sorry but saying you have to ignore your objective is just ridiculous. Being a jerk is not your objective. If you surprisingly AREN'T being a jerk and a survivor did it in front of their face, it's not the person's fault who was just unhooked. Go after the jerk who did it and make them pay. You don't get some award for "best killer" if you manage to get a 4k, so I don't see the reason people play like this.
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It goes both ways. Anyway noed imo is not op its just unfun, still ignore crybabies wether surv or killer
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People who use NOED in my experience never get to do anything with it anyways because they generally miss every hit that's all but guaranteed so much in game that you know when someone is using it. When it actually does come into play it's generally somewhat exciting for me. That said not when the totem is hidden super well or the killer hooks the person right at his totem. Either way it's generally used by someone who doesn't have faith in their abilities, and rightly so.
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Self Care is pretty good to have solo though. If I played SWF I wouldn't bother with it.
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What do you mean by "interesting take, if not wrong"?
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Unfortunely NOED is the calling card of a killer with little to no skill. As a survivor main, I have a pretty easy time determining when a killer has NOED early in a match based on how well or poorly they play. The more poorly they play, the more likely they have NOED. Does that mean all killers who run it play poorly? No. It's just a commonality. Like most ppl who play Leatherface camp. Do all of them? No. But enough that it's a known trait. So to some degree even having NOED gives you a bad rep as trash for who it's most commonly associated with. Also, sometimes salty players will be salty no matter what perks you bring. 🤷♀️
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Survivors really don't have any perks comparable to NoED. Like people can point to DS and Unbreakable and Adrenaline (and BT? Seriously? BT?) but none of those are really comparable to NoED.
Yes, NoED has a simple counter: Do bones! But that's just it. NoED creates an entirely second objective. And survivors don't have anything that does anything like that. And on top of it, survivors don't know that the secondary objective is necessary. They just know there's a risk of it. And they don't have any means of tracking that secondary objective unless they're on coms. There's just nothing like it for survivors.
I don't think all killers who use NoED rely on it. But some most definitely do. There's a big difference between the killer who gets one or two hooks before NoED, and then slugs for the 4K when the exit gates are powered, and the killer who gets several hooks before NoED, and uses it as cleanup.
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I think he meant Deadhard,NOED,DS,
I hope he did.... I really do...
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I wouldn't call it survivor hypocrisy but rather player mentality. The mentality stems from what they think is a cheap part of the game to use on the side they are against without seeing the same on their own side.
What players need to realise is the game is about killing or escaping and each side can use whatever the game offers to do this. This should always be accepted by all the players and quite frankly stop blaming the other side for using what they can and then calling them toxic.
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I think everyone's missing the biggest laughable point.
The guy's complaining that he got downed in one shot because a perk healed him, not a teammate. One perk simply negated the other. Without the perks in play, it ends the same.
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See there? I'll point out the difference. Cleaninsing bones...is a counter to NOED, as it removes the perk. DS...has no counters, only mitigation. You can slug them, but thats not nearly as good as getting a hook state. And if you slug them, DS is not a one time perk, it is not used up after your first hook (though I think it should be), and can be used again after you are saved a second time. If the killer takes the hit from DS, then thats the survivor free with 5 seconds to get to safety, with no chance of even mitigating the stun anymore. NOED can be cleansed AFTER it has been activated. And finally, NOED is ONE perk on ONE killer, DS can be on FOUR survivors. Its not even close to being fair.
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Cleansing all 5 totems gives the killer free pressure since that means someones not working on gens and its even more pressure if the killer wasent even using noed. Cleansing noed after its been activated means the killer already got a few hits off so its already rewarded them. Im not defending ds since i think both are op
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I called them cheap because they get you out of situations that would normally get you killed or get a kill. I'm not saying that any of them are necessarily broken, I'm just saying that they provide huge advantages without much skill. But you're entitled to your opinion.
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Actually it can be cleansed before the killer even gets to use it, as it lights once the exit gates are powered. If a survivor happens to be next to it when that happens, then no use for the killer.
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I run noed on a few killers, mostly because I don't have better perks. And yeah, the ones that complain are usually running the strongest perks they can.
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