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About Deathslinger and Counterplay ( long post :P - TLDR below )

NekoTorvic
NekoTorvic Member Posts: 778

Hiya. Ever since the Deathslinger came out, he quickly became one of my favourite killers in the game, if not outright my favourite killer. I love his aesthetic, which reminds me of a cowboy version of a hunter from Bloodborne. I love his power which more than any other killer makes me feel like a hunter going for my prey, and I love how responsive it is to aim and shoot. I've even grown to like the moment of reeling in survivors, as much as it is time consuming, it's so nice to have that one moment where you've caught your prey and you're just anticipating the moment you can smack them in the face. LUV IT.

This being said, ever since he came out, I have read several discussions stating complaints about this killer. Everything from his terror radius being confusing (which I understand even though it's never confused me personally), to him having seemingly no counterplay in chases, due to his quick ADS.

Now, I understand that liking or disliking something is entirely personal. A valid opinion to have whichever way you lean. However, in this discussion of counterplay there seems to be a weird issue where people do not agree on what exactly constitutes counterplay.

It seems to me that some people see counterplay as being: see an action happening and being able to react by doing something that negates the action that you see happening if you perform it well.

To other people, myself included, counterplay involves, there being actions that you can perform to negate, defend yourself from or oppose, what another player CAN do.

This seems similar but there is a crucial difference which is: the second definition of counterplay takes into account reads of the opponent's actions before they even take them, or if you have no way of knowing/reacting to what they can do, but also includes what the first definition describes.

Now, a full discussion elaborating on this matter would take an entire thread and post of its own, so I'll limit myself by merely stating that I believe the second definition of counterplay is generally healthier, more engaging and more skill based in multiplayer games.

Fighting games have moves and combos that are so fast that cannot be reacted to, yet they have coutnerplay of the second definition, since each player must condition the other, predict their likely actions and counter accordingly. This requires understanding of game mechanics, understanding of player behaviour and situational awareness.

The same thing happens in Dead By Daylight when you hide your red glow, or when you cannot see a survivor but must rely on intuition to predict their movement. Or when a survivor jukes a killer into mindgaming themselves at a pallet while the survivor is running away.

Some killers hide their actions as part of their base kit, Spirit the prime example which is what makes them so hard to play against.

I believe that Deathslinger has counterplay, but his counterplay within a chase is mostly based off of understanding the killer, caring for your position as a survivor, predicting, being deceptive and making him make mistakes. His ADS is fast, so you must use different tools to beat him, but those tools are no less counterplay than wiggling after hearing huntress raise her hatchet, they're just harder and more demanding to pull off consistently.


I honestly think the majority of survivors who are vocal about this killer being broken or boring may have one or more of the following three issues when facing him.

-1: Not recognizing that being caught in a bad position is on the survivor, and it's their responsibility to care for their positioning.

-2: They do not accept being deprived of information, thus requiring them to understand the killer and player they are going against to make predictions and reads.

-3: Difficulty adapting and changing their looping to how the Deathslinger works, and just looping him like any other killer.

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1 - The first one is obvious. Survivors are tiny things that can hide under the smallest piece of detritus in the map, they have a 3rd person camera that allows them to find where the killer is, and scan their surroundings to find the best position to be in should they need to run.

It is on the Survivor player to scan their surroundings, identify where the killer can come from, where they can run to, which pallets are safe, which gens are safe, and if an area is unsafe they have to decide whether or not they want to take the risk and what they will do if they get caught.

If a survivor is totally outpositioned they have to wiggle to try and avoid the Deathslinger shot that may never come. In this scenario Deathslinger has the advantage and its on the survivor for getting themselves into that position. And its on the Deathslinger, or killer player in general to try and get survivors to outposition themselves. This is fair.


2 - This is probably the longest and most complex point of the bunch. The fact that Deathslinger's ADS is very fast requires the survivor player to understand when a Deathslinger player is likely to shoot. This requires them to know how the killer itself plays, but also to pay attention and respond to how the player in the particular match is playing.

Deathslinger's harpoon is tiny, really really tiny. I've said this before and I'll keep repeating it because its true. The slightest wiggle of the survivor, the slightest tap of A or D and the harpoon will go through them and if it didn't its because the Deathslinger player predicted the survivor's wiggle, and that's on them for making a good, skillful play.

The harpoon moves at 40 m/s meaning that at max range, you have almost twice the average human reaction speed to wiggle out of the way, and even at mid range, the Deathslinger has to predict your movement, which means that he is making a read on how you will be moving, meaning he is essentially guessing your pathing. Because reads in every videogame are no more than educated guesses. Killers and survivors need to make reads during their matches, but as soon as a killer comes in that requires understanding to make predictions instead of just feeding the info to survivors it just generates a huge outcry.

Ultimately Deathslinger's shots are just like losing track of a survivor in a jungle gym or TL wall. If you know what they're gonna do because you understand how they play, then you can make a play to take advantage of the situation. A killer will hide their red glow to trick the survivor into following the routing that benefits the killer. Likewise, a survivor that knows what a Deathslinger is likely to do is capable of tricking the killer into shooting and missing.

To exemplify this point: Think of killer shack, generally a pretty dangerous tile against Deathslinger. Imagine if a survivor is about to turn the corner of the wall opposite to the window at shack. The Deathslinger player has a choice, he can wait to see if the survivor wiggles and waste time if the survivor doesn't, or he can shoot right away and risk missing if the survivor wiggles. The survivor has the same choice but in reverse. Both players have to make a read. None of them have the upper hand in this situation. They either make the right read or the wrong read and whoever makes the wrong read loses. This is fair.

Now, imagine that the killer is chasing a survivor that is very wiggly. The killer knows this survivor in particular is very prone to wiggling to avoid shots. So the killer player waits, or even better, predicts the wiggle and shoots where the survivor would be if he wiggled. The survivor wiggles and gets caught because the killer player made a prediction based on the survivors previous behaviour. This was conditioning and it was a fair read. I have done this before and its very satisfying.

On the other hand, if the survivor is particularly cunning, he could think to himself "okay, I wiggled last time, this time the killer will think I will do it again, so I won't". If the killer doesn't shoot to anticipate the wiggle, then the survivor wins cuz they'll have time to reach shack pallet. If the killer tries to predict the wiggle, shoots, and misses, then the survivor wins cuz they get distance and they made the killer waste their power. This is conditioning to make the killer make a wrong read. This is a mindgame. And its fair. I have had that done to me and I have had done that to Deathslingers.

Another example: Think of a jungle gym. The Deathslinger player, is close enough that the survivor needs to go for the pallet. Deathslinger is slow enough that they won't stop the survivor from reaching the pallet unless they shoot, but if the Deathslinger waits for a wiggle and the survivor doesn't do it, the survivor makes it to the pallet. The Deathslinger MUST take a preemptive shot. This situation is in favor of the survivor. If the survivor understands that the Deathslinger needs to take a preemptive shot they can wiggle and avoid the shot. It is however, a safer tile and it should be more in favor of the survivor. This is fair. I have caught many people who refuse to adapt this loop to the Deathslinger, but I've also lost in this tile against people who understand I need to take a preemptive shot so they wiggle. Now, I could also have just run in a straight line and M1-ed if they did wiggle, but if they didn't, they would have made it to the pallet. So its a read I have to make, and a read the survivor needs to make based on the situation and how the other player is playing.


3 - Is explained in the end of point 2. As a survivor you need to understand how this killer plays, what they're likely to do and how to effectively adapt loops against them, be confusing, be deceptive, make them think you're gonna do something and take advantage of that.



Deathslinger is not a free killer. He is slow, his projectile is finicky, his power is heavily punished by a missed shot cooldown, and a reload. Many times he can't take shots because they won't result in a hit, and if he takes the shot he will realize that it was basically a massive waste of time. The only thing he has is his fast ADS and the fact he can be very stealthy with M&A and a confusing terror radius. The trajectory of his harpoon, its tiny hitbox and janky survivor movements make it so you have to predict your shots and that takes a pretty significant amount of skill. I would ask that you consider that the Deathslinger being powerful depends on the player's ability to make him work, and its also on survivors to play around that.

If you're having issues against him. I suggest playing as him for a while and taking notes of what works against you and the sort of info and timings you need to perform well with him.

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TLDR

I think counterplay includes being able to predict what your opponent is gonna do and making a read, even if you cant react to or see their actions. I believe this to be more engaging and requires more skill to pull off consistently.

I think Deathslinger's counterplay is more predictive and relies on survivors understanding his timings, the info he needs and how he plays as well as paying attention to the opposing player within the match, making right reads and conditioning the killer into mistakes and wrong reads. Understanding his shot, cooldown and reload can also help you if you alter your looping to dodge shots that you can force him to take.

In short, he has more than enough counterplay within a chase. Its just hard to pull off consistently, cuz its different from other killers and gives you less info and time to react.