Can we talk seriously about effective real anti-facecamping mechanisms?
No, nonono, I won't buy your "but, it is a valid strategy!" quotes, so let's talk about real stuff working, ok?
Every time the killer is near X metres from a hooked surv:
- Mechanism 1: a timer appears when the killer is not moving or very sightly around the surv, upon timer depletion the killer is paralyzed by the entity for X seconds
- Mechanism 2: there is a permanent radius of X metres around the hooked surv the killer cannot penetrate
- Mechanism 3: same as Mechanism 2 but the radius increases/decreases considering the killer is face camping or not (this is particularly good, since it rewards the survs trying to save the hooked surv)
- Mechanism 4: if the killer is inside X metres for X time, the vision field is reduced likewise when the end of Legion's skill and/or lower movement speed
- Mechanism 5: the hooked survivor obtains a progress bar everytime the killer is X time around too close, when this bar is replenished the surv can press action key or mouse to release short range call for the entity that stuns the killer for X seconds
Mechanism x.... yours?
Comments
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How much time do you have on this game? what rank are you in both survivor and killer?
(yes this is needed information for this sort of debate)
What radius are you thinking off? its kinda important and has to be defined anyway should the devs go with the plan.
What happens when survivors are close by the hook and the killer knows/sees this?
What does this matter for killers who have ways of returning in seconds (spirit / hag / nurse / (huntress in a way) / hillbilly / Oni)
What if you are in the basement? this is kinda related to the radius thing.
Honestly personally I think the solution more lies in rewarding not doing it or relieving some of the "suffering" the survivors have at the hand of a camping killer, then trying to find mechanics to punish it for killers.
Killers are not in the power position in this game, doing more to stop them from being able to do anything will most likely just result in less and less killers overall (heck many will probably go on strike merely because any sort of nerf was applied towards the killer side) meaning just longer and longer queue times aka no games for anyone.
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I am very near 1k hours, I used to play killer only in the beginning but now surv (rank 7) only, so let's say around 40%/60% hours spent in each, respectively.
Radius can be only made accurate after testers try and see, but let's say 6 metres for the mechanism 2, if you mean that. The mechanism only try to prevent facecamping, it obviously needs a tune up, testing and validation, probably mixing mechanisms or providing new ones.
It would be great if any devs can provide their point of view, since facecamping is probably the top 1 issue not address and not intended to yet
As you say, rewarding should be also an ok option to add up: a killer is rewarded with extra BPs or reduced the total of BP considering an AI algorithm checking the behavior of the killer
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Rank 3 Survivor. Rank 5 Killer. I've been playing off-and-on for two years, several times a week for the last eight months.
My suggested mechanism: Hook timers do not deplete if the Killer is within a limited proximity to the hook. If it is second hook then the struggle animation does not activate until the Killer leaves the radius. If the Killer returns then the need to mash/mouse scroll/etc vanishes and the Survivor is suspended until the Killer leaves again.
I agree with most of what the previous comment said. Punishing the Killers would only lead to problems as already the Killer community feels victimized regardless of what changes are made in their favor (or how the statistics show that Survivors escape less than half of every game played). The solution would have to be nuanced and even then it would be reacted to in a total outrage... Which is why it will never, ever happen.
That said, I think that some sort of change to the hook that forced Killers to back up just a little bit in order to have the timer end would be fair method. I am not talking out of eye distance or like 20 yards away or anything. More just a little bit of a buffer.
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Here we go again...
The 384858584th post about camping
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I like this suggestion - it’s very similar to the mending effect, if you are being chased or engaged within a proximity of a killer, then the timer doesn’t start - same with Pig traps.
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I have some problems with that idea.
- I hook survivor A in the basement shack. I spot Survivor B and instead of luring me away, he decides to play the shack loop. I shouldn't get punished for commiting to that chase. Stuff like that was already tested with a paused hook timer.. survivors abused the hell out of it.
- Once all gens are done, you can't expect the killer to leave the hook, especially if it's near an exit gate.
- As long as you can pip while dying as survivor or depip as killer even with a 3k, killrates aren't a good indicator for balance.
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Well yeah, that is what happens when something isnt addressed and new players come who havent been defeated yet by the lack of action on the dev's part.
When topics like these are no longer discussed, either the problem has been solved OR the community has given up.
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Hm... I had not thought about the problems with multiple levels. This could also be an issue with a map like Hawkins.
My only answer would be that in order for something like my idea to work there would need to be some specific tweaks and such to it to counter situational things. The radius only counting horizontally (no idea if that's possible, I'm not a game dev) for example. And the solution to 2. would just be that it didn't trigger if the 5 gens were completed.
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But you can't fix camping. They tried a solution but survivors abuse it. If they manage to fix it, then DS and BT should be nerfed
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These kind of mechanics have been tested in the past. Turns out players will do everything they can to abuse them. Who could have seen that coming ?
If a killer is face camping, just deal with it. It sucks, but it how it is. Go do gens and escape. And if you are unfortunate to be the one being face camped just struggle all the way to waste the killer's time. Don't reward him by killing yourself on the hook. Most likely a killer who only got a couple of single hook sacrifices will depip. Just move on.
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Yes I know, Im merely addressing your complaint response to this post.
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Do not feed the trolls, comrades.
Regarding the potential abuse of survivors, it is not unavoidable, it is no longer a valid argument. Just add a simple rule:
- if the killer chases another survivor near the hooked survivor, the effect is disabled.
Unless there is a logical exception, inherent in a particular proposal, consider that this rule applies to all proposals.
And no. The killers do not accept that a generator is quickly repaired, so we punish the survivors who coordinate and focus on a generator. There is no reason for survivors to accept that they cannot save a survivor without necessarily taking a big risk, or that they agree to play a game where they will be 90% of the time on a hook, before dying. We must punish the killers who focus on the death of a survivor.
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I like mechanism 2. But that would mean a save safe for the hooked survivor at any time, taking pressure away, especially if the survivors take their time to rescue him. So, to balance it out, i think the same bubble should be around generators, so no generator can be worked on as long as the survivor is hooked. The other survivors have to rescue him anyway, so that seems fair. It should be a protective mechanism, not a pressure mechanism for survivors, right?
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Mechanism 6: Make the survivor exposed when he runs the killer around the unhooked survivor
like making a mechanism to counter facecamping is very hard, because if something can be abused survivors will abuse it.
It might just be better to make it a perk, like a combination of diliverance and borrowed time.
like for example: when The killer is x meters near you, you can unhook yourself and gain the effect of borrowed time. (only avaible 1 time in the match)
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Doesnt really matter if you want to buy it or not. Devs said it dozens of times already. It IS a strategy, you just don't like it when it happens to you. What you seriously need is a coping mechanism to deal with it. Or play other games, since you cant handle losing and /or getting camped. Dont get caught, downed, hooked. Caught again & downed again, thats your mechanism.
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Can’t we just punish killer as long as hatch hasn’t spawned?? Since you can’t camp with your suggestion, then that would make for easy hatch plays with a key.
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I fix generators and escape. Works well and doesn't require any additional effort from the developers.
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There is a anti camping mechanism in place already. It's a rarely used tactic. It comes down to one very simple thing that most survivors seem incapable of doing when someone is being camped. It's called playing with an intelligent strategy. If survivors started doing 2 simple things camping would not be a viable strategy.
1) If you are not the survivor being camped do not rush to unhook. Do gens. Be willing to let the hooked survivor die. If a killer is face camping every survivor not on the hook has the time to complete 1 full gen during the time it takes the hook process to complete. There would even be time to start on other gens.
2) If you are the survivor being camped be willing to die and make sure you struggle the full amount so you give the other survivors time to knock out gens.
If survivors would do those 2 simple things there would be 3 gens done by the time the killer gets his first kill. By the time they have the second person on the hook the remaining 2 survivors would easily be able to knock out the last 2 gens. At that point the killer is forced to stick with camping the second person or trying to keep the doors from being opened. Either way it is highly likely at least 2 survivors would escape in that scenario and it doesn't amount to a good game for the killer as they haven't actually done much to get points or rank up.
The ONLY reason camping is a viable strategy is because survivors make it that way. For the most part if a killer camps they can be guaranteed other survivors will run up and give them easy kills. Why not utilize a strategy where your opponents will literally hand you an easy victory?
I say all that as a survivor main that gets super frustrated watching other survivors willingly sacrifice themselves to camping killers. If survivors started doing this you would see camping become far less frequent because it wouldn't be worth it.
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lets just have survivors die on the first hook! Problem solved no more crying for you guys that don't do gens when this happens.
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You are not owed a safe rescue.
You not owed three lives just because you have 3 hook states
Punishing altruistic behavior is the killers core game play removing it leaves nothing but the chase ZZZZZzzzz
A player is camped for one reason only
The killer decides this.
Saviors can incentivize chases or leading him away from the hook etc. But he needs to choose it
The killer experience is often stressful because pressuring 4 plays across 5 gens as a single being is impossible if you make it more difficult less people will play as I see someone post about quitting every day.
Its not about being valid... its about surviors being entitled to more more more. You have dozens of perks and items to give you second chances and remove the penalties for your mistakes.
Don't get hooked if you don't like being camped
Don't run around haybales with an immortal monster after you try to run away
If you hear the terror radio hide. He's going to kill you.
If you played while afraid you'd have a better experience then scooby chase simulation sit on a hook game.
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I am very near 1k hours, I used to play killer only in the beginning but now surv only, (rank 7), so let's say around 40%/60% hours spent in each, respectively.
Radius can be only made accurate after testers try and see, but let's say 6 metres for the mechanism 2, if you mean that. The mechanism only try to prevent facecamping, it obviously needs a tune up, testing and validation, probably mixing mechanisms or providing new ones.
It would be great if any devs can provide their point of view, since facecamping is probably the top 1 issue not address and not intended to yet
As you say, rewarding should be also an ok option to add up: a killer is rewarded with extra BPs or reduced the total of BP considering an AI algorithm checking the behavior of the killer
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Anti camping measures were taken a long time ago. Survivors abused it by skirting the radius so the killer had to stay with a delayed hook timer or give a free unhook. Any anticamping mechanism can be abused and according to the past experiences, it will be.
Edit: in particular to facecamping i get that but also before that rework bubba cause thats all he has going for him right now
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Except the game isn't designed for survivors to get away constantly. Which is why the killer moves quicker by default, it is why the killer gets bloodlust tiers. Avoiding all hooks in all games is not really possible for all players. Camping is a ######### play and doing gens isn't a solution to it. That person who got camped has had their game ruined.
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Just Say you want free unhooks we all know thats what you want
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No different to the plethora of ones about DS, swf, gen speeds etc.
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The issue isn't being eliminated from the game first. The issue is having a game ruined by a killer who is ######### at the game. Standing still isn't playing a game. It is done to ruin the game for someone. I don't care if I have died first when a killer has played properly. It is ######### when you have got hooked and had to stay there for a couple of minutes waiting to die because the killer doesn't move. It isn't a strategy it is an attempt to ruin a game for someone. It is boring. Then those same players cry for longer gen times.
The game isn't to eliminate someone from the game as soon as possible in a way that isn't even playing a game. You are stood still.
I've never camped and never tunnelled and I won't ever do it either. It is for ######### players who get off on ruining an experience for someone else.
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How did you get on the hook if the killer was standing still and not playing properly?
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That’s a very bad idea. As a killer, if I find myself playing against a very heroic team that sacrifices gen repairs to all go for save, I always scout out the area because I know they will be here.
survivors should not be made useless just because one person is hooked - just like how the killer isn’t made useless for having a survivor hooked
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Not saying I want free unhooks at all. I'm saying I want to play the game as intended. The game is based on the killer downing and hooking people multiple times, whilst patrolling gens and stopping them from completing all gens and escaping. That is why the kill emblem system is based upon them doing all of these things, that is why people who camp get ######### points.
You're not playing properly when you camp. You know you're not but you're so desperate for a kill that you will play in such a manner. That play means the killer's score is #########. It means the survivors all get a ######### score as altruism is completely cut out of the game as are the majority of boldness points so everyone has a boring, pointless game. Especially the person who got camped from start to finish.
Make excuses as much as you like. Doing gens isn't a counter for camping, it's the only thing that can be done but the person who got camped had their game ruined. You're happy to ruin a game for someone else which says a lot about your character in general.
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The developers say that camping is a valid strategy. Are you saying your opinion outranks theirs on what is or isn't intended?
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Killer : Defending a hook
Noobs : Is this bannable ???
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Stop unhooking and killer will always leave hook.
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Let me flip this argument, a killer isn't entitled to a kill either.
Killers' objective is to kill survivors, whereas survivor objective is to complete generators (In order to escape).
If a killer is facecamping, then they will most likely be tunneling too. By combining the two strategies, a killer earns points for chaser, maliciousness, and devout. Whereas the victim of the killer was denied points for lightbringer, unbroken, benevolent, evader. Usually, if a killer isn't doing the combination (Or just facecamping), each survivor (that gets hooked) can get SOME points for lightbringer, benevolent, or even evader. Whilst the victims are denied of all of the emblems and a chance of safety pipping, other survivors are denied of benevolent and evader because they're mostly not being chased, and they cant get any altruism points as they can't unhook/heal. This leads to the entirety of the match and it's quality being brought down and multiple parties de-pipping/just safety pipping - which personally can be classified as ruining the game as the killer is potentially sabotaging themselves in favour of this playstyle.
On the flip side, survivors can't stop a killer from kicking generators, survivors can be PULLED off a generator which puts them into a dying state (Which imo is really dumb, and should instead just put them in an injured state). Killers have perks which can stop generators being done, ruin progress, have tracking perks when survivors work on generators. A survivor can't do anything but HOPE that the killer doesn't come to the next generator that they work on or that others are pumping out generators in the mean time.
Survivors can't dedicate to a gen progress without a risk of being pulled off and hit. What risks does facecamping propose other than preventing the killer from having gatekeeper points due to genrushing?
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Yea no all of what you said would be broken AF for one simple reason: Survivors swarming hook. Face Camping is a legit strat because you can't do anything else when they are swaming hook. With your mechanics you would completely screw over killers who don't have a choice but too camp. Whether you like it or not the best way too stop a camper is too do gens. he'll either keep camping and depip or he'll start pressuring gens. These changes would never work and would break the game.
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My mechanism A to Z. Run kindred work on gens .
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Some killers can quite literally do that, spirit, nurse, ghostface, deathslinger, pig.. lol Are you forgetting abilities that prevent terror radius, or that they can appear anywhere, or that they have a low terror radius?
And no, in fact, no one is entitled to ANYTHING in the game. You have to earn that - but you shoulddn't sabotage the game and yourself in favour of getting another thing in the match.
Killers have insta-downs, perks that make survivors exposed for unhooking - rendering a perk like BT useless in both aspects (the rescuer and the victim). If a survivor gets unhooked and downed, and placed on hook that automatically skips the entirety of stage 1/2 and puts them on the next stage. Some killers even create extra objectives in the game; hexes, traps, teleporters, etc.
DS'd? What are you talking about? they can only use decisive after they've been unhooked lol. If another survivor is body blocking then hit the other survivor? that applies more pressure on the survivor team and means that there's only TWO people doing generators (Which is good for the killer????). Most hooks spawn within a small distance of eachother, so if a hook gets sabo'd in front of you, you can probably get to another before they wiggle off, also again, if someone is sabotaging, you can hit them to stop the animation - and again to remind you, that's one less survivor doing a generator.
No, a killer doesn't kill you by hooking you. Your argument is far worse than mine because you use the argument of gen-rushing but use examples where there are LESS players working on generators and giving you the opportunity to injure them/stagger them.
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Since the patch, i keep statistics of my survivor games. So far, i had 1 4k and very few 3k games where the killer neither camped and/or tunneled and/or had a mori.
While those taktics dont lead to an 3 or 4k on default, the vast majority of killers that dont employ those tactics dont exced 2 kills.
So, the question is why is that? Can someone of you explain it? Are all killers just lazy, or is camping/tunneling necessary to get 3+ kills for a lot of killers?
Sure, i know my own games have no statistic relevance, but i see these patterns in my games.
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The game is in fact designed for surviors to get away constantly. The highest killer rate according to dev published stats is 2.6 per game. Someone is literally always escaping.
.6 difference in movement speed takes over 12 seconds in a sprint no obstacles to close a gap. If a survivor never uses pallets or sprint burst. With adrenaline after first hit this repeats once 25seconds wasted if you literally just run in a straight line. Use any method you like to give yourself 20 seconds and you've won.
Given surviors are only responsible for 105 seconds each for objective to escape
a killer has to have 35 seconds find chase down carry hook for a 12 hook game 12 times perfectly. Anytime a killer looses that 35 seconds he looses the game.
The only mechanical way for a killer to play and win is to use tunneling to eliminate players early reducing pressure and
to camp to secure kills, punish over altruism and remove the uncertainty of a extra chase.
I would argue that camping a hook state at least once in midgame is the only way to win as a m1 killer unless your skills are above top notch 24/7 streamers.
Otherwise killers are entirely reliant on player mistakes and I do admit that players make mistakes leading to a 4k. But thats the only reason 4ks are possible.
Pretend you made robots play the game... survivors would win 100% of the time basegame. You can't say the game isn't built for them.
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That's a pretty bad idea. If a team rushes the hooks and you have to defend it it punishes you for actually trying to defend a hook rather then staring down a survivor. Survivors can very easily abuse this and just loop the killer near the hook until someone comes for a save.
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I pretty much never camp, because it simply isn't a winning strategy. If I were to camp against competent players, I would get run over.
When I do end up camping, it's because survivors practically followed me to the hook and insisted on also being hooked themselves. All because they were too thirsty for unhooking points or something.
The punishment for camping is already pretty much built-in. It's a losing strategy.
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If two survivors are escaping each game, then that means that the game is balanced (In the eyes of the developers), as there should always be a balance of two kills/two escapes.
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ive gotten majority 3k and 4k after the patch and used mori once when a swf bm'd me other than that its just been me chasing down dirty survs as the good doctor. Sometimes i may "tunnel" or "camp" but only when its really gonna turn the tide in my favor also why would tunneling or camping be lazy its like a killer saying why do these survivors need to gen rush are they just lazy
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you mean you actually expect killers to put effort in to playing the game?
No thanks, much easier to just pick wraith ir ghostface and camp the hook and pick off any survivors that come to investigate. Throw on NOED as back up and its ez win, no skill or effort required
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Literally all of those mechanisms are abuseable.
Now... Why do killers camp and tunnel? Well, its simple. The game heavily rewards them for doing so.
Consider this cycle. Killer hooks someone. Finds someone and starts chasing. Someone goes for the unhook and gets it. Killer downs the person they're chasing. Downed person goes up on the hook. Repeat. At most points in that cycle, the Killer is occupying 3 survivors with things that aren't generators. Where's the 4th guy? Well, outside of certain killer power shenanigans, he's doing Gens. Which means the Killer has to race through that cycle as quickly as possible before all the gens get done. The killer may have to go through that cycle 8 times before any of the Survivors are out of the game.
Now, what happens to that cycle if the killer stacks their first 3 hooks on one Survivor? Well that guy's out of the game and then the Killer can do the Cycle with the 4th gen guy... just straight up gone. So now instead of having to outrace someone concentrating on Gens, he just has to outrace the Unhooked and Hook Rescuer's occasional brief time on gens. Which is way easier.
So how do we get Killers to spread the love? Two mechanics. First, a Skewered debuff on survivors. For each hook state the survivor has progressed, they repair X% slower. Second, a Desperation Bonus. For each dead Survivor, the remaining Survivors repair X% faster.
This means that a death hook survivor is less of a threat than a fresh one. He also represents potentially giving the remaining survivors a fairly substantial buff. Currently, a death hook survivor is merely a juicy target because one more hook on them means ~25% of your opponent's strength is just straight up gone. If X was 10% and all 3 other survivors are fresh... then that former juicy target is now ~20% of the survivors' strength and killing them will give the survivors a ~30% buff.
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Sadly, devs gave up on fixing this TOP 1 issue, thats the matter here, thats why they say "a valid stratedy", and we try to help fixing it, since it is unfair, it is a "valid unfair strategy", do you know any online games with that?
Imagine I find Ochido in game and I want to troll him... so after I hook him I stay in front with Bubba charging the whole match, so he got facecamped and nothing he can do to derank
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What about survivors running near the hook and killer is chasing them? You hook radius what have to be small to account for this
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there should be AI algorithms clever enough to find out if the killer is facecamping or not
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Ok but why implement a anti face camping mechanic when the devs have already stated it's a valid tactic?
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Otzdarva's camping experiment concluded with him saying camping was too strong. His suggestion was that as long as the killer is within x meters of a survivor and is not in a chase for x amount of time, all the other survivors would get a massive boost to generator repair speeds. I like this idea because it keeps camping during the endgame as a valid strategy. I also think that you shouldn't lose emblem progress for camping once all of the gens are finished, since there are no other objectives left to defend except for the hooked survivor.
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