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Unsafe pallets are lame... as killer
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No they favor the killer whether you loop or not. Have you actually played survivor on this map against a competent killer? Your options are 1) loop and get hit, 2) drop the pallet and get hit, 3) keep running and get hit. No matter what you do you get hit, and almost every pallet is unsafe. There are 2 in the one room with the little staircase and the one pallet by portal room that are safe. THREE safe pallets and 10 super unsafe ones.
"Still plenty possible to win, just have to play smarter and utilize more than just the environmental advantage survivors get to do it."
What "advantage"??? You have no defense against the killer. You just get hit guaranteed in about 15-20 seconds because there's no pallets and no windows to use.
"They just can't be cheesed - sorry, looped - the same way."
This says that you just don't like looping. Looping is how the game is played, there is nothing wrong with it EXCEPT when the survivor is super safe and there is no mind game. Example, Z pallets on Blood Lodge. Those are lame. But 4 walls are both loopable and can be mind gamed. They are both safe and unsafe depending on how well you or the killer play. Those are the type of loops we need more of. Not Z pallets on Blood Lodge, not Hawkins pallets. Every loop should have a mind game to it. THAT is fair.
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You are the exception not the rule. The major draw to this game for most players is the chase.
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Can you explain to me please what the appeal is in running in circles? It's something I've never understood about the mentality of people who enjoy it. Chasing, sure, I can see how that's fun. But not the running in circles part.
Not trying to be disrespectful, I genuinely don't get it.
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"Those chases seriously favor the killer only if you try to loop the unsafe pallets like they're safe. Don't... do that and you should be fine. They still work to delay the killer. They still stun the killer. They just can't be cheesed - sorry, looped - the same way."
Just don't loop an unsafe palette and you're fine? Hello? Are we playing the same game? They provide almost zero killer delay - since the killer can quickly make up any time they spent having to go around a small rock or bush or box at a much faster pace than the survivor...if they even approached the palette to begin with and weren't already taking that action because we all know how unsafe palettes work. You might get a stun off on a killer...a generous figure would be 50% of the time...because latency and killer hit priority ensure you take a hit even though your timing was accurate on your end and they were stunned. No palettes can be cheesed. Palettes can be looped and mind gamed. That's it.
Unsafe palettes were meant to be used to stun the killer, but as I previously mentioned that doesn't happen at least half the time because of how the game functions at a server level for the killer vs. the survivor. How is it fair that 1/2 or more of resources on a map meant to help survivors gain distance from the killer don't actually work appropriately because of other in game functionalities? It's really not.
You can claim you love the most killer sided map in the game and provide a vapid, vague description of how you think people can win on it...but it's not really adding anything constructive to this conversation. If you want to validate your stance that unsafe palettes are a perfectly fine resource as-is and there is nothing wrong with the Hawkins map...the least you could do is provide some actual valid strategy, game play footage, etc. Otherwise you really sound like a killer main disguised as a survivor giving people the old "git gud" argument. Quite boring.
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That is the chase. It's not just running in circles though. It's mind gaming and outplaying the killer. It's only running in circles when there is no mind game and the killer brute forces the loop. Which in itself isn't that much fun to do something so predictable and one dimensional, but you are still getting chased, so then sometimes it becomes a matter of "can I get one more loop?" If the killer whiffs the hit or respects the pallet you can usually get that extra loop.
By looking at it as "just running in a circle" you oversimplify a very complex dynamic. You might see improvement if you stop thinking of it that way and work at it, you will see it's more than that (at most loops).
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Pardon me if I am speaking an unpopular opinion, but I happen to like unsafe pallets... As a Survivor.
It's one of the reasons Hawkins is one of my favourite maps to be transported to and why I groan everytime I get Crotus Prenn Asylum or Coal Tower (which I get way too much of and I am getting sick of it). Safe or Moderately safe pallets and tile loops bore me. But hey, that's my personal opinion and it's not exactly the word of law when it comes to balancing.
I just like the element of danger of knowing you're not even safe around pallets and loop tiles. That you have to always be on high alert and sweating the whole game hoping the Killer won't ever catch you. But hey, that's just me, knowing most Survivors I team up with in Rank 1, they probably would want pallets to be absurdly safe given how much salt they tend to throw at the Killer for doing their job.
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It's fair that "50%" of the pallets aren't extra useful because survivors have more than just pallets as an advantage against the killer. As I said, the whole game is designed around giving survivors all the advantages except in a chase, where the killer is supposed to be... well, a bloodthirsty murderer. But the establishment of looping as a core mechanic removed most of the killer chase advantages whereas most of the other survivor advantages stayed intact. That led to the current state of the game, where it's far more stressful to be a killer than one of the survivors.
That's why I like maps where a bunch of the pallets aren't safe. It forces me to open the survivor game up and use killer location, map geography, line of sight, audio cues, and the like in ways I don't normally have to pay attention to on other maps.
I am 100% a killer main, and the reason is because most maps are boring to play as survivor because you are so incredibly safe. It doesn't mean that I'm guaranteed an escape or that I'm some sort of survivor god - I'm not. I don't have any interest in learning the deeper intricacies of the "mind game" (lol) of looping, which is only a mind game in the sense that your mind is what makes guesses. But even a potato survivor like me can loop well enough to make things stupid hard on the killer and win or lose I know it wasn't fair. And that's boring.
I'd love to be a survivor player or even a survivor main. But looping is godawful boring and dumb. So I'll keep playing killer until you get your way and survivors are virtually invincible as a team (if not individually) and then I'll quit - and your survivor queue times will keep getting longer.
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actually believe it or not, the game is supposed to be killer heavy. Because in the end, its a 1v4. meaning the killer literally needs to have more utility than individual survivors. meaning giving survivors another potential loop point on every map yall think is killer heavy instead of getting imaginitive because youre lazy would literally break the game and no one would want to play killer after getting to around rank 12 because you would just constantly lose. The devs in my opinion have given survivors more than enough since ive started playing. games are just getting harder and harder for killers the more that yall complain. So please either stop, or be rational.
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"actually believe it or not, the game is supposed to be killer heavy."
ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT OR NOT, it's not.
The game is a PvP not PvE. It's supposed to be balanced for both sides. Killer is already an unstoppable force that persists throughout the entire trial. Survivors can be REMOVED FROM THE GAME. That right there is why the whole 1v4 thing is not a problem. Because it's not a real 1v4. Survivors are not a team. They have the same goals but if you die it doesn't affect me except making it harder for me to survive. But you can die and I can escape. You depip while I pip. Our fates are not tied together. Hell I can sandbag you or rat you out to the killer and get rewarded for it. I can leave you to bleed out on the ground while I hide and wait for hatch. I can just YEET out the game with a key and leave you without a care. I can be as much of your enemy as the killer.
So when survivors can literally get each other killed, and can be removed from the game reducing it to a 1v3 then 1v2 then 1v1, THE GAME IS NOT A REALY 1v4! It's just not. The idea it is comes from killer mains that just use it to justify removing all the defenses survivors have so they can get more 4ks. Tell me no and you are lying.
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Just because you can be a bad teammate doesn't mean you're not on a team. This is kind of a fundamental aspect of the game. Your fates are 100% tied together as it gets exponentially harder to escape if you lose a teammate. I mean, come on guy this is core to the game design.
Nobody's talking about removing all of the defenses survivors have, we're literally just talking about keeping some pallets not safe. The game already affords survivors all the advantages in the game EXCEPT FOR IN A CHASE, where the killer originally, and ideally, would have the advantage. That's why the killer hunts the survivors in the first place. It's to isolate them and get them on their own. Pallets and windows are there to give survivors A chance in the chase, not EVERY chance.
If you want chases to all have fair and equal opportunities for each individual survivor, then you've got to be willing to give up the advantage survivors have in the rest of the game. That means, no swf/parties and a comparable Entity timer that makes non-completion of gens within a time limit a failure state for survivors and a win for the killer. It means you shouldn't be able to unhook, and shouldn't be able to heal the other survivors. If we're doing a straight 1v1v1v1 with equal and fair opportunities for everyone then you shouldn't be able to help anyone but yourself.
But we're not talking about equal and fair opportunities for everyone, we're talking about making the game easier for survivors and harder for killers. I am already a killer main because the game is already too easy on survivors. I want to have fun playing survivor. I bought this game with the expectation of being a survivor main. I want to feel tension and anxiety and fear - it's ostensibly a horror game. But in order to get any tension or anxiety I am forced to play killer. Because it's not scary as a survivor after like two games, which is about all you need to play to realize that you can just run around in a circle around a pile of garbage if the killer ever finds you. You'll either make it out just fine or spend enough time doing laps that the killer has a serious uphill battle and your team will probably win even if he gets you. Yeah, you can get better at running laps. Which means you can just get better at extending the unfair advantage. It's not fun for me to know that the game isn't a fair fight and that my opponent needs to be 2x as skilled as me to even have a chance.
This is not a killer community versus survivor community issue. I don't want more 4ks. The whole point is that I don't want the game too easy, because I want to enjoy playing survivor.
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No, it's not fair that half of the palette resources survivors have aren't ACTUALLY useful at all. If anything the killer had only worked 50% of the time or less, they would riot in these forums. Survivors have palettes and windows. That's it. Now maps have more and larger dead space zones - often flanking an area where the only resource is a palette, which is unsafe. When that one resource fails to function as it's supposed to, that's a problem. You weren't out played by a killer, because of latency and hit priority, in an area where your only resource was an unsafe palette that dictates you're going to take a hit even when you make the correct play.
Killers have plenty of in-chase advantage - especially right now. Infinite loops have been significantly reduced. There are some pretty stupendous dead zones on legacy maps now. Even before that, patches had already address window/palette combinations and reduced their spawn. There's now a lot more unsafe palettes - which we have already covered why these are killer-centric. This is before you take into consideration that killers are faster than survivors baseline and gain bloodlust the longer a chase ensues.
Outside of chases all killers have access to resources that allow them plenty of advantage at other objectives. BBQ Chilli, Nurses, Whispers, Discordance, Surveillance, in addition to killer base kit powers like stalks which will tell you if a survivor you can't see is in an area.
I am so tired of hearing that survivor is boring and easy and that's why people play Killer. This is just a blatant bias because you are a Killer main - and I say that because I have the exact same bias. I find Killer to be the far less stressful role. I don't find it to be fun or challenging. I have absolutely no issue 4king when I play Killer and doing so doesn't make me feel particularly good. So much so that when I play Killer I don't kill anyone just to see if I can do so and still PIP - and I usually do. That's not enjoyable for me, which is why I don't main Killer. And like you, I am not a "god level killer". I just don't find it difficult and I am not nearly as stressed about it because it's not my main.
You may find survivor boring, and that's fine, but there is nothing easy about being a survivor just like I can acknowledge that there's nothing other people find too easy about being Killer. And while you, as a self proclaimed killer main, might enjoy the fact that unsafe palettes are really a broken feature of the game right now - for a survivor main having nonfunctional resources take the place of functional ones when so many elements of your environment were already changed in favor of your opponent is just plain stupid and not particularly fun in any way.
Chases are what make this game so much fun and so exciting. How fun/exciting is it to have a chase end early - not because you were out played by someone - but because someone who is already baseline faster than you gets priority due to latency across resources that are already inherently riskier to use. That's not fun, it's broken.
This game has gotten exponentially more killer-friendly over the last 2 years. If you quit the game because they fix latency and hit priority - I guess that's on you. My queue as survivor is about 60 seconds, so feel free to do what you gotta do, bruh.
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"Your fates are 100% tied together as it gets exponentially harder to escape if you lose a teammate."
No. If our fates were tied together then you lose means I lose every time. But that's not the case.
Deathgarden is a TEAM GAME because you either win AS A TEAM or lose AS A TEAM. You can't escape on your own and win. In DBD you can, therefore our fates are not tied together. Just because it becomes more difficult for me to escape if you die does not mean our fates are tied together.
I can escape, you can die. I can pip, you can depip. I can do nothing productive, you can do 5 gens. What happens to you does not DIRECTLY affect me. It is indirect, as in now there are less survivors to do gens and therefore more work I have to put in to finish them. But even then, I don't even need to do gens. I can play for hatch and let the other 3 bleed out on the floor if I wanted.
"Nobody's talking about removing all of the defenses survivors have, we're literally just talking about keeping some pallets not safe."
These are the same thing. Having unsafe pallets is pointless. What purpose do they serve? You drop the pallet, you get hit. You don't drop the pallet you get hit. It might as well not even be there. It makes no sense to have these garbage pallets because it does nothing for the survivor. It just wastes a potential safe pallet spawn.
"If you want chases to all have fair and equal opportunities for each individual survivor, then you've got to be willing to give up the advantage survivors have in the rest of the game. "
Bro READ MY COMMENTS. Things I've said:
1) Gen speed needs to be slower.
2) Super safe no mind game pallets need to be changed.
Tell me in what world is that not me asking for survivors to give up some advantages? Clearly these things need to be fixed AS MUCH AS UNSAFE WORTHLESS PALLETS. Both ends need to be brought in.
"I want to feel tension and anxiety and fear - it's ostensibly a horror game."
This is only true for the first maybe 50 hours of playing the game. After that it is like any other PvP game where the players look at the game as a game. If you want a horror game go play The Evil Within. DBD is a PvP game FIRST and a horror game SECOND. To use this as the basis for any type of gameplay change is just absolutely absurd. Even other gimmicky horror games like F13 or Last Year don't maintain their horror feeling as you become more experienced in the game.
"It's not fun for me to know that the game isn't a fair fight and that my opponent needs to be 2x as skilled as me to even have a chance."
Because there are too many SAFE NO MIND GAME PALLETS. Next time you play survivor against a good killer, run to a 4 wall jungle gym. Then come back and tell me that it was easy. It's not. It takes a lot of skill to outplay the killer at 4 walls BECAUSE THE PALLET IS ONLY SEMI SAFE AND THERE IS A LOT OF MIND GAME POTENTIAL. There are other pallets like this around the game, but this is the best example.
Also if you don't like looping sorry to say maybe DBD is not the game for you. Looping is a core dynamic of the game and integral to the skill for either side. Otherwise a chase would just be survivor runs in straight line and killer follows them like a puppy. That's literally the alternative you are asking for.
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I started the game as survivor with the intention of being a survivor main. I'm not a great survivor, but I'm good enough that there's no tension, there's no anxiety, there's no real feeling of competitiveness. If killers did have some tremendous advantage in a chase, I'd be worried about getting spotted as a potato survivor, but after a couple games that quickly went away. Yeah, killers are slightly basegame faster, but hitboxes mean that I can always cut corners tighter. I've got third person so even that's easier to manage. And I probably lose most of my chases eventually anyway, but I don't feel any real incentive to actually escape. If I waste enough time, the survivors win - it's actually better if I don't lose the killer and get another 30 seconds of time.
I tried killer out of curiosity and found some sort of urgency and adrenaline. It's cool that you find it less stressful... but I'm not sure how. Different strokes, I guess, but that doesn't seem to be the general consensus. I've spent more time on killer and I'm a killer main cause that's what I play, but ideally I'd want to be a survivor.
As a killer, I don't personally care if those pallets are made safer or not. I do fine, this isn't a complicated game. I get my kills, I get my escapes, and I haven't hit a matchmaking wall. But as a killer I'm also aware that in pretty much all of my games there's at least one player eager to bait chases. As a killer I'm aware that it never really feels like I've hunted anyone down, cause most of the time survivors come to me.
I want less safety for survivors as a survivor player. I'm not a killer main cause it's my preference, I'm a killer main cause that's the least "safe" role in the game, and I didn't buy a horror game to feel safe. I play survivor games when I'm eating, for crying out loud, or when I'm watching youtube on the other monitor. I also do fine. I get killed, I escape, I haven't hit a matchmaking wall.
And to suicidefox - I AM NOT ASKING FOR CHASES TO BE A STRAIGHT LINE AUTO-DOWN OR THE REMOVAL OF ALL PALLETS. I am saying that I do not want more safety for survivors than they already currently have. I think looping is dumb and not much of a test of skill, yes, as both survivor and as killer (it's not like you make the loop you just run through it and guess which way your opponent is going to go - the skill is just pattern recognition that comes with repeated exposure). However, I don't mind that it exists at all. I just don't want that to be everything.
There is more potential depth to this game beyond looping, and that's why I like Hawkins and Saloon as both a killer and a survivor, as there's less of that on those maps and more of everything else. They're easier as killer, yeah, but that's because most players are locked into a 'loop or die' mentality. I prefer to play those maps as a survivor.
And yeah, if this game becomes completely about spinning in circles then it won't be for me. That's pretty much why I'm saying anything, cause I think this game can be more than that and I enjoy the rest of it.
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