Why are there so few ways for killers to inflict exhausted?
I really don't understand why the devs seem so squeamish about giving killers ways to inflict exhaustion.
The exhaustion status effect currently impacts a grand total of 5 survivor perks of the (soon to be) 80. While two of these are staples of the meta (Sprint burst and dead hard), I really can't see the harm in giving killers access to counters to this incredibly small but ubiquitous group of perks.
If the meta were healthier then inflicting exhaustion would be a joke: Survivors would be able to cobble up a four perk build from the other 75 available perks. As it stands I think increasing access to exhaustion could provide an incentive to experiment with other perks builds.
I want to clarify: I don't think that exhaustion perks are oppressive or a massive problem. I just think it's a part of the game that is under-explored which contributes to the currently stagnant meta- which is where the problem actually lies. I'm not strongly arguing for this to be implemented, I just don't understand why it's not even on the table.
My go to example of where this could be implemented would be certain killer add ons- for example legions 'second stab' button add ons which currently inflict blindness, mangled and broken each for a minute. Swap out any of these (frankly useless) effects for exhausted and you have a far more viable addon- not good, but better than what exists without being broken.
Or pyramid head's rare addon which gives tormented Survivors hemorrhage (this is so useless on so many levels that I don't understand how this effect is rare). A rare addon that does the same thing with exhaustion would actually impact the game and give another reason to be afraid of the torment effect (which is pretty weak by default).
Thoughts?
Comments
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Because in doing so would ignite riots across the world.. It's dangerous.
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... But why?
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I wouldn't mind a 10-15s exhaustion add-on tbh, besides I hope they change some of the Huntress add-ons that inflict exhaustion for WAY too much time (I am looking at u 90s of exhaustion)
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Because survivors love exhaustion perks. Having more ways to disable them would upset people.
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Too many Survivors use them as crutches. Doctor used to have an add-on that would inflict Exhaustion in Madness tier 3, but got removed because the devs “didn’t like it”. I don’t buy that reason at all. I think the bad Survivors won in that situation. Don’t be surprised if the other Killers lose theirs.
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Survivors want easy games. Without their exhaustion perks to rely on for when they inevitably screw up, they'd be dead sooner.
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Right, but this seems like more of a reason to push for this kind of change? Many killers (myself included) hated the idea of the ruin change, but it's removal allowed for toolbox and small speed nerfs. Ruin isnt NEEDED to win now which is healthy for the game at large.
The perks wouldn't be 'disabled' either- just not constantly in play. I don't think the suggestions I made above were overly oppressive?
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I agree here tbh. A good huntress doesn't need the help. Exhaustion infliction should be a minute at most.
Bad survivors go down even with exhaustion perks, good survivors can use them to double the length of an already long chase- dead hard is really bad for that.
As things stand it's a no brainer to bring an exhaustion perk- I can't blame people for that, but challenging this status quo seems healthy to me.
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If they needed deadhart or any exhaustion perks to assist them in a chase, they are mediocre at best survivors.
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I dunno if this is a particularly helpful line of thinking- but basically you're agreeing with my original point?
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I suppose. If you think that you're not a good survivor if you require an exhaustion perk to survive.
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The Exhaustion perks end up being crutches that give survivors re-usable second chances. Good Exhaustion addons or perks would maybe change the meta some as it would be risky to run them, but since the devs refuse to take the survivors second chances away because there would be outrage, here we are. You'd be surprised how much less time survivors could waste without all those second chances every game. There's a reason everyone runs an Exhaustion perk. There's literally zero risk, zero cost and a high game swinging effect. Meanwhile every killer perk is given a cost, a situational activation, or a long cooldown...many times multiple of these all together.
The devs keep making good survivor perks that counter popular killer perks, but all the killer perks we get to counter survivor ones are always way undertuned and not worth running. Which is why after the initial new killer hype dies down we generally never see any of the new perks again.
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I agree with this. I don't like the survivor vs killer rhetoric that the forum devolves into, but I do think it's very strange that killer perks have so many checks and balances whereas meta survivors perks don't.
Outrage isn't the worst thing that can happen- ruin, instaheals, infinites, balanced landing--there have been a lot of meta shifting changes which have been met with backlash, which have pretty much all been healthy for the game in the long run.
I think it's design space that needs to be explored for the health of the game.
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Because exhaustion addons are a waste of an addon.
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Most addons in the game are bad. I genuinely think there's room for exhaustion addons just in terms of being slightly better than the current offerings.
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I blame the "ever-changing" meta.
If every Killer could inflict exhaustion without much issue, like the others have said, there will be riots.
Imagine if Wraith, instead of Mangled or Blindess inflicted exhaustion with a surprise attack?
Or Trapper's traps inflict exhaustion when a Survivor successfully untraps themselves?
Hell, imagine if Freddy had Exhaustion Add-ons for Snares or Pallets, he would be actually broken rather than well balanced.
Point is, the ability to cause exhaustion can be game changing because most survivora always has one Exhaustion perk. Because it has zero risk but all of the rewards if you know how to use it.
Its not a gamble like Blindness where its usefulness is gimped.
Exhaustion add-ons can make the game relatively easy.
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I remember how back in the day when the survivor rule book was an actually real thing before being memed into oblivion. Using a killer power was considered a crutch and if you had to use it you weren't a good killer
It is ironic really. The talking points change, the sides change, but the mentality never does. Now exhaustion perks (Even in their current state) are now "crutches"
Ah yes survivors must only use the most "balanced" perks like Plunder but not actually because it could give them a good item with addons
The humanity. Sigh we've become a bunch of whiners
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Because exhaustion perks are a huge part of playing survivor, especially at high ranks. Giving killers more tools to just disable them would upset many people
I have been using blood echo a lot recently, primarily on legion, and I realised its a pretty underated perk, its a massive relief knowing survivors can not gain any distance with their dead hards or lithes.
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I'm not dictating what survivors "can and can't" use. I'm just saying, if an exhaustion perk is a requirement for you to do well, you're a mid-tier survivor. I haven't used an exhaustion perk outside of adrenaline and head on (head on barely counts as exhaustion) since the exhaustion nerf 2 years ago, and I've become a better survivor for it.
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Idk, i tried using blood echo on legion and it didnt seem to do much.
Though...what if there were a hex perk that applied exhaustion permanently to the last 2/3/4 peoole stabbed, like 3rd seal but adds exhaustiin instead of blindness...maybe it applies permanent hemorraging to since a hex perk with that alone would be way to useless. This would give it some neat synergies
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Thank you!
I've found this thread pretty frustrating-- I don't want to ######### about perceived skill, I don't want to remove exhaustion from the game, I literally just want to throw around the idea that exhaustion might not need such strong regulation and more access might be a healthy thing for the game.
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This is precisely what I'm imagining. I don't think there's any reason to make an oppressive anti-exhaustion perk (high tier killers don't need the help), but for killers without much going for them it's a potentially powerful tool which gives them more weapons in their arsenal.
For your examples: wraith inflicting exhaustion on a surprise hit sounds fine? You'd have to successfully sneak up and get the hit in the fairly small window out of stealth. This seems fine for a green to me.
As for trapper, keeping in mind that trapper basically has to commit to bringing a bag in one slot, this seems like a pretty weak choice for a second addon- far less powerful than some of his other effects. The addon would diversify what the trapper can do in theory but likely almost never be used. Hardly game breaking.
It would be stupid if freddy could inflict it in the way you describe, and we're pretty far off of my original suggestion of leigion inflicting the effect on a second stab. Idk, it seems bad faith to offer an example SO far from anything I've suggested.
I don't understand how you can acknowledge that exhaustion perks are so powerful that almost every survivor brings one in sentence AND say that anti-exhaustion triggers would make the game too easy for killer in the next breath. The 'ease' would be due to survivors having access to inherently uncounterable perks and would be invalidated by a more felixble meta which anti-exhaustion would encourage.
I'm not saying exhaustion should be stapled to everything in the game--but the current level of avoiding its use at all seems excessive.
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Exhaustion addons were band-aid solution to counter having multiple sprint bursts,dead hards, etc. in one chase, because back in old days you could recover from exhaustion while running. Now when it's not a thing anymore, they're not really needed and it's just matter of a time until they rework them completely.
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^ this.
Especially Berus Toxin is a BS Add-On, it is as good as the Green Add On (30 seconds or 90 seconds does not matter at all) and only costs 3000 BPs and is common as hell.
I mean, just imagine the new Instructions would have been around with old Ruin and old Toolboxes. Avoiding Ruin Skill Checks completely. Thats basically how Exhaustion Add Ons are.
They will most likely be changed over time.
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Nah, it would too less perk diversity between survivors. They either will switch to SB, because it will become the most reliable exhaustion perk in avoiding it's deactivation or they would switch it for other meta perks, which they couldn't include in their build before.
So you will see more DS, BT, Unbreakable, Iron Will, Kindred (Solos), etc. and in the end a smaller pool of Meta perks used by survivors.
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Lol why won't the devs give killers more ways to nullify key survivor perks? Probably because they want survivors to keep playing this game and killers don't need it.
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Best (first) counter argument so far.
Technically you'd only be removing dead hard (SB is first pick over lithe and BL), but sure, this my yahoo questions chosen answer.
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Because, as you mention, of the perks Survivors have access to, SO many are either highly situational, fairly weak, or both.
Those 5 Exhaustion perks that can be triggered multiple times (Head-On, Lithe, Balanced Landing, Sprint Burst and Dead Hard) see so much use because they're both very strong and reliable. Something that isn't true for most of the 80 Survivor perks (and before you jump in random forum member, yes Killers also have a TON sucky perk options - but that doesn't matter with regards to this particular thread - perks for both sides should be improved).
If BHVR did a major overhaul of all the perks and turned every perk into something viable and fun then yes, Exhaustion inflicting add-ons could actually be BAD add-ons to bring into a game. But as of now, you will meet like 1 or 2 Survivors every 4 or 5 games that aren't using Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, or something else.
Most likely, the devs are leary of the backlash they'd get from doing something like that until they actually give Survivors more good things to bring. Kinda like what happened with the Ruin nerf. They'd been wanting to do it for a while, but it didn't happen until we had about three or four other perks to help slow generator speeds in the game for some time - I don't think that was a coincidence.
That said, I wouldn't hold my breath on them adding more Exhaustion add-ons. I don't think it's something they want, out of fear of backlash or otherwise.
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Exhaustion addons should be limited to specific killers not only for game balance but also play diversity for both survivors and killers.
On the survivor side survivors can't be greedy against an exhaustion add-on clown/huntress which would force out early exhaustion perks(But rip Dead Hard).
It would also force more choices with perks like balanced landing sense where you chase the killer to changes sense you'd have to consider the fact you might lose balanced landing vs that killer before you reach a drop.
For the killer side it would mean that killer would have to play around specific perks less with them like dead hard or balanced landing but would still need to watch out and play around those perks if they are playing killers without exhaustion addons.
TLDR: The game is more diverse for everyone if they exist but are limited to only a select few killers.
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I don't know if anything has changed, but the survivor's rulebook complaint is more nuanced than just complaining about a killer doing something survivors do not like. I believe both sides complain. Survivors have certain tactics and perks that I hate and I use certain things survivors hate with a fiery passion, I think that's a thing in every game lol. It's the harassment, the shaming, and aggression you face from the other side that's the issue and the side that deals with this the most are killers. If you run a certain perk or use a tactic survivors hate then you will be humiliated, made fun of, and called racial slurs((this is not acceptable for any damn reason)) at the end of the match, worse is that you have four players doing this to you and you're just one person. Killers using certain perks or add ons earn you the badge of shame, I can't think of a single survivor perk that makes you out to be a loser than NOED does for killers. I have three years of experience with the game, but that has been my experience with Dead by Daylight, you have to use an "honor code" when playing as killer and as survivor you're not playing with such handicaps. It's strange. You're herded into playing the way the other side wants you to play. That's my take on the rulebook. A rule has to be enforced and doing things like lets say camping, tunneling, using certain add ons, or perks will see you shamed in forums or harassed after a match; it gets worse after you lose a match. Hell, I've been a survivor that was harassed by other survivors.
That being said, the killers in this thread are acting in bad faith. A lot of the issues regarding exhaustion and exhaustion perks could be boiled down to game design which has nothing to do with survivor players themselves. I'm not a fan of the insulting comments and it adds nothing
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I'd like more hindered effects
I'd much rather slow all the survivors down to reduce gen pressure and saves
And I'd like addons to inflict thana or something. Accually I'd rather addons change the power entirely like how snares turn into pallets or the docs madness taking different shapes.
Every single add on should be like that instead of weaksause number changes
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Yes! I wish hindered did something!^ ^ ^ ^^
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Not sure about having more exhaustion methods now at this point in the game. Before it was fine when exhaustion recovered whilst running, which was stupidly broken in its own right. Now they are pretty outdated and boring add-ons. I'd much rather Huntress and Clown add-ons got removed and they got something more interesting. What if Huntress' exhaustion add-ons were removed and she got an add-on that have her a crosshair or shows the trajectory of the bottles instead?
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Exhaustion perks are one of the few ways survivors can bandaid-fix deadzones. It's dangerous to remove that ability. Not all perks do this, DH and Head On don't, but both Lithe and SB at least let survivors have a chance at a chase, instead of dying because the 1 pallet in the quarter of them map got dropped early. Ability denial is never a fun thing to deal with, and the potential to deny such an important ability is... Honestly, it's like MoM. That perk just denied the killer a hit when it first came out. Not fun, is it?
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It's because exhaustion at the moment doesn't suit the game in it's current state (exhaustion doesn't tick down while running anymore etc) and it would be too strong to add to other killers. If devs tweaked exhaustion so it would suit current gamestate better it would be possible but I don't see them bothering doing that for a long while and for them its easier to just shelve the addon type for a while.
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Currently exhaustion Addons are unbalanced. They were introduced when exhaustion was recovering while running. Since this isn't the case anymore these addons should have been adjusted accordingly. But they haven't. So there is no point in increasing the number of unbalanced addons rn
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So how about just thinking about how a survivors should get rid of exhaustion while being chased? Even 5s is probably a guarantee that an exhaustion perk wont activate.
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Awesome idea. You know things are bad when less than 10% of the game's content is being used...
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I'd assume because the devs are too busy adding hemorrhage addons.
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